Why isn't the Seven Years' War called WWI?

World War II, however, was the only war where there were several important theatres. von Lettow-Vorbeck's actions were mostly irrelevant. Germany didn't give much of a damn about Tsingtao, which was really the only thing of any significance done by Japan in the war.

The number of theaters (and really, there were only two (two and a half) theaters that mattered in WW II - Pacific and Europe (the half is the eastern front, depending if you consider it a separate theater or a different front of the European theater). North Africa was really only an extension of the European theater.

What's more important than the number of important theaters is, as I've said, the number of troops from all over the world contributing in the central theater. In that case, World War II had units from all over the world fighting on the European front.
 
What's more important than the number of important theaters is, as I've said, the number of troops from all over the world contributing in the central theater. In that case, World War II had units from all over the world fighting on the European front.
That's an almost painfully meaningless arbitrary metric.

NK had it right: we call these wars by these names because it's collective insanity, the agreed-upon convention, not because of any meaningful, concrete reasons.
 
France and Russia were in effectively equivalent military situations in early 1917. If it had been France that had suffered from revolutionary circumstances leading to a German military victory - either precipitated by the incipient collapse in the Anglo-French financial sector (only prevented by America's entry into the war) or by having the post-Nivelle mutiny lead to a German offensive and breakthrough, and if Russia had simply crushed the Petersburg uprisings in February/March (two things that almost happened, and only did not happen because of contingent events, not some overwhelming French institutional superiority or some similar garbage), the Russians and French would have been in precisely opposing circumstances.

Russia's military in the First World War was not the class of the world, but it was loosely comparable with the militaries of the other Great Powers that fought in it.
 
The Seven Years War was fundamentally a war of Europeans. The involvement of the colonies and native/Indian allies was limited only to local theaters , while the main theater of the war - Europe - was disputed by Europeans.

So WW1 wasn't a war of Europeans? ;)
 
France and Russia were in effectively equivalent military situations in early 1917. If it had been France that had suffered from revolutionary circumstances leading to a German military victory - either precipitated by the incipient collapse in the Anglo-French financial sector (only prevented by America's entry into the war) or by having the post-Nivelle mutiny lead to a German offensive and breakthrough, and if Russia had simply crushed the Petersburg uprisings in February/March (two things that almost happened, and only did not happen because of contingent events, not some overwhelming French institutional superiority or some similar garbage), the Russians and French would have been in precisely opposing circumstances.

Russia's military in the First World War was not the class of the world, but it was loosely comparable with the militaries of the other Great Powers that fought in it.

Still, the French government was fairly popular, and mostly democratic. The Petersburg uprisings only succeeded because the soldiers ordered to crush it joined it - with predictable results. If Germany had have launched a major offensive at the time of the Nivelle mutiny, it would likely not have been a killer blow to France. The offensive likely would have pushed the front past Paris to the Loire and Burgundy regions, but the French government would likely not have collapsed.

The financial collapse not significant to the war. Sure, it ruined some rentiers, but it did not affect industry or public opinion. Lucrative military contracts filled the gap left by banks and other privatized financial systems. Also note that the main financial collapse occurred in June/July 1914, over fear of a European war.
 
Still, the French government was fairly popular,

pshwhat

If you want to get overwhelmed by political nihilism, just briefly survey French public discourse in 1917.
 
The financial collapse not significant to the war. Sure, it ruined some rentiers, but it did not affect industry or public opinion. Lucrative military contracts filled the gap left by banks and other privatized financial systems. Also note that the main financial collapse occurred in June/July 1914, over fear of a European war.
You're completely unaware of the incipient destruction of the Western Allies' ability to buy anything from the United States in the winter of 1916-17, aren't you? That's okay, most people are.

If Germany hadn't launched unrestricted submarine warfare, the British and French wouldn't have had enough capital in the United States to continue purchasing war matériel and raw materials. They also wouldn't have had anywhere near the capacity to make up the deficit by acquiring goods from their empires or from other powers like Argentina, as demonstrated by the period between the initial Federal Reserve threat in late 1916 and March 1917, when they desperately tried to figure out other places to buy stuff from and failed so badly that the situation for their finances got worse in America, not better.

