A Tough Tiny Demigod

You are America.

You start with Iron and Horses (assuming you don't move your first Settler around too much). Salt Peter will appear on the hill at the bottom of the lake just to your immediate right.

There is one square of Spices just behind the Mountains to your top right.

There is nothing but gold and the 'spare' Iron in the Mountains to the left.

To your south is one square of Silks amongst thick Forest, Jungle and Mountains.

Also to your south is the Ottomans, the Capital City being right behind the long Mountain range. Just to the right of this Capital is a city with Grapes (and later Coal and Rubber).

Directly to the south of the Ottoman Capital is the Town with the Ottoman supply of Iron, and just to the right of that some more horses.

There are no more luxuries (other than multiples of the same) in this section of the map.

In the North West Mountains are the Portuguese. They will have Iron, Gems, Furs, Incense and, later, Salt Peter, but will be unlikely to have Horses unless they invade the Zulu.

The Zulu are to the South of the Portuguese. They have no rivers or lakes and have the worst start position, vast swathes of Wetlands and Jungle separating them from the Portuguese. They have no Iron but do have Horses. They also have Dyes and Ivory, so they will have Ancient Cavalry if they get that far.

The map is shaped a bit like the letter N when looked at through a mirror, making a quick (Ancient Age) victory ever-so more unlikely, particularly with all the rough terrain.

I've completed easy wins on this map, before Railroad, from Cheiftan to Emperor but have hit a brick wall here on Demigod.

Here's the save file:

View attachment 306445

And I challenge you to show me how it's done!

The attachment is invalid. I'd love to give it a shot though. Tiny maps are not my usual preference, but it would be interesting.

Depending on the locations it may be that the game is just too tightly spaced at such a high level. With the AI bonuses they could just walk over you with their bonus troops. One time I started a Deity game with the Mongols about 12 tiles away and their back was to the ocean and only a narror strip of land connected us before joining the main landmass. Needless to say that I got the Mongol DOW at about the time I was able to turn out my second warrior.

I get a msg saying it is an invalid attachment.

View attachment TinyDemigod.SAV

I shall try again.

Edit: this link definitely works for me as I clicked it, downloaded it, and got to the play screen. Don't know about other systems, it's a civ3 Complete game.

When posting a starting save you might want to mention barbarian settings, amount of water, and climate... unless you've made them random (and from your description it sounds like pangea).

4000 found in place start on granary. Start on Alphabet at 100% science.

3500 Osman marches a spear near my capital. Luxes up to 20%.

3150 granary completes. Start on settler.

2900 settler completes. Start on scout.

2800 Found 002 on river. It starts on a granary.

2750 Learn Alphabet. 001 scout-warrior. Trade Alphabet for Bronze with Osman and 8 gold.

2710 Spot Spices north.

2670 001 warrior-warrior.

2590 001 warrior-settler. Meet Portugal trade Pottery for Warrior Code and 2 gold from Osman.

Here's my game so far:

barbarian setting: None
Amount of water: Not sure, I think it's 60% - there are no Islands.
Climate: Not sure, 3 Billion years, lots of Mountains, jungle, Forest, Hills and Wetlands... The Ottomans control most of the open Grassland in the game.
Randomness: Everything was set to Random at the start except me choosing America on a Tiny Pangea.

Your game has started exactly the same as all mine (about 30 attempts), even down to the trades if I made them, except you have chosen to build a Granary first whereas I tend to kick of with Barracks.

If this is the key I'd be delighted, it would greatly help. So first 30 turns so good. I noted 730BC as an important date for some reason on one run-through, I think it was the AI having Feudalism or Chivalry or thereabouts, so the next 60 turns should be quite nerve wracking and I'll be interested to see if you make the Republic jump, it is possible, but it's a close shave! If your aim with Alphabet is another direction I'd be interested to know what the aim is as I haven't tried anything else from that route other than the Republic jump.

I'll take a stab at Buttercup's Tiny DG game. I've never played a tiny DG, much less as the Americans, so I may get my lunch eaten, but I'll try.

4000 BC -- Move scout E & N.
Settle in place, start Alpha at 100%, but I'm not as confident as Spoonwood, so I start a warrior.

3950 -- Change my mind, swap warrior to gran, begin forest chop NE of Aabraxa (always my capital)

3350 -- Granary done.

2850 BC -- Alpha done, Writing at 80%, due in 31.
Trade Alpha to Osman for BW and 8 gold. In terms of beakers, that's a bad deal, but I figure I'm likely to need spears sooner rather than later.

