Wonder Elimination Thread

TM Moot · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (10)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (14)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (12)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (12)
Colossus (11)
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (8) -2
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (14)
Hanging Gardens (14) +1
Kremlin (10)
Louvre (12)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (14)
Pyramids (12)

GL - why bother really? just not enough of a bonus to bother with it
HG - wonderful now, stick it in your capital and away you go :-)

jagdtigerciv · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (10)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (14)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (12)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (12)
Colossus (11)
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (6) -2
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (15) +1
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (10)
Louvre (12)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (14)
Pyramids (12)

HS - Has become virtually universal for any build -- allowing you to quickly build any other wonder, particularly the Porcelain Tower. It is superior to the PT or GL simply because it offers more for other non-science builds.

GL - Rarely useful. I usually don't like situational wonders, since I usually play a variety and more random map types.

FaceUnderMask · Jul 13, 2011

> Because I forgot to take it off. I have now. You can of course choose another wonder to nerf. BTW, thanks for correcting that for me, I've changed it now.

Nah, I'll pass it. I made the whole -12 to UN with just a reasonable note so it's alright!

Seems like Lighthouse is the weakest link right now.
Colossus will follow I guess.

Rex_Mundi · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8) -2
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (14)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (12)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (12)
Colossus (12) +1
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (6)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (15)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (10)
Louvre (12)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (14)
Pyramids (12)

Cristo Redentor, used to be a wonder I really liked, after the nerf, I rarely care.

Colossus, 5 base gold and a gold for every worked water tile. This ends up giving me so much. Truly underrated, especially for smaller empires.

aimlessgun · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8) -2
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (14)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (12)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (12)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (4)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (16) +1
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (10)
Louvre (12)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (14)
Pyramids (12)

Well, I tried to think of reasons not to vote for Hagia Sophia, but it's such a great wonder. Firstly it's very buildable, something that is not true for all the early wonders. And it is non-situational: there is no game where you wouldn't want it, because it is so flexible.

civnoob13 · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (14)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (13) +1
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (12)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (4)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (16)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (10)
Louvre (12) -2
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (14)
Pyramids (12)

Stonehenge, although heavily nerfed in the patch, is still a very good wonder. Due to cheaper early policies, +6 culture still has a massive effect on the game and greatly speeds up SP acquisition.

The Louvre gives you two almost useless great people. You can either get a very short golden age out of it (less than Taj Mahal) or you can get a little extra culture out of it. It comes too late and does too little to be of any use to me.

Poomermon · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (14)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (13)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (12)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (12)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (4)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (17)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (8) -2
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (15) +1
Pyramids (12)

Porcelain tower gives you a massive science boost if you go for a mass research agreements in late game. It would be worth it even without the great scientist and extra great scientist points. I always try to build this unless I'm going for early domination victory.

Kremlin is an annoying wonder. You never want to waste hammers for it but when an AI builds it hurts your future conquests.

Also fixed Louvre (-2) and Hagia Sophia (+1) point totals.

sabs050 · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (15)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (13)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (12)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (4)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (17)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (8)
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (15)
Pyramids (12)

The happiness boost from Notre Dame is excellent for the medieval era when I tend to be stuggling the most with happiness.
I don't seem to get much of a happiness boost with Forbidden Palace, only 4-5 so I don't see the point of building it when other more important wonders are avaliable at the same era.

MadDjinn · Jul 13, 2011

Calouste said:
Great Lighthouse comes a lot earlier. Still, possibly the main benefit at the moment is that you can get a lighthouse without having to research Optics, which allows you to research Mining/Animal Husbandry/Writing instead. Great Lighthouse would be a lot more interesting if it also gave +1 movement to embarked units.

It is not a bad baseline to compare wonders to more or less contemporary policies though. Big Ben is pretty rubbish for example because you get only 60% of a contemporary policy with some spare change thrown in.