Effectively, unrestricted submarine warfare was supposed to accomplish a cessation of shipments of raw materials and war matériel to Britain, but this would have happened anyway due to the parlous financial situation of the British Treasury. And since the French economy at this point was more or less backstopped by British war orders, and the Paris bourse had serious fluctuations (just like the City did) on the initial announcement-and-retraction of the Federal Reserve's notice in 1916 (let alone the issuance of an actual note and an actual massive decrease in war spending), we're looking at a real financial crisis here, dude. And, you know, the troops on the front lines are going to be getting Ottoman levels of equipment. And they're going to be pissed off. I don't know, but I don't think we're going to be seeing the historical 1917 offensives any time soon. Or the historical resistance to the German 1918 offensives.
 
You're completely unaware of the incipient destruction of the Western Allies' ability to buy anything from the United States in the winter of 1916-17, aren't you? That's okay, most people are.

If Germany hadn't launched unrestricted submarine warfare, the British and French wouldn't have had enough capital in the United States to continue purchasing war matériel and raw materials. They also wouldn't have had anywhere near the capacity to make up the deficit by acquiring goods from their empires or from other powers like Argentina, as demonstrated by the period between the initial Federal Reserve threat in late 1916 and March 1917, when they desperately tried to figure out other places to buy stuff from and failed so badly that the situation for their finances got worse in America, not better.

Effectively, unrestricted submarine warfare was supposed to accomplish a cessation of shipments of raw materials and war matériel to Britain, but this would have happened anyway due to the parlous financial situation of the British Treasury. And since the French economy at this point was more or less backstopped by British war orders, and the Paris bourse had serious fluctuations (just like the City did) on the initial announcement-and-retraction of the Federal Reserve's notice in 1916 (let alone the issuance of an actual note and an actual massive decrease in war spending), we're looking at a real financial crisis here, dude. And, you know, the troops on the front lines are going to be getting Ottoman levels of equipment. And they're going to be pissed off. I don't know, but I don't think we're going to be seeing the historical 1917 offensives any time soon. Or the historical resistance to the German 1918 offensives.

:hatsoff:
 
Does that imply that by launching unrestricted submarine warfare, Germany cost herself the war? Or is that too over-simplistic (as these things almost invariably are)?
 
So WW1 wasn't a war of Europeans? ;)

To a much lesser degree than the Napoleonic and Seven Years War(s), because the degree of non-European involvement in WW I is much higher. Of course, it still started in Europe and was entirely and utterly the fault of the Europeans.

The way I see it, a true world war means global involvement in global fighting.

Global fighting means the fighting must happen all over the world. If it's a localized conflict, then it doesn't matter how many countries are involved, it's not a world war (See: any international military intervention in the past sixty years).

Global involvement means that the global fighting must involve countries and/or people from all over the world. If the global fighting is just round 78432 through 78440 of the endless Anglo-French war, while the involvement of everyone else is limited to their own local theater, then you don't have global involvement.

In that light, 7YW and Napoleonic didn't really see global involvement in the global fighting - the only people for whom the war involved any sort of global fighting being the English, French and maybe the Dutch in the Napoleonic War. For everyone else, it was a local war.

Now, it's certainly a retro-definition, to explain a pre-existing convention, but I think it works better than trying to overthrow the convention (by adding more "world wars"), if we're actually looking for a way to distinguish world wars from one another.

Of course "It's just a convention" works too, and is true.
 
