Armies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
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Gamewizard
Emperor
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I've actually been playing more vanilla again, just with different strategies...meaning I don't build the GL or PT, since that is where vanilla gets broken for me. The game I'm playing now I randomized leader and map and got Sulieman. His ability is near useless on the semi pangaea map I landed but his units are alot of fun.
The main reason I switched back is because of the AI's vanguard spam in VEM. The vanguard idea is great in theory but I get sick of seeing them misused.
Txurce
Deity
I haven't played vanilla in a while, so I'm curious as to what the AI built if it didn't have tons of resources?
Pikes and archers.
Txurce
Deity
That's what I remember. So there's no difference in the AI tendency, and the problem would seem to be in the effectiveness of vanguards vs pikes.
Gamewizard
Emperor
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True, they do spam whatever is the strongest resourceless unit available. In my current game, Elizabeth has Longbows in about every other tile and Napoleon loves his Musketeers and Cannons. He did end up sending a handful of Lancers at me, however.
In vanilla, however, the AI upgrades their units almost immediately upon availability. Those Musketeers turned into Riflemen about the same time my Jannissaries did the same. And all those extra strategic resources in vanilla do get used in my experiences, so its never a surprise to see an army of Samurai at your borders. I play Emperor level.
In vanilla, however, the AI upgrades their units almost immediately upon availability. Those Musketeers turned into Riflemen about the same time my Jannissaries did the same. And all those extra strategic resources in vanilla do get used in my experiences, so its never a surprise to see an army of Samurai at your borders. I play Emperor level.
Txurce
Deity
In VEM I frequently get a surprising number of targeted units, like lancers vs my siege, AT guns vs armor, etc., once I start making gains due to an imbalance.
Thal says that the AI in VEM build resource units when available, but that wouldn't normally be more than 2-4 samurai, for example.
AI units in VEM don't seem to upgrade very quickly, but I'd be surprised if something stops them (as opposed to vanilla).
Ahriman
Tyrant
I'm wondering if a few of the key strategic resource units like samurai are now too weak in VEM, given that you can't spam them anymore. Maybe samurai should be bumped up with +1 strength?
I don't have the Denmark DLC, but huscarls probably have the same problem, and maybe the swordsman UUs (legion, mohawk warrior). Perhaps the mohawk warrior should be ironless?
Txurce
Deity
I haven't played with any of those civs in a long time, oddly enough, so I don't have a current opinion.
wobuffet
Barbarian
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This is in response to post in the General Discussion thread:
movement points and take 5 damage when crossing the owner's cultural borders (whether coming in or going out)," but I assume that's infeasible with current modding tools.
Artillery is a whole 'nother issue: it's way too strong. Going from 2 to 3 range is such a huge advantage in gameplay that Artillery should really be barely stronger (in terms of ranged combat strength) than Cannons, if at all.
In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing a massive downscaling of all ranged combat strengths (including naval units, but not Cities' attacks) – maybe -20% for Crossbowmen all the way to -40% for Cannons/Artillery – given how poor the AI is at using and defending against ranged combat. As is, it's simply way too easy, as a human, to take over multiple Cities without losing a single unit once you get your hands on a couple Artillery (or even Crossbowmen with the +range promotion!).
Lastly, I think Cities should upgrade to a range of 3 at Chemistry or so (or alternatively, after building the Castle), to give them a chance against invading Artillery.
I agree that it's game-changing, but I actually think it's a nice mechanic. Thematically, I'd prefer something like "Enemy units expend all
movement points and take 5 damage when crossing the owner's cultural borders (whether coming in or going out)," but I assume that's infeasible with current modding tools.I don't see this as a problem with the Great Wall: if something makes the incompetent combat AI more capable against humans, that's a good thing. And if you took the time and hammers to build it yourself, you deserve some benefit. (By that point in the game, it's unlikely the AI was going to manage to capture any of your cities anyhow.) What I'd really like to see is this: the Great Wall expires earlier, but there are 1–3 other Great Wonders or a National Wonder giving similar effects at different points in the tech tree. VEM's forts are a great idea for helping the AI defend itself, but the AI doesn't build them.