If the Great Lighthouse also gave +1 to embarked units, I'd still not care. Once you have logistics/supply fleets you're unstoppable, so one more movement point doesn't really matter. Sure, I don't mind an AI building it so that I can get the benefit when I take their capital, but it won't be built by me.

sabs050 said:
The happiness boost from Notre Dame is excellent for the medieval era when I tend to be stuggling the most with happiness.
I don't seem to get much of a happiness boost with Forbidden Palace, only 4-5 so I don't see the point of building it when other more important wonders are avaliable at the same era.

The Forbidden Palace works on total population. So -10% of 200 citizens = 20 happy. If you've only got 3-4 'tall' cities, you won't get much from it. It's a 'wide' empire happiness wonder. And extremely important in the later game. (to find the AI that built it of course)

Becephalus · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (12)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (15)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (13)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13) +1
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (2) -2
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (17)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (8)
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (15)
Pyramids (12)

There is nothing wrong with an extra long golden age! Comes at a really nice time too and is paired with a useful tech.

The lighthouse just doesn't seem that valuable to me most games, very situational (lots of water resources, small landmass, poor land tiles for food?). It is not a wonder I think about much, unless I rolled the English and just want to be silly.

Tabarnak · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (10)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (16)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (13)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (15)
Great Lighthouse (2)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (17)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (8)
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (15)
Pyramids (12)

Himeji went down to 15% and i dislike that a bit. Free castle ok but if i have to defend against humans they are not stupid and will fight somewhere else. I need to build it close to ennemy too.

Notre-Dame is very nice to keep expanding cities without building happiness, making time to build better stuff.

bcaiko · Jul 13, 2011

Is there a link somewhere that explains what all the wonders do for you now? I feel bad voting without knowing that.

mrlovanhey · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (10)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (16)
Pentagon (12)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (13)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (16) +1
Great Lighthouse (0) -2 GONE
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (17)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (8)
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (15)
Pyramids (12)

The Great Library is indispensable for a powerful science start, as the scientist point will come in handy time and again down the road, plus all the rest it does.

The Great Lighthouse is almost always useless to me, as I rarely go the sea route. And its not worth building so early anyways.

FaceUnderMask · Jul 13, 2011

Okay about 20 hrs passed, hence I will vote again.

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (10)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (16)
Pentagon (10) -2
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (13)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (16)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (18) +1
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (8)
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (15)
Pyramids (12)

removed lighthouse from the list
Today I will vote for HS as it is a very powerfull wonder that basically allows you to 'pre-build' Porcelain tower or Notre Dame, or Forbidden Palace.
The loser will be Pentagon. Because it comes too late for the effect given.

aimlessgun · Jul 13, 2011

Anyone voting for a medieval or later wonder as the best that is not Hagia Sophia: what is your argument against the fact that Hagia Sophia is the wonder you're voting for, but better?

You think Porcelain Tower is the best? Hagia Sophia = Porcelain Tower plus 25% GP generation in all cities, +1 GA points and +1 culture. And it costs 300 hammers instead of 400.

It's not like Hagia Sopha is on some out of the way tech you have to sacrifice to get to. It's right on the way to Education and the all important Unis.

Hakizo · Jul 13, 2011

aimlessgun said:
Anyone voting for a medieval or later wonder as the best that is not Hagia Sophia: what is your argument against the fact that Hagia Sophia is the wonder you're voting for, but better?

You think Porcelain Tower is the best? Hagia Sophia = Porcelain Tower plus 25% GP generation in all cities, +1 GA points and +1 culture. And it costs 300 hammers instead of 400.

It's not like Hagia Sopha is on some out of the way tech you have to sacrifice to get to. It's right on the way to Education and the all important Unis.

Did you forget that Porcelain Tower gives a +50% boost to RAs??????

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (10)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (16)
Pentagon (10)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (11)-2
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (16)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (18)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (9)+1
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (15)
Pyramids (12)

Spreading my daily votes out...