Does that imply that by launching unrestricted submarine warfare, Germany cost herself the war? Or is that too over-simplistic (as these things almost invariably are)?
It is somewhat simplistic. The best way to put it is thus: not initiating unrestricted submarine warfare would have accomplished the same result as the best possible outcome of an unrestricted U-boat campaign against seaborne commerce to and from Britain - but without the horrific damage to Germany's international position, and without the almost-certain risk of war with the United States. Without unrestricted submarine warfare, Germany had a very good chance to win the war, provided she could take advantage of the near-certain collapse in the Western Allies' ability to fight on the Western Front; it was certainly a better chance to win the war than the Allies would have had after such a financial and industrial meltdown. With unrestricted submarine warfare, Germany still had a chance to win the war, but many different things had to go completely right, and some of them went wrong almost instantly. And more importantly, the U-boat campaign did not improve Germany's chances at all; it simply transferred the responsibility for the killing blow from the inexorable arithmetic of the finances of the British government to the much more mercurial and friction-prone U-boat arm of the German Imperial Navy.
 
Without unrestricted submarine warfare, Germany had a very good chance to win the war, provided she could take advantage of the near-certain collapse in the Western Allies' ability to fight on the Western Front; it was certainly a better chance to win the war than the Allies would have had after such a financial and industrial meltdown.

You obviously read far more about the subject than me. But just from some statistics about foreign trade I've seen I get the idea that the BE (edit: actually, Great Britain) and France produced the vast majority of their raw materials right at home at the time. This was still the Coal and Steel era. Of which Great Britain was an exporter. Still the world's leading exporter, I believe. They also had lots of other minerals. Some metals came from South America, some from the US, very little from Canada or the european colonies in Africa and Asia. But the dependance from the US was partly one of industrial products (I don't think that would be decisive) and partly one of grain. It'd be very though to get grain elsewhere, as the other traditional big exporters were in Russia and Eastern Europe. But it they really needed it they had empires and plenty of land. If Germany and AH made it through, France and the UK should be able to also.

Ultimately if they really had to sell stuff they had empires to negotiate, and the US was in land-grabbing mode also. Plus the british could negotiate with their (rather stupid since the beginning of the century) free trade policy. Would the US exporters really want to lose access to european markets? Dependance in these things ends up being two-ways...
 
Umm... A single Hamilton factory produced 1 million shells in October 1917, which is I believe the wartime record for shell production in a month by a single factory. And there were hundreds like it in Canada.

Really? I guess that shouldn't be surprising, given the resources and level of development of Canada at the time. Do you happen to know where to find statistics for production and trade in industrial products, and especially war supplies, during WW1? Unfortunately the UN only seems to make some data available since the 1960s, before that there were the SDN series, but I can't find them online.

The only ones I have on hand (sourced from SDN data) are for raw materials, and it is those that make me doubt the imminent collapse of France and the UK for starvation of its industries. Western Europe was a net exporter of coal in 1913, with the UK being the major exporter (78 million tonnes, 27% of the UK's production, 6% of world production) and France a minor importer. Of course, France lost its main sources of coal early on in the war as it came mostly from northern France and Belgium, so they must have depended on the UK.

The US and to a minor extent Russia were big oil exporters, which the UK and France had to import, but oil consumption in Europe didn't even reach 1% (energy equivalent) of that of coal.

As for iron ore, Germany apparently imported some from Sweden (as it did again during WW2), the UK from Spain and France. Those three countries were the world's major exporters, so the entente had its supplies guaranteed. France additionally had mines in Algeria and Tunisia. That international trade was itself small (28 million tones of iron ore) compared to internal production in the UK and France. Zinc was also obtained from Europe itself.

Latin America already exported copper, but Spain was a major exporter and supplier for the UK (Rio Tinto). For zinc as well. Tin had to be imported and it was apparently the single most costly mineral import into western Europe due to its high price, and also the one where exterior dependency was very high (over 80% was imported, but that number is for all "developed countries" at the time - Western Europe and the US).

Among other raw materials, and here I also only have aggregated numbers for US and western Europe, there was rubber (all of it, ~100000 tons, imported from South America and colonies); cotton (all imported by Europe, certainly much from the US, but also from colonies), wool (Australia/New Zealand/Argentina? - under the British Empire's control), Jute (all of it, from India), fertilizers (some 3 million tons of phosphates, don't know where from), nickel and asbestos from Canada (don't know how important those were). Probably most imported high-cost metals were coming from the US, Canada, or south america, but infrastructure to access mines in Africa was already in place by 1905: the Beira railway, for example, would allow economical exports of metals from Rhodesia (chrome, copper zinc, etc), but I don't think those were already being mined by 1914.
 