2030 BC -- Two towns settled, one rax done, another in production (due in 2), and Osman demands all my gold. My Military advisor says I'm weak so I cave. He's on my list now!

1990 BC -- Writing comes in. Osman doesn't have it, but I'm probably going to need to trade it, so I go for Philo. It won't be the Republic slingshot, but maybe I can still grab a free tech.

1950 BC -- I trade Writing to Osman for The Wheel and 26 gold. I need his gold for research.

1600 BC -- Philo comes in and I grab Literature as my freebie. Begin CoL. I'll trade around with the rest of my trade bait.

I meet the Portugese, and I do some trading. Using Philo, I'm able to pick up WC and IW, two of my personal favorites.

2390 001 settler-barracks.

2190 Found 003 on spices starts on worker. Swap 002 so it uses the forest for a turn. 001 barracks-spear.

2030 001 spear-spear.

1990 002 granary-worker. Meet Zulu. Learn Writing on the interturn going into 1950 use "what's the big picture", to see what I can get for Writing. Portugal almost has it already, as they'll give me less than the Ottomans will for it. Pick up Maths and CB from Portugal for Writing. Trade Ceremonial Burial and Masonry for The Wheel and 27 gold from Shaka. Trade Writing for Mysticism and 6 gold with Osman. Trade Mysticism, Writing, and 8 gold for Iron Working and The Wheel from Shaka. Switch build in 001 to horseman. Begin research on Philosophy at 90%, 10% luxuries.

1910 002 worker-settler.

1830 001 horseman-horseman.

1790 003 worker-catapult.

1725 spot silks.

1700 001 horseman-horseman.

1675 002 settler-settler.

1650 001 horseman-horseman.

1625 swap 002 to worker. Learn Philosophy. Trade it to Osman for 20 gold and Polytheism (could take Monarchy slingshot here). Take Code of Laws as free tech. Begin research on The Republic.

1600 002 worker-catapult.

1575 001 horseman-settler. Found 004-catapult.

1550-1525 Ottomans demand Code of Laws. I decline. Osman declares on me.

1500 001 settler-horseman.

1475 Found 005. Defeat Ottoman warrior on a hill. Portugal demands Philosophy. I decline also.

1425 Defeat Portuguese warrior on a hill.

1400 003 worker-barracks. Defeat Ottoman Swordsman.

1375 Defeat 2 Ottoman warriors, losing one horseman. Pick up Map Making for Philosophy and 30 gold of Shaka's.

1350 001 horseman-settler.

1325 Osman moves spear kind of near mountain. He'll offer peace now if I want it, and will pay for it. No thanks.

1300 Bombard Ottoman archer and then kill it with a horseman.

1275 001 settler-horseman. 002 settler-catapult. I think I'll stop here. I hope this helps. This game doesn't hold much interest for me, for several reasons. Among them, tiny maps, in my experience make the AIs more likely to declare on you. Also, America, in my opinion probably comes as best suited to a histographic victory condition than anything else (with conquest and domination second and third). Tiny maps make for lower scoring histographic games. Additionally, triggering a GA will require effort, since you'll basically need to build a wonder after you've captured an expansionist and an industrious wonder. There exist other things too, of course.

Getting to The Republic first here, and then using that as trade bait, I don't think would pose much of a problem, and I think you can see how even with an "average" start like this, an early granary in the capital can work out better overall. The capital running horse-horse-settler from size 5-6 seems better to me than having it drop down to a lower size and still only putting out a settler every 10 turns.

I think I'll stop here. I hope this helps.

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Erm, not really

This game doesn't hold much interest for me, for several reasons. Among them, tiny maps, in my experience make the AIs more likely to declare on you. Also, America, in my opinion probably comes as best suited to a histographic victory condition than anything else (with conquest and domination second and third). Tiny maps make for lower scoring histographic games. Additionally, triggering a GA will require effort, since you'll basically need to build a wonder after you've captured an expansionist and an industrious wonder. There exist other things too, of course.

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Uhhh-Huh...

Getting to The Republic first here, and then using that as trade bait, I don't think would pose much of a problem

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I know, I've said that. It's still a close shave though.

and I think you can see how even with an "average" start like this, an early granary in the capital can work out better overall. The capital running horse-horse-settler from size 5-6 seems better to me than having it drop down to a lower size and still only putting out a settler every 10 turns.

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I'm afraid all I see is four towns being invaded by two superior civs. If you managed to get peace and then the fifth town survived and made a difference then I'd be all ears. But, c'mon you've not shown anything I haven't experienced.

