Most Universal Policy Trees

mitsho · Feb 26, 2012

I do not want to push you to do extra work ;-)

As for the food bonus, yes I know. But how much does one food on farms really change? I don't have any numbers, but it doesn't seem like it'd change all that much.

As for Human Rights, it's just that there is so much more than agricultural workers that are affected...

Sneaks · Feb 26, 2012

Frankly I think we need a new mechanic in place for the later trees especially. I really detest adding more food into the game for tall empires or happiness for conquest ones. There is an abundance of both. It is one reason VEM has felt considerably easier every patch lately.

I would prefer adopting immigration/emigration to the mod. Autocracy could seriously halt international emigration, order could limit internal migration, and freedom could lessen desirability requirements of current citizens.

By creating a desirability yield we force a secondary reason to build high level happiness buildings in tall empires under the mechanic that tall well to do empires would require more to keep their citizens happy than a warmongering one. Uncontent citizens would simply up and leave for greener pastures elsewhere. It would also mean peaceful empires would need to cope with immigration issues. Lots of interesting concepts to play with

Zaldron · Feb 27, 2012

I'd have to see the +1 food in freedom to see how it plays out, as usually I only have 2-4 farms per city anyway. I might be convinced to build more once they would be +3 food each.

The finisher at 50% trade route gold seems significantly weaker than the old happy bonus would would equate to golden ages (money), happy science bonus in capital, culture with the piety policy, etc.

Thalassicus · Feb 27, 2012

I don't understand your last sentence; could you rephrase it?

EmperorFool · Feb 27, 2012

I think Zaldron means that a straight :c5gold:

bonus applied to trade routes is weaker than the old

bonus because

also gets you golden ages, a % :c5science:

bonus, and :c5culture:

if you have the correct Piety policy. You get

plus other stuff compared to just :c5gold:

. In short, the

stacks with other effects.

Zaldron · Feb 28, 2012

EmperorFool said:
I think Zaldron means that a straight bonus applied to trade routes is weaker than the old bonus because also gets you golden ages, a % bonus, and if you have the correct Piety policy. You get plus other stuff compared to just . In short, the stacks with other effects.

That's exactly what I was getting at. The gold for trade routes seems significantly weaker than the existing happy specialists bonus. If the intention is to nerf the freedom tree (I think it needs a buff if anything honestly) that's another story.

Thalassicus · Feb 28, 2012

What bonus would you suggest instead?

Zaldron · Feb 28, 2012

Thalassicus said:
What bonus would you suggest instead?

I haven't thought this through, but what about a bonus that improves national wonders? For example national college would get an extra 25% (or whatever number is balanced), heroic epic could get an extra 5-10% combat strength, etc. This seems like a possibility because national wonders are already aimed more at small and tall empires, and improving them will help a wide empire a lot less.

Thalassicus · Feb 28, 2012

I like that idea! It would use existing code and therefore take mere minutes to do. It's also very unique since nothing else boosts national wonders. Sadly, I couldn't change the heroic epic's promotion, but the heroic epic could get, say... an experience bonus instead.

Thalassicus · Feb 28, 2012

Here's the revised trees based on feedback. I buffed Freedom because several people in recent months have said they feel it's weak, but we can go for less of a buff if necessary.

Txurce · Feb 28, 2012

I thought the original set was a major improvement, and think these work very well, also.

Freedom is great, but feels too food-focused, if only because 3 policies address it. Why not combine +2 farms and 0.5 specialists into the right-hand policy, and make the middle one happiness-related (maybe in inverse proportion to city size)? Or come up with something altogether different, and as universal as what you have now?

Orders opener may be cherry-picked for GWs like the SoL, but Im not sure it should be dropped a tier as a result. I would personally use the finisher to speed the entire Apollo/SS process, and assume its also attractive for late warring.

I have nothing to critique regarding Autocracy. Id happily use it when warring.

