City Development

Thalassicus · Oct 27, 2011

Like the two of you I'm okay with the stable having a niche use. It's still a "build immediately" in games with a horse UU leader. If two or more livestock are nearby it's about as good as a Smithy... cheaper to build and similar production. The principle is for resource-improving buildings to have a second bonus of some sort. The stable meets this condition.

Txurce · Feb 16, 2012

V130's mutiple changes to GW's make a ton of sense and should make the game more enjoyable. The Colossus jumped out at me. I liked the nerf to the Pyramids. Probably least appealing is the Lighthouse, but some GW has to be in the bottom tier, and what it lacks in oomph 1) makes complete sense and 2) will be very useful in the right circumstances.

Thalassicus · Feb 16, 2012

Consider the total production value of bonuses on the Great Lighthouse:

90 :c5production:

= Lighthouse cost
90 :c5production:

= Barracks cost, gives +15 :c5war:

XP for ships
50 :c5production:

= Monument cost, gives 1 :c5culture:

1

00

= 1

and 1 sight for ships
----------------------------------------
230 :c5production:

total value
220 :c5production:

cost for Great Lighthouse

I now consider it an immediate priority for any empire with a coastal city. It's even better than the value of its individual parts, since all the effects are maintenance-free, and the barracks/monument effects stack with other such structures. The experience bonus is significant for ships since non-English have no way to start with free XP until Harbors two eras later.

Txurce · Feb 19, 2012

We recently discussed in another thread that human and AI now get the same happiness at the start of the game. On Emperor this is apparently +12. This strikes me as not just too high, but higher than before. What changed, and why? There's enough surplus happiness to seriously affect early expansion strategy.

kc_bandit · Feb 19, 2012

Thalassicus said:
Consider the total production value of bonuses on the Great Lighthouse:

90 = Lighthouse cost
90 = Barracks cost, gives +15 XP for ships
50 = Monument cost, gives 1 1
00 = 1 and 1 sight for ships
----------------------------------------
230 total value
220 cost for Great Lighthouse

I now consider it an immediate priority for any empire with a coastal city. It's even better than the value of its individual parts, since all the effects are maintenance-free, and the barracks/monument effects stack with other such structures. The experience bonus is significant for ships since non-English have no way to start with free XP until Harbors two eras later.

Bingo - it's the first GW I get, unless I pop a ruin and hit some tech that lets me build one sooner. Catherine beat me to the Colossus by one turn the other day though, so I DOW'd her for spite.

Jaybe · Feb 19, 2012

Txurce said:
We recently discussed in another thread that human and AI now get the same happiness at the start of the game. On Emperor this is apparently +12. This strikes me as not just too high, but higher than before. What changed, and why? There's enough surplus happiness to seriously affect early expansion strategy.

Is this from the XML, or from after you settle your initial city?
I just checked the v131 HandicapInfos.xml, and the happiness (12) is no different than it's historically been in VEM. After settling it should be 8 (or 7, I forget what the per-city unhappiness is at the moment).

Txurce · Feb 19, 2012

It may be the same as it's always been - I'm not sure, so was asking. It just seemed to me that I've recently had noticeably more happiness in the early part of the game - enough to make expanding easier. It seemed odd, just like it seems odd that the happiness level is higher on the more difficult levels.

wobuffet · Feb 20, 2012

Well, raising everybody's starting happiness probably benefits the AI more than it does us, because the AI is terrible at foreseeing/dealing with impending unhappiness problems.

Thalassicus · Feb 20, 2012

Human-player happiness has remained constant since at least October. The only change since then is the recent -4 starting :c5happy:

fix to AIs so they follow the same formula as humans, as was originally intended.

v117.1 Beta: October 18, 2011
Cities

City unhappiness:

3 + 1 * = Puppets (was 3 + 0.75 * pop).

4 + 1 * = Occupied (unchanged).

4 + 1 * = Normal (unchanged).

Early expansion is mostly identical between vanilla and vem. If we have 3 cities:

Vem
12 :c5happy:

and 3*4

per city = 0 :c5happy:

Vanilla
09 :c5happy:

and 3*3

per city = 0 :c5happy:

This means an undeveloped city in the midgame has +1 :c5angry:

more than vanilla. This is balanced by +1 :c5happy:

higher on vem colosseums. Developed happiness is about the same as vanilla.

The place where VEM differs most is policies. Most policy trees in vem have a powerful happiness booster, but most of those boosters are also high up in the tree. The exception is Piety, whose early polices are designed to be desirable for any strategy.

Txurce · Feb 20, 2012

Thanks for laying all this out. It really helps me to see it clearly.

mitsho · Apr 14, 2012

Is it intended that cities which I reconquered (so I founded them and then lost it to an AI before again conquering it back) need a courthouse? As a general feeling they shouldn't since you shouldn't be punished for getting back what is rightfully yours.

Seek · Apr 14, 2012

mitsho said:
Is it intended that cities which I reconquered (so I founded them and then lost it to an AI before again conquering it back) need a courthouse? As a general feeling they shouldn't since you shouldn't be punished for getting back what is rightfully yours.

Ouch. I haven't encountered this, but in a recent game I lost a self-founded city for a turn and when I recaptured it it went into resistance for a number of turns. AFAIK, neither this nor your issue is intended, and neither are they present in vanilla (as you probably know).

Thalassicus · Apr 14, 2012

Are you sure this doesn't happen in vanilla? Vem does change the resistance time and population lost, but I don't think I place cities into a specific status after capture... if that is the case it's a bug. :think:

Seek · Apr 14, 2012

I'm 90% sure, but it *has* been a while since I played a game in vanilla, much less lost a city to an AI! I'm not at home ATM so I can't test it.

mitsho · Apr 14, 2012

I really don't know what happens in Vanilla, and I'm not sure it's a bug. It's probably the first time this has happened to me... There's also the case that you conquer a city which belonged to you but you did not found it. In that case, it's just another occupation and you should need a courthouse I'd guess...

Really, it's complicated and I guess it's a very minor thing...

City Development

Thalassicus

Bytes and Nibblers

Txurce

Deity

Thalassicus

Bytes and Nibblers

Txurce

Deity

kc_bandit

Chieftain

Jaybe

civus fanaticus

Txurce

Deity

wobuffet

Barbarian

Thalassicus

Bytes and Nibblers

Txurce

Deity

mitsho

Deity

Seek

Deity

Thalassicus

Bytes and Nibblers

Seek

Deity

mitsho

Deity

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