You obviously read far more about the subject than me. But just from some statistics about foreign trade I've seen I get the idea that the BE (edit: actually, Great Britain) and France produced the vast majority of their raw materials right at home at the time. This was still the Coal and Steel era. Of which Great Britain was an exporter. Still the world's leading exporter, I believe. They also had lots of other minerals. Some metals came from South America, some from the US, very little from Canada or the european colonies in Africa and Asia. But the dependance from the US was partly one of industrial products (I don't think that would be decisive) and partly one of grain. It'd be very though to get grain elsewhere, as the other traditional big exporters were in Russia and Eastern Europe. But it they really needed it they had empires and plenty of land. If Germany and AH made it through, France and the UK should be able to also.
"At the time" is misleading. In terms of normal, non-war production, the British did manage to cover their industry with home sources of most raw materials. At the height of the war economy in 1916-8, however, this was completely untrue. Not only was production in the British Isles insufficient to cover anything more than the barest majority of needs (with Canada and the United States making up a very large proportion of the rest), as you noted, Britain was very badly short of food (I, perhaps inaccurately, usually class this under 'raw materials' whenever I talk about this on forums). Indeed, the German naval staff, in planning the U-boat campaign, fixated on the food crisis as the key issue, not the collapse of the British financial sector and the hamstringing of her industry, mostly because the Germans were incapable of integrating economic and industrial concerns into war planning due to their utterly awful military hierarchy. (Individual Germans, such as Max Warburg, fixated on the Entente's financial woes in 1916, but they were largely ignored. Warburg was unpopular with the Third OHL, partly because the few non-military types Ludendorff liked to listen to were industrialists, as financiers were seen as largely irrelevant with their pre-1914 warnings having proven inaccurate, and partly because the Entente's financial situation led him to oppose the U-boat campaign.) At any rate, the dependence of the Western Allies on the US was such that, by the summer of 1916 as American factories began to properly gear up for the production of Entente war matériel, over two-fifths of all Entente daily spending on the war was in the United States.

And I don't think that the British and French would have to completely halt industrial production by any stretch when the hammer came down in April or May 1917; that'd be foolish, considering the scrimping other countries had to do at the same time. The BEF would not simply evaporate. But the problems faced by the UK at such a time would be rather unlike anything any other country had to deal with at the time. Germany and Austria-Hungary, even the Ottomans and Russia, did not face financial apocalypse on the order of what loomed in the spring of 1917 until they had effectively already lost the war, Russia in summer-fall 1917 and the Central Powers at various points a year later. A large part of the reason they were able to maintain their industrial production in such relative order, despite some intermittency in the physical amount of matériel produced, was because their financial systems, also never tranquil, never faced real discontinuities.

What the financial apocalypse of 1917 would do to the Western Allies is manifold. First, the effect would be, while not a series of falling dominoes, very quickly propagated to the rest of the alliance. All belligerent states, from Italy to Russia, were heavily implicated in borrowing in London, and British defaults on their American loans would cause financial crises in other states, too. Even France had been forced to effectively tie their fiscal policy to Britain's in the summer of 1916 after the (mostly failed) McKenna-Ribot negotiations. If anything, this might precipitate the Provisional Government to collapse faster; it would certainly not help matters, and it's nearly certain that the Russians would be forced to bow out of the war sometime before the 1918 campaigning season just as happened historically. Italy could also see its historical 1917 collapse turn from a mere disaster into a failure cascade; before Armando Diaz "pulled a Joffre" with the aid of British and French forces in OTL, Italy was in serious danger of falling into revolution in the north.

