SGOTM 15 - Xteam

Makes sense to me...

zamint3 said:

One civ has 29 land tiles. This can't be from second border pop on T5, they must have had an extra settler!

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Damn, you're right i thought that this was because of the shrine but i completely forgot that it can't be right, except somebody is making +20culture per turn. Maybe everybody got a little culture gift? I think i know why neilmeister probably added two archers, he was to lazy to edit the settler out from the AI after he presettled everything

zamint3 said:

How can Toku have 20 culture in his capital and how can he have 10/4 espionage against us?

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I have no clue, hopefully we can get some new information next turn.

zamint3 said:

Would be nice to have 2nd city on the river for immediate trade routes and fast religion spread, but let's see if there's any seafood.

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I agree, i would probably settle it on the forest. It's a shame to loose that but we get the city online faster and make a commerce-site out of it. If we find seafood to the north we can try to incorporate more of the green hills around the area.

edit: Go ahead.

Played 2 more turns, moving Warrior SW and SE. There is a Banana to the SE of the Warrior and more land to the west, across the bay.


Demo Screens:




Save attached.

See no reason not to play on. Remind that should switch to deer once city expands to complete warrior quickly and start on worker, which will then complete same turn as Agri. The decision on whether AH vs BW after Agri can wait until then, when we will know more of the map and perhaps of our opponents.

Is there a stopping point we need for testing? Play through completion of Agriculture?

Warrior north, second warrior east, goal to recon and find Toku?

Do we need screenshots of Demo screens each turn?

After Agri and worker completion, we need to decide whether to build two workers before a settler, which will impact critically on what to research next.

Second worker before settler fits better with Masonry followed by BW, because chopping will get the late settler out 3 turns sooner but not before BW is researched and we thereby know where the copper, hopefully, is. Plus, we will have time (that is, worker turns) to improve both stone and marble before workers needed for second city.

Settler before second worker probably works better with AH before BW and possibly before Masonry, but haven't tested this.

Either way, the player needs to test himself, because there are many options regarding when to build warriors and grow, when to build the worker or settler, and how to deploy worker(s).

The basic question to ask is how many pop will there be in the capital when building the second worker and first new settler.
Next ask if any of the pop will have undevelop tiles to work.
Next I would check to see how much more science wouldbe gained by a new city working gems.

To me settler befor 2nd worker always sseem to work well since my second city is rather quick without chops. in regards to chops, do we need them for some thing else?


EDIT:
leif: check the top city scree (?) on next turn to see if the pop jumped to 2 for other cities as well as ours.

Also it require 100 hammer investment to OB with toku. When we learn writing, we should take a new settler/missionary ans settle a new city very close to him, typically in a crappy spot and gift it to him. OB is possible that way and infect him the same time.

Also, Toku love to tech alph and will trade at pleased. So converting him is important.

Have completed through Agriculture.

Met another AI, Hammeragawa. It is Toku as a Babylonian. I have a terrible feeling that all the AI will be Toku in different clothes.

edit - To answer Htadus' question, the sizes all grew to size 2 as ours did, I have a screenie coming soon, just need to prep them by cropping, etc.

Turn 8 – 3680 BC
Delhi grows to size 2.
MM citizen to work FP and Deer tiles.
Warrior heads north.
Toku’s Scout shows up down south again.



Turn 11 – 3560BC
Warrior completes, start a Worker.

Turn 12 – 3520 BC
Discover Polytheism, found Hinduism and change to Hinduism.
Begin researching Agriculture.

Turn 18 – 3200 BC
We meet Hammuragawa, Toku in Babylonia clothes.
I’ve got a bad feeling about this.
Check the mountains NE of the Deer tile, you can see the waves of a coastal set of tiles.

Turn 21 – 3160 BC
We discover Agriculture, start Bronze Working as a placeholder.
Fast Worker completes in Delhi, start a Fast Worker as a placeholder.
Move Fast Worker to Corn and begin farming. Leave all Warriors unmoved.
edit - note that many of the AI cities have reached size 3 as shown in the Top 5 Cities screen.
Stop, save and post.

Screen shots and save soon.

Let's see if I can get these Demo Screens in order. I think I missed one, 3280BC.

edit - Save uploaded at central for handover.

The rest of the screens:







Turn log from in game:

Roster:
Undecided - UP
Mad Professor - On Deck
The-Hawk
zamint3
Cactus Pete
Htadus
leif - just played

If we need to change, please post.
Put MP second as he said he would be away until after the 1st of February.