Thalassicus · Feb 28, 2012

I focused the Freedom tree on food, and reduced its happiness, because people say tall empires have excess happiness in the mid to late game.

Txurce · Feb 28, 2012

Thalassicus said:
I focused the Freedom tree on food, and reduced its happiness, because people say tall empires have excess happiness in the mid to late game.

I have no problem with that. I was trying to come up with something to vary the food focus. It's no big deal. And if tall empires wind up with significantly lower happiness late game due to all the changes, we know where to go.

Seek · Feb 28, 2012

Thalassicus said:
I focused the Freedom tree on food, and reduced its happiness, because people say tall empires have excess happiness in the mid to late game.

Going from one of the best happiness policies in the game to no happiness policy at all is quite a leap however!

Txurce · Feb 28, 2012

Seek said:
Going from one of the best happiness policies in the game to no happiness policy at all is quite a leap however!

It is... and I did suggest bringing some back particularly for big cities... but in these situations I always think I have to play the game and see how all the many changes affect happiness, before singling out one adjustment. I haven't done it yet, though. Has happiness gone from excessive to problematic?

mitsho · Feb 29, 2012

I agree that there's too much food alone on there and the happiness alone might be a problem. Since you took away the gold focus from the finisher, why not add +X Gold to Luxuries for the Green Revolution (Cash Crops?). But I agree, I need to play the game first.

Similarly, the Order Tree seems awfully focused on Production. The Great Engineer is wonderful for the first in science (free wonder), but less useful for the second ones. I would shuffle around the village-production bonus of United Front (maybe add +1 production to communism) and give villages a second effect (culture maybe to counter the wide empire, few policies rule? wide empires will have more villages, right)

But again, need to play these changes first, are they not in 131.12, right?

Dunkah · Feb 29, 2012

Pardon my ignorance but what is the differnece between +1 happy and -1 Angry?

Txurce · Feb 29, 2012

Dunkah said:
Pardon my ignorance but what is the differnece between +1 happy and -1 Angry?

Nothing. Technically one term would be used on the positive end of the spectrum, and one on the other.

Thalassicus · Feb 29, 2012

@mitsho
These changes are not yet in the game. Moving policies between trees is an incredibly tedious process, so I wanted plenty of feedback first. I'll probably start today.

@Dunkah
It's for looks:

"Autocracy cracks down on dissent."
Sounds reasonable... :whipped:

"Autocracy makes people happy."
Sounds silly... :lol:

These are similar in Civ, but obviously different in the real world, so I chose a way that sounds most realistic. The difference in Civ is negligible enough that you can think of them as the same. They would be identical in Civ if modifiers multiplied instead of adding. Since modifiers add (which is bizzare), they are slightly different in certain circumstances, such as Gandhi's trait, or the Forbidden Palace. I think the only one effected is the -0.5 :c5angry:

per specialist policy. I don't know if that takes effect before or after pop-anger modifiers, but the difference is only a few decimal points, so it rarely has a noticeable impact.

Babri · Mar 11, 2012

Well I just had a crazy idea about autocracy. Why not change -0.5 unhappy per specialist to city revolt after capture reduced by 50% & less happiness penalty when in the revolt stage. This would allow rapid conquest without getting the nasty combat modifier from unhappiness & u could finally do Blitz like the Germans did.

And constitution for Freedom sounds a bit weak unless I am missing something, 33% would be more noticable or atleast change it to 25%. Also Order finisher might be changed to 30% as well since it comes so late in game & mostly impossible to get for wide empires.

Most Universal Policy Trees

Most universal trees:

Liberty

Tradition

Honor

Piety

Commerce

Patronage

Enlightenment

Freedom

Autocracy

Order

Deity

Brooklyn Bum

King

Bytes and Nibblers

Deity

King

Bytes and Nibblers

King

Bytes and Nibblers

Bytes and Nibblers

Deity

Bytes and Nibblers

Deity

Deity

Deity

Deity

Emperor

Deity

Bytes and Nibblers

Emperor

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