Artillery is a whole 'nother issue: it's way too strong. Going from 2 to 3 range is such a huge advantage in gameplay that Artillery should really be barely stronger (in terms of ranged combat strength) than Cannons, if at all.
In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing a massive downscaling of all ranged combat strengths (including naval units, but not Cities' attacks) – maybe -20% for Crossbowmen all the way to -40% for Cannons/Artillery – given how poor the AI is at using and defending against ranged combat. As is, it's simply way too easy, as a human, to take over multiple Cities without losing a single unit once you get your hands on a couple Artillery (or even Crossbowmen with the +range promotion!).
Lastly, I think Cities should upgrade to a range of 3 at Chemistry or so (or alternatively, after building the Castle), to give them a chance against invading Artillery.
mitsho
Deity
What about making artillery a ressource-dependent unit thus limiting the number you can build?
I do like expanding the range of a city with the military base or a technology on the opposite side of the tech tree, maybe a bit later than when the artillery comes. But I doubt it's feasible at the moment...
As for the ranged units in general, I think we should wait and see how it is when the AI uses them more (if Thal can make them spend their money...) and when they do have a straight ranged upgrade path (in G&K).
I do like expanding the range of a city with the military base or a technology on the opposite side of the tech tree, maybe a bit later than when the artillery comes. But I doubt it's feasible at the moment...
As for the ranged units in general, I think we should wait and see how it is when the AI uses them more (if Thal can make them spend their money...) and when they do have a straight ranged upgrade path (in G&K).
Some suggestions about UUs :-
1) Minuteman is too powerful than its counterpart. It is about 15% cheaper, 33% stronger & have an extra promo. Change its
to 18 or 17 from 20.
2) Musketeer is UP. Compared to Tericos or Janissaries it is too weak. Increase its to 18, increase foreign land bonus to 25%.
BTW I think it would be better if u change them back to vanilla & Musketeer upgrade cost to Rifles would be lesser in that case, so there will still be incentive to build musketeers.
1) Minuteman is too powerful than its counterpart. It is about 15% cheaper, 33% stronger & have an extra promo. Change its
to 18 or 17 from 20.2) Musketeer is UP. Compared to Tericos or Janissaries it is too weak. Increase its
to 18, increase foreign land bonus to 25%. BTW I think it would be better if u change them back to vanilla & Musketeer upgrade cost to Rifles would be lesser in that case, so there will still be incentive to build musketeers.
Txurce
Deity
wobuffet's proposals for the GW are interesting, but I don't think they're possible.
I don't think Artillery is OP, but rather a key element of the offense-oriented modern era (as is air power). Reducing their range to 2 would hurt the AI more than the human, because the AI builds them in large numbers and does take advantage of the extra range.
Reducing the firepower of artillery and all ranged units would make the game more one-dimensional for me. I'd consider playing without ranged units at all in that case.
UU strengths can't be compared out of context. Each of these is part of the unique mix of each civ. I would need to feel that a civ is clearly UP before considering solving that problem with a UU buff. (If I were going to buff UU's out of context, I'd start with the Slinger and Maori Warrior before considering the musket units.)
I don't think Artillery is OP, but rather a key element of the offense-oriented modern era (as is air power). Reducing their range to 2 would hurt the AI more than the human, because the AI builds them in large numbers and does take advantage of the extra range.
Reducing the firepower of artillery and all ranged units would make the game more one-dimensional for me. I'd consider playing without ranged units at all in that case.
Some suggestions about UUs :-
1) Minuteman is too powerful than its counterpart. It is about 15% cheaper, 33% stronger & have an extra promo. Change its
2) Musketeer is UP. Compared to Tericos or Janissaries it is too weak. Increase its
BTW I think it would be better if u change them back to vanilla & Musketeer upgrade cost to Rifles would be lesser in that case, so there will still be incentive to build musketeers.
UU strengths can't be compared out of context. Each of these is part of the unique mix of each civ. I would need to feel that a civ is clearly UP before considering solving that problem with a UU buff. (If I were going to buff UU's out of context, I'd start with the Slinger and Maori Warrior before considering the musket units.)