The score graphs at central., so far, all converge around turn 20.

leif erikson said:

Turn 18 – 3200 BC
We meet Hammuragawa, Toku in Babylonia clothes.
I’ve got a bad feeling about this.
Check the mountains NE of the Deer tile, you can see the waves of a coastal set of tiles.

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Where did you meet this Toku 2 guy?

I guess neil is having a good laugh these days...

I'm ready to take over whenever we're done with some testing.

I updated the test save. It should be pretty accurate except some different revealed tiles in the T20 version and you don't have the pleasure of meeting hammuragawa because he is disguised as Rooseman. If there is a possibility to change the leader in the save files i would do that. Because we're not sure yet if and how many leaders start with settlers/workers or other stuff i stayed away from any edits in that regard aswell.
Happy testing everybody!


@ Leif:

Could you catch a glimpse from which direction hammuragawa showed up?

It's also interesting to see that Babylon is in the mix. This leads me to believe that every civ might've got different boni at the beginning. If Babylon would've got two archers.. eh bowman, the powerrating would be much higher than the 24k we saw in the T0 screen.

Neilmeister really wants to hide something from us in the NE...

Here are the saves:

Undecided said:

@ Leif:

Could you catch a glimpse from which direction hammuragawa showed up?

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A couple of things you need to know.

I met Hammuragawa in the northwest very near the location of our Warrior up there.

The Warrior to the east, that is finishing healing in the forest, has seen a lion lurking about. The lion has popped onto the grass hill to the east a couple of times and I suspect the mountains may continue a bit that way so he has no other place to go. You may get attacked when you move, which is why I wanted him healed before moving out of the forest.

I was trying to find our opponents so we could decide where best to settle in case we needed to block them and claim gold city sites. It would be comforting to find some copper...

Thanks for making some test saves.

Undecided said:

I'm ready to take over whenever we're done with some testing.

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Been thinking a bit more and it would be good if we could focus a bit for our testing. I think we know we need Oracle and I assume we're heading for MC, even more so since we see Gems and Gold for . I think we need to strongly consider 'mids and, of course, AP.

Now we should try to come up with optimum builds and tech path to accomplish this, unless there is something else to consider that I missed?

Appreciate the test save, Undecided, but why did you put lions in the NW?

Will look at settler before second worker. Need to get the next 20 turns right.

@CP
Sry they just walked out of the fog and i thought it wasn't that important because we might have to retreat with the warrior in the real game too, if we'd come in a similar situation. I did not put them there on purpose. Should i edit them out in such situations?

We met Toku on Turn 5 iirc, so he must be pretty close to Gold/Sheep site. We might want to go for that site first, Pig/Gems and NW looks a bit safer to grab later.
On Emperor most Civs get the first city planted between T30-T40 in my experience so i don't think we can hold off that site for to long.

I also think that Gold-site makes AH more important than BW right now.

No problem . . . just making sure there wasn't something one of us was missing.

Tested the following:

Switched build to warrior for five turns, which gets warrior out same turn city grows to size three and one turn after corn farmed, then started settler. (Like this approach.)

Switched research to AH.This will complete research several turns before settler comes out.

Don't think we should play past AH, as the presence (or absence) and location of horses will determine what to research next and where to settle next city. With horses available, BW is not immediately needed. If Wheel is needed to hook horses, then Wheel, then Masonry probably the way to go. Without horses, then BW should probably be researched next and fog busting becomes a serious concern.

Looks like two workers (with Masonry and BW) is a bit safer, but if the horses show up making a good city around gold or gems, then that will be more powerful.

Undecided said:

@CP

We met Toku on Turn 5 iirc, so he must be pretty close to Gold/Sheep site. We might want to go for that site first, Pig/Gems and NW looks a bit safer to grab later.
On Emperor most Civs get the first city planted between T30-T40 in my experience so i don't think we can hold off that site for to long. I agree with this assesment

I also think that Gold-site makes AH more important than BW right now. It is going to be a give and take. AH is good for it allows locationg HA. Opps that was a slip . On the other hand copper is great to and chopping and whipping....for those who are in to that kind of geneside.

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We should do what ever we need to get that gold city founded. It will be a good Oracle city and is in the direction of AI.

Did leif state that Toku scout came from the east? I assumed it was from the NW where our warrior was exploring.