Considering I enjoy Defensive Games, the Kremlin is handy for protecting cities, not to mention the +4 culture on it.

Stonehenge not only has been nerfed, but is now overshadowed by Hanging Gardens and the Great Library.

aimlessgun · Jul 13, 2011

Hakizo said:
Did you forget that Porcelain Tower gives a +50% boost to RAs??????

I'm not sure why you think I've forgotten?

Here are the full stats for Hagia Sopha for a PT lover:

Hagia Sophia

Cost: 300 Hammers
+25% Great Person generation in empire
+50% addition beakers from RA's.
+2 Culture
+1 GA point
+2 GS points
Free Great Scientist

Here are the Hagia Sophia stats for a Notre Dame lover:

Hagia Sophia

Cost: 300 hammers.
+25% Great person generation in empire.
+10 Happiness
+4 Culture
+1 GA point
+1 GM point

Polycrates · Jul 13, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (8)
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (10)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (16)
Pentagon (10)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (11)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (16)
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (18)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (7) -2
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (16) +1
Pyramids (12)

aimlessgun said:
Anyone voting for a medieval or later wonder as the best that is not Hagia Sophia: what is your argument against the fact that Hagia Sophia is the wonder you're voting for, but better?

You think Porcelain Tower is the best? Hagia Sophia = Porcelain Tower plus 25% GP generation in all cities, +1 GA points and +1 culture. And it costs 300 hammers instead of 400.

It's not like Hagia Sopha is on some out of the way tech you have to sacrifice to get to. It's right on the way to Education and the all important Unis.

My argument is that it's a semantics game and the wonder I'm voting for is the one that actually gives the effect in and of itself. Without useful wonders for the HS to give relatively immediately, the HS in itself would be a bit dud.
Porcelain Tower is extremely powerful for improving RAs that are already getting to be very good value for money (still), and it gives a free tech into the bargain. That's huge, even without the extra GS points. It's also on a very attractive tech to beeline.
Kremlin is a nice wonder to be in the game, because it gives an AI a rock-solid fortress, but for the human player the hammers could be better spent elsewhere

Poomermon · Jul 14, 2011

aimlessgun said:
Anyone voting for a medieval or later wonder as the best that is not Hagia Sophia: what is your argument against the fact that Hagia Sophia is the wonder you're voting for, but better?

I do believe Hagia Sophia is the best wonder in the game. It just seems repetitive to vote for it in every post. If this thread lives long enough I expect it to be the winner eventually.

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (6) -2
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (10)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (16)
Pentagon (10)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (11)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (17) +1
Great Wall (12)
Hagia Sophia (18)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (7)
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (16)
Pyramids (12)

Great library is an excellent early wonder that gives you a nice science boost and can land you instantly into the medieval era. Problem of course is that in higher difficulties AI can grab it very early. I wouldn't try to get it without beelining to writing and having a solid early production city.

Cristo redentor was nerfed really hard. I built it in my last culture game and I barely noticed its effect. It cost a lot of hammers to boot.

TywinLannister · Jul 14, 2011

Big Ben (12)
Chichen Itza (13)
Cristo Redentor (4) - 2
Eiffel Tower (12)
Himeji Castle (10)
Machu Picchu (12)
Notre Dame (16)
Pentagon (10)
Sistine Chapel (12)
Statue of Liberty (13)
Stonehenge (11)
Sydney Opera House (13)
Taj Mahal (13)
Colossus (12)
Forbidden Palace (10)
Great Library (17)
Great Wall (13) - +1
Hagia Sophia (18)
Hanging Gardens (14)
Kremlin (7)
Louvre (10)
Oracle (13)
Porcelain Tower (16)
Pyramids (12)

My vote goes for Great Wall for simple flavour reasons! It looks awesome surrounding your empire!
CR gets the -2 because of the nerf and barely noticeable effect in game.

Wonder Elimination Thread

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