Like I said, I have noticed that some players feel navies are not important part of the game. I like to build a strong navy in most games that I play, so IMO there is at least a gap between Trireme and Caravel. Maybe at least look at adding a navel unit at Optics. Plus I'm glad that you would consider to bring the Privateer back to game, that is a fun unit to harass the AI or even CS with.
Navies
- Thread starter Thalassicus
- Start date
Ahriman
Tyrant
If you're looking for more warships, then I would argue for a wargalley or galleass or similar. Think about the huge naval battles for control of the Mediterannean, Ottomans, Venetians, Holy League, etc.
I think it is very unfortunate that there is no medieval era naval unit. Triremes are not worth building because they are rapidly outclassed and have nothing to upgrade to.
I think it is very unfortunate that there is no medieval era naval unit. Triremes are not worth building because they are rapidly outclassed and have nothing to upgrade to.
Txurce
Deity
More units are always fun. But triremes are galleys, and galleys of one form or another fought each other at close range until the Age of Sail. None of these galleys had a meaningful role against land units, so I'm not sure why there would be a need to build a different version of the same thing, to only fight the same thing, in the space between trireme and caravel.
Thal is making caravels available with Compass - with deep-water entry coming with Astr so that there will be both a Medieval naval unit, and some gap before it and the Navigation units. At that point, I think triremes upgrade to caravels in VEM, and frigates in vanilla.
Ahriman
Tyrant
There is a huge difference between a Roman or greek trireme and a 15th century galleass.
To say otherwise is like to say there is no difference between the Monitor and a modern missile cruiser. They're both metal warships. Or that there is no need for a pikemen unit, because ancient era spearmen are the same as pikes. Or tanks and modern armor. etc
In most previous civs, naval units were weak, because they had no real role except for fighting other naval units. In Civ5 they deliberately gave naval units a role by making them able to interact with land units. This was a fantastic design decision, it was really good for gameplay.
So, currently triremes do well in an age of archers and spearmen and need to be careful once catapults show up, but they are massively outclassed when crossbows and trebuchets come around. Getting one-shotted is not fun.
This is why there is a gameplay and realism case for an intermediate vessel, so that investing in triremes is not a total waste of hammers.
Txurce
Deity
Comparative hyperbole aside, you make a valid point about crossbows and trebuchets one-shotting triremes. Hence the upgrade to Caravels at Compass - precisely on the same tier as Machinery and Physics.
This is a great compromise IMO. Just to where I understand this: Caravel available at Compass, but can not enter ocean hex until Astr, right? That gives a gap between them and being able to build or upgrade to Frigates. Thanks!!
Txurce
Deity
You understand correctly. I thought it was an inspired shift, too.
Ahriman
Tyrant
Certainly the caravel shift will make a big difference. It might be enough. We'll see.
RE: Caravels available at compass:
This is one of those simply yet totally inspired ideas that make such perfect sense once you think of it that you wonder why nobody thought about it before. Top marks Thal! I love my navies so I'll give this a go and report back. Can't see it being anything other than brilliant though.
This is one of those simply yet totally inspired ideas that make such perfect sense once you think of it that you wonder why nobody thought about it before. Top marks Thal! I love my navies so I'll give this a go and report back. Can't see it being anything other than brilliant though.
Hey, sorry for the bump but I looked around for some answers and couldn't find any and thought I'd use this thread.
I wanted to know if it is 'normal' when upgrading ships to lose promotions? Even the gold ones. I've lost promotions like land attack (x3) and ship attack (x3) and had an upgraded ship, e.g. trireme > caravel or caravel > frigate, go back to no promotions (it would keep, say, Zeus' statue promotion, but lose everything else).
Also, I recently loaded (via autosave) a game where my exploring caravel was now stuck in the middle of the ocean and had to be disbanded.
I wanted to know if it is 'normal' when upgrading ships to lose promotions? Even the gold ones. I've lost promotions like land attack (x3) and ship attack (x3) and had an upgraded ship, e.g. trireme > caravel or caravel > frigate, go back to no promotions (it would keep, say, Zeus' statue promotion, but lose everything else).
Also, I recently loaded (via autosave) a game where my exploring caravel was now stuck in the middle of the ocean and had to be disbanded.
wobuffet
Barbarian
- Joined
- Jun 27, 2011
- Messages
- 1,248
No, the gold ones should stay through upgrades.