Thanks for trying though! We don't get anywhere unless we try

So far I've had a stab at spamming warriors - this failed, spamming Swordsmen - this failed, and I've just tried spamming Knights - but this also failed, after a good long struggle.

This time I got the Republic jump, with just 2 towns and also built the Mausoleum of Molasses and the Hanging Gardens. By a very specific trail of options you can get the Republic jump by 1275BC, and I always then choose to trade all my techs at this point to try and get myself out of the Ancient Age. By doing this I had all the techs of the Ancient Age except Construction/Currency/Literature at 1275BC.

However, Construction still takes 23 turns from that point, maybe 21 running at a loss and so by the time I'm learning Chivalry at 50BC the two leading AIs are already past both Education and Gunpowder and the Ottomans are already starting to eat up the map.

By 430AD I was ready for action and took two towns, one Portuguese and one Ottoman, which I am able to hold until around 800AD when the Ottoman forces are just too relentless, even with a complete dogpile against them and me with an 80% tax economy and rushing Knights/Pikemen/Trebuchets.

There are many variations that could be played around with at the early stage and I'm not saying my method has worked, as it hasn't, but in all my methods I have tried to attack the Ottomans before Military Tradition, except one, where it attacked me anyway, though I didn't try the 'bribe every 7 turns' method.

However, the route to the Republic jump goes something like this if you want to do that before playing around with methods:

1. Build city and set tech to Alphabet at 100%. Send scout out as if in an across-board direction (diagonal-horizontal) with an occasional north bump and get to the Portuguese ASAP. Have your Worker build roads and mines along the two Bonus Grassland squares and then move it directly to the Sugar to build a road and mine ready for population No.3.

2. On meeting the Portuguese trade Masonry for Alphabet (you will have about 7 turns left so have all his gold as well). Start learning Writing. Move the Scout over the Mountains to the south of the Portuguese hub and soon come across the Zulu Scout. Say hi, swap anything you like then disband the Scout. Back at base it's best to build 3 Warriors as for some reason 3 keeps the Ottomans Quiet but 2 seems to bring them to your border. 3 Warriors plus one Worker keeps the tech at 100%, keeping the Scout beyond the Zulu meet is tech at 90%. This is because your city is now near making it's 1st Settler.

3. Build Wealth until the Settler production time matches reaching population 4. The worker moves from the Sugar to the Bonus Grassland to it's south and builds a road then moves to the Bonus Grassland next to the city and builds a road which will complete just as the Settler arrives. Capital stays at population of 2 and the Settler moves into the blank Grassland next to the Tobacco in one move ready to Settle next go. Send your spare Warrior with the Settler.

4. Build a road on the tobacco next to the Second city and remember to keep the Sugar free for the capital. Move the Worker to the Plains next to the rive and build road and irrigation.

5. Let the Capital grow but don't let the Second City get past population 3, in fact, at 3 turn one citizen into a Scientist and stop production. This will keep the slider at 100% tech or 10% lux and 90% tech and then just move the slider as needs be for the Capital. What you produce from this point is anyone's guess, but to be sure of the Republic jump I wouldn't go for any more Settlers, but one more may be possible.

6. Throughout this time just cave in to any demands from AI civs or if they offer deals, try and get as much as possible. Never go out of your way to trade anything until you've done the jump. A war with either Portugal or Zulu is ok, you can normally negotiate peace by the time they arrive, but a war with Ottomans would be catastrophic for the jump.

(It's during the gap between completing my first Settler and getting the jump where I don't want to build anything that will cost upkeep, hence I build a Wonder which, by the time I get the jump, is just slightly over the requirement for the Mausoleum, which, if I delay the revolution by one turn to let the mausoleum appear, makes the revolution so much easier on my Capital's population. You could choose Wealth and try to build Embassies or any number of other options, maybe even try for a second Settler, but I'm not sure that's possible for the jump).

Anyway, hope that helps someone have some fun with this map.

Edit: I suppose one could try to hold onto the Wonder Sheilds and try to get Literature and jump the Great Library. I shall try this on the next run-through as this was something that someone has recommended trying. This might well provide Chivalry early enough to make a difference. The problem here will be timing the collecting of Shields so one doesn't complete too early but maintains citizens working the high value worked tiles. This would also require a big lux-slider percentage which, if I remember correctly, puts literature at 17 turns, so the timing would be crucial. This will also mean less cash for the big fight when it comes. Still worth a punt!