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Minutemen are a Vanguard unit and therefore weak on the attack. None of their promotions improve attack strength, and they can't get the Siege promotion. This means they are weaker in combat than a Rifleman, but have superior movement and sight capabilities. The lower up-front cost of Minutemen cancels out with the much higher cost to upgrade to Light Infantry. I do not feel they are overpowered compared to other armies of their time.
I do not feel France is underpowered. France has one of the most powerful traits in the game. The foreign lands bonus upgrades from musketeers to riflemen, foreign legion, and mech infantry. It is therefore more powerful than the vanilla version, which was on just 2 of those 4 units.
I do not feel France is underpowered. France has one of the most powerful traits in the game. The foreign lands bonus upgrades from musketeers to riflemen, foreign legion, and mech infantry. It is therefore more powerful than the vanilla version, which was on just 2 of those 4 units.
wobuffet
Barbarian
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Well, sure, the AI builds a ton, but can it use them at all effectively?
I never advocated reducing the range to 2! I just think that that having that larger range is such a huge advantage that, even if the Artillery's ranged combat strength were the same as the Cannon's, it'd still be incredibly useful, and when playing militarily, I'd still rush to get it.
Well, what I have in mind is something like this: in one attack, equal-strength melee units should deal and take roughly 10 damage each. Equal-strength/same-era ranged units should deal about 6 or 7 damage to an enemy melee unit, since it takes no damage at all when attacking.
Speaking from a strictly gameplay perspective, I think this would make the game more challenging and fun: each ranged unit would have to be escorted by several melee units (say, a 4:1 ratio or so). Currently, especially with Artillery, it's trivial to bash one's way through cities with hardly any melee units (much closer to a 1:1 ratio).
(On a similar note, I've found conquering coastal cities far too easy with a decently sized naval fleet because of the nature of naval units' ranged combat. Improving Cities' strength and/or range would mitigate this, I think.)
I see that CITY_ATTACK_RANGE is in GlobalDefines, but presumably impossible to change with a tech or building at present. Shucks.
Thal, any thoughts on ranged units/Artillery?
Txurce
Deity
More effectively than they do anything else, which is my biggest reason for not wanting to change it. They sometimes catch me off-guard, and redline my city before I can react in time.
My mistake.
I think modern war does operate like this (blitzkrieg and the air-power version of it, not to mention nukes). I have little doubt that this would slow the late war game down (for better or worse) and make warmongering even harder for the AI.
Given that the AI basically doesn't use navies, the obvious solution here is to eliminate the long-range promotion and nerf ships' effects in cities. The reason part of the VEM community pushed Thal in the opposite direction is that it's more "fun" to play with ships (even if you're effectively playing against no one). This is worth keeping in mind with regard to nerfing all ranged units.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I'd prefer to just change specific ranged units we feel are an issue. I feel Archers are okay, and Rocket Artillery too - aircraft are common by that point. Catapults seem alright. I recently nerfed crossbows. This narrows it down to cannon and artillery. I'd be okay with making artillery the same ranged strength as cannon, since they get the extra range and Indirect Fire. I don't have a strong feeling about it either way.
Txurce
Deity
Consider me one vote against. Making it the same strength as a cannon while melee units are significantly stronger makes no common sense: artillery is much more than a long-range cannon, and players often have promoted long-range cannon by then, anyway. More importantly, it undercuts the AI's prime weapon in the modern era. Keep in mind the huge advantage we've already given humans with bombers and naval city shelling.
Dunkah
Emperor
The great wall was a tool that the they used to keep enemy out. It doesn't make much sense to have it hinder movement throughout the lands.
Perhaps changing it so that it gives a fortification bonus within cultural territory or along the border itself. This way you can station troops along the borders and make it more difficult to get into the lands in the first place. Like it was meant to do.
Perhaps changing it so that it gives a fortification bonus within cultural territory or along the border itself. This way you can station troops along the borders and make it more difficult to get into the lands in the first place. Like it was meant to do.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Most things which control combat or movement (like the Great Wall effect) are in the game core only Firaxis has access to. We can toggle that effect on/off... or use other effects provided by promotions. For example, the Himeji Castle accomplishes its effect through a promotion. I can copy any promotion in the game to use for the Great Wall. Perhaps our units heal faster in friendly territory?