Try the common checklist at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10901714#post10901714
and/or Thal's note using on installing the recent betas
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11295924#post11295924
Try the common checklist at http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=10901714#post10901714
and/or Thal's note using on installing the recent betas
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=11295924#post11295924
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Compare the three future categories of ships:
I'm thinking about something like below (not final). These are my own plans - not necessarily any names, techs, or stats of vanilla-G&K. I will adapt this to fit whatever Firaxis does for G&K.
- Light: Fast ranged ships for scouting or light bombardment.
- Melee: Anti-ship boarding parties, and sometimes amphibious assaults on cities.
- Capital: More powerful and slow ranged ships for heavy bombardment.
- 1 light ship for spotting.
- 2 melee ships for boarding/landing.
- 5 capital ships for heavy duty work.
I'm thinking about something like below (not final). These are my own plans - not necessarily any names, techs, or stats of vanilla-G&K. I will adapt this to fit whatever Firaxis does for G&K.
Attachments
albie_123
Modding In Secret
First off, don't forget Submarines in the mix! They are very important in the modern era.
Secondly, small thing, but the naming of the melee units is a little odd. Marines and SEAL Teams don't strike me as the kind of troops who take cities, nor that crush other ships toe-to-toe.
Fire Ships seem to me as a better example of that, however, that was a Classical / Medieval vessel.
Secondly, small thing, but the naming of the melee units is a little odd. Marines and SEAL Teams don't strike me as the kind of troops who take cities, nor that crush other ships toe-to-toe.
Fire Ships seem to me as a better example of that, however, that was a Classical / Medieval vessel.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Good point about submarines. Do you have ideas for names of later melee ships? 
albie_123
Modding In Secret
Galleons were also almost entirely used within the Renaissance, and were renowned for their large cannons used to soften cities and bring down larger ships from close range, and so I feel they are much more suited to represent the Renaissance melee unit.
Fire Ships are more suited to represent the Medieval melee ship. They were used against wooden ships and wooden docks alike.
As far as the Industrial / Modern melee ship, there really isn't an equivalent in reality. Amphibious Assault Ship? I just dislike the use of using a land-based name for a naval-based unit. In game, I find that Carriers and Subs together serve the purpose of a melee naval unit. I use subs to bring down ships, and carriers to soften cities. (Although I now restrain from using carriers with the knowledge that the AI simply doesn't understand them.)
Fire Ships are more suited to represent the Medieval melee ship. They were used against wooden ships and wooden docks alike.
As far as the Industrial / Modern melee ship, there really isn't an equivalent in reality. Amphibious Assault Ship? I just dislike the use of using a land-based name for a naval-based unit. In game, I find that Carriers and Subs together serve the purpose of a melee naval unit. I use subs to bring down ships, and carriers to soften cities. (Although I now restrain from using carriers with the knowledge that the AI simply doesn't understand them.)
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
Marines are a naval-based unit. They're certainly not members of the Army, that's for sure!
The historical roles for marines are boarding enemy ships and performing amphibious assaults. Those are the same two roles as melee naval combat. Boarding actions mostly disappeared with the advent of battleships, so a "Marine" unit introduced as part of industrial era navies could probably last until the modern age. After all, any unit can effectively take a city bombarded to 1 hp.
albie_123
Modding In Secret
I was referring to the SEAL unit, namely because as an elite unit I simply cannot see a SEAL team invading and occupying an entire city. Marines are fine.
The Galleon / Fire Ship names though make more sense than having Galleon in the wrong era. Marines can be the modern unit.
The Galleon / Fire Ship names though make more sense than having Galleon in the wrong era. Marines can be the modern unit.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I agree about SEALS and will remove them from the list. You're right that I have the Galleon and Marine in the wrong eras. Give me a few minutes to revise the list. 
albie_123
Modding In Secret
I'm still sort of confused about the role of melee ships, apart from the very specific purpose of coming in last to annex the city. It seems to me that using a Melee ship that will eventually die up against a city does not stack up to using a Capital ship to bombard the hell out of it from a distance.
Thalassicus
Bytes and Nibblers
I see melee ships as basically a visible submarine. Subs are essentially visible anyway since they're spotted by destroyers at a long range. Melee ships extend the sub concept to earlier eras. The ability to capture cities is just extra flavor, because we can already do that with embarked units. (Subs will obviously not be capable of capturing cities.)
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