Buttercup said:

Erm, not really

Uhhh-Huh...


I know, I've said that. It's still a close shave though.


I'm afraid all I see is four towns being invaded by two superior civs. If you managed to get peace and then the fifth town survived and made a difference then I'd be all ears. But, c'mon you've not shown anything I haven't experienced.

Thanks for trying though! We don't get anywhere unless we try

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I have 5 towns there, and 2 settlers, and military enough to defend. The "5th" town has also survived. I could pay for a little peace with the Ottomans, and I could have acceded to their demands, but I didn't choose to, because I had enough military to defend myself. No Portuguese units have really made it my way, except for the warrior that was already around before the war started. Building the granary early helps, and putting out settlers from size 5-6 also helps, as you can build military in the interim turns. That said, I could have foregone the settlers, and just put out more military and soon enough taken an Ottoman town. It also comes as clear that I've shown you something that you haven't experienced as you said

Buttercup said:

Your game has started exactly the same as all mine (about 30 attempts), even down to the trades if I made them, except you have chosen to build a Granary first whereas I tend to kick of with Barracks.

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On top of this you said in another thread you only managed to get 4 towns out by Military Tradition, when I have 5 here already in my latest save, and can have 7 in 6 or so turns quite easily. On top of this, I have put artillery type units out, which from what you've said elsewhere seems highly unlikely. See these saves also:

Yes spoonwood there are tuns of 'options', I've taken the Ottoman Capital with Warriors and 1 town (my Capital) before, but they key here is finding a way to 'win the game', not find a way to say stuff to Buttercup about other games people have played on other maps with other civs in different scenarios.


Anyway, I just tried the Great Library jump. I pumped out 5 towns (without granaries) and got the Great Library which got me all the techs up to Education and Gunpowder. This time I was fighting at about 50BC with Knights and Crusaders, but still unable to plough through to the Ottoman Capital, even with a dogpile on the Ottomans. I took the two towns on the way to it but as soon as I got near the Capital it seemed to have an everlasting supply of Archers and Knights. On top of this, the Portuguese signed for peace right at that moment then declared on me. Game over.

Also, for this run, I chose to go Republic once the Library provided it. My normal attack method quickly got me a lot of unhappy faces so for the next try I might have a go at the tedious method of building up a big and varied stack of everything available then just marching it to see how far it gets, new units running to join as they are produced and a token defence left at home. Either that or maybe just sticking to Monarchy or Despotism.

At one point this method felt like it was really getting somewhere, but that soon vanished. Again, getting a jump is all well and good, but if you haven't the Production or Beakers to match your new tech status and can't dent the map with your current military units then it's still a bit of a dead end. Saying that, I might try keeping quiet during the next run, not joining the big war and seeing if I can silently build my way to Military Tradition (though I'm not sure even that would work against non-stop Archers and Knights, good for taking down cities when one gets to them though).

Also, another big irritation, in this run, and when doing the Republic jump, I have not been provided any Scientific Leaders or Military Leaders, the two great boons for Humans in tough situations. The only time I've had leaders at Demigod is from Swordsmen in the Ancient Age from spamming Swordsmen, which is a high price to pay for a military leaders as one will miss both the Republic and Great Library jump doing this.

Still, plenty of avenues to explore.

Please post a relevant save from your war turns. What sort of force do you bring to the table here? If attacking in the middle ages or after, I suggest expecting at least three defensive units in any town that you try to take, and probably 5 or 6 at least in the capital. I'd say you probably want to have a stack of 7, 8 or so knights when going after a border town, and you might want to bring your full stack of catapults/trecbuchets also when going for a capital (if you don't also bring them when going after a border town). In other words bring overwhelming force. And did the game end when the Portuguese declared on you, or did you just give up, because you didn't believe you could win?

You could also put a granary in your capital, put out a settler, and then immediately (or after say a granary or a few warriors or something) use the Palace as a pre-build on the Great Library, and have a potentially larger empire that way.

Spoonwood - You really don't understand either my posts or my threads, I'm delighted you tried the map, I'm sorry you failed like I did, but, please, stop with the pointless posts, there's a good chap. If you don't want to play the map, kindly leave the thread

I did NOT fail on the map. I just stopped playing, in a position which I actually found good enough to win from. In other words, your claim of my play as a "failure" doesn't have a basis, when the opposite comes as at least plausible.

And my posts had the point of showing how to get to such a position. On top of that, the last post had the point of indicating that you hadn't provided enough detail when talking about your war troubles. This especially comes as vague

Buttercup said:

"My normal attack method quickly got me a lot of unhappy faces so for the next try I might have a go at the tedious method of building up a big and varied stack of everything available then just marching it to see how far it gets, new units running to join as they are produced and a token defence left at home."

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I have no idea what you mean by "normal attack mode", but you don't need to leave any real defense at home except in certain spot, and I've implied this elsewhere

Spoonwood said:

The save should also give you an idea of how to make effective use of your military. I don't have any units in Frankfurt, even though it borders Persia, because I have rails, and Persia can't reach Frankfurt in one turn. They might snatch the slave near there, so I've defended it. Nagsu also doesn't have any defense, and it doesn't need any. Gordium and Dariush Kabir on the other hand come as well defended, since they can get attacked on the inter-turn. New Berlin has some defense, since, unfortunately Persia has an RoP with Germany. I'd guess I moved at least one more rifle from the rifles between Dariush Kabir and Gordium to Dariush Kabir before the turn ended. Also, note that I put those two rifles there, so I could railroad to Dariush Kabir... that is to defend my workers, which now will move to another job, since they've finished railing.

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In truth, the saves I've provided even indicate this... as I only have units in 001 and 002 for military police purposes and NOT really for defense, with a varied army of horseman and catapults and spears.

If you seriously want help, please post relevant saves. I doubt anyone finds it credible at this point that you do want help especially in light of the fact that you claimed I had 4 towns, when I had 5, and 2 settlers freshly built in the ancient age (a very different position than having only 5 towns in the middle ages or 4 towns in the middle ages... in other words, it's NOT credible that you actually had something even close to the 1275 BC save I've provided you with from what you've told us, which makes it likely that you don't actually want help with this game... or that you simply can't tell the difference between such positions which seems very unlikely).

Anyway, I tried the Great Library again just now, this time with no intention of doing battle, but instead learn my way to Military Tradition and take things from there. All was going well, just chilling out building Aqueducts and replacing Spearmen with Crusaders maybe building the odd University and Cathedral to while my time away waiting to see what happens.

This time there are no wars between any of the civs. It's all bizarrely quiet. Then, low and behold, as if there's some kind of trigger in the game, I learn Military Tradition and 5 turns later the Ottomans invade. Not only that but Portugal also agree to a Trade Embargo against me. Game over. I did rush build two Cavalry from part-completed buildings, but they both died trying to shoot knights...

Surely someone knows how to take this one down!

Buttercup said:

Spoonwood said:

I did NOT fail on the map. I just stopped playing, in a position which I actually found good enough to win from.

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Ohhhhhh... <snip>.

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The statement as stated, stands correct. Again, you haven't provided enough detail. Did you build a granary in your capital? How many cities did you get out? What size did you put settlers out (note that after the first two cities, my capital could basically run near that of a 5-6, 9-10 turn settler-horse(sword)-horse(sword) combo factory with barracks).) Replacing spearmen??? Even if playing peacefully, you want many, many more offensive units than defensive units (do NOT try and play peacefully on a tiny pangea map on higher levels... even with least aggressiveness on, the AIs come as very likely to attack you), since the AI respects offensive units more than defensive units.

I still doubt that the game where you came close to taking out the Ottomans and got snuck attack by the Portuguese came as unwinnable. You'd need to post a save at that point to show anything. Did you have any catapults or trebuchets? How many knights did you have, and were they all veterans? Did you raise the luxury slider when you got war weariness? Did you mainly build offensive units, and push them to the front lines, instead of keeping military in your backside towns?

It looks like you're unable to understand the difference between losing a game where the AI defeats you, that is failing, and quitting a game, which just leaves a game incomplete. This doesn't bode well that you'll understand any advice we give you, and other advice that has gotten given to you doesn't seem to have gotten understood also, as I indicated above.

1225-Portugal lands a warrior near 004 which I take out with two horseman. Found 006-catapult.

1200-Found 007-worker.

1150-Defeat Ottoman sword and warrior near silk town.

1125-Defeat two Portuguese warriors near 007.

1100-Shaka demands Code of Laws, and I decline. Shaka declares on me. Defeat another Portguese warrior in a forest with a horseman, and then cover that horseman with a spear.

1025-Get an elite defeating Portuguese warrior in forest.

1000-Make peace with Portugal so they don't capture 003.

975-Found 008.

950-Change all citizens to tax collectors. Ring up Portugal and make the deal in the screenshot. Then tell his sword to leave or declare. And he declares. Destroy sword, and change all citizens back to tiles.