Secondly, while industrial production in these states would not totally stop, for obvious reasons, it would be drastically curtailed. This would have a direct battlefield effect. Remember, after the post-Nivelle mutiny, the BEF took up the reins with a series of massive offensives in Flanders to take pressure off the French, relying largely on their superiority in matériel and manpower. (Commonwealth tactical doctrine would eventually improve in the 1918 counteroffensives - possibly the one thing Haig did right the whole war - and finally give the British a fighting chance without expending disgustingly large amounts of troops and shells, but in 1917 those improvements were a long way off, and the officers to make them weren't present anyway.) One of those things would cease to be an advantage under these circumstances. Looking ahead to 1918, the BEF's positions in Flanders would be much worse than they were historically, probably permitting the Germans to successfully launch a variant of their KLEIN-GEORG or HAGEN offensives instead of the half-success it was in OTL; there would be, for instance, no Passchendaele or Mount Kemmel positions to slow the Germans down. If the BEF on the Continent goes down, combined with severe financial pressure, would the British really be able to politically sustain the war?

That brings us to the third point, the political effects of such a financial crisis and the potential political effects of subsequent battlefield successes. In the OTL 1918 offensives, Germany is usually agreed to have had a slim chance at effectively destroying the BEF or at the very least forcing it off the Continent; even with Americans arriving in large numbers and American financial and industrial support buttressing Entente strength, Lloyd George, Robertson, and Foch all agreed that had Amiens fallen - not even the total destruction of the BEF, but the fall of Amiens! - the Entente powers would have been forced to seriously negotiate with Germany. Now add some more battlefield success for Germany, a food crisis in Britain itself, and a massive shortfall in the City markets, and delete the Americans from the manpower equation and from the financial equation. Would Lloyd George's government be able to survive if it didn't seek peace under those circumstances? I seriously doubt it.
innonimatu said:
Ultimately if they really had to sell stuff they had empires to negotiate, and the US was in land-grabbing mode also. Plus the british could negotiate with their (rather stupid since the beginning of the century) free trade policy. Would the US exporters really want to lose access to european markets? Dependance in these things ends up being two-ways...
Apart from the fact that Lloyd George ruled territorial concessions out as nonsensical and political suicide and rightly so (free trade had already been abandoned anyway), Reginald McKenna did not believe that he was dealing with a united American government on this issue, and he was largely correct. Wilson was a Democrat, and he successfully fought his reelection campaign in the fall of 1916 on a platform of peaceful pro-Entente sympathy, but the Federal Reserve Board's governors were not of the same mind. Benjamin Strong was the only real pro-Entente voice on the Board in late 1916 and early 1917, and illness largely relegated him to a side role; even if he hadn't been sick, Paul Warburg (no relation to the aforementioned Max) probably would've still successfully convinced William Harding, the president of the Board, that the ideal course for the United States was to let Entente orders slowly wind down to permit American industrial adjustment to the evaporating ability to pay. He was, after all, preaching to the proverbial choir. Political pressure from a British Treasury representative to the New York Fed and from Wilson was only able to secure a temporary moratorium on the November note, not a reversal of Fed policy, and McKenna was convinced that the hammer would fall in June 1917 at the absolute latest. At any rate, even if the British and Wilson would have been able to agree on some sort of program to supply the British with enough cash to keep going for a while longer, an extremely unlikely proposition - and at the rates of British spending and the rate of increase of that spending, this would probably have erased the Fort Knox gold reserves by 1918 - they would almost certainly not be able to actually implement it in the face of opposition from the Fed.
 
At any rate, the dependence of the Western Allies on the US was such that, by the summer of 1916 as American factories began to properly gear up for the production of Entente war matériel, over two-fifths of all Entente daily spending on the war was in the United States.

Interesting, I had no idea that they ended up spending so much on imports. It is surprising, because together the UK and France should have outclassed German/Austrian industrial production.
Was this inability of matching up to the germans in a war of attrition mostly due to the damage to french industry from the german occupation of (and war in) Belgium and northern France, or were France/UK much worse at using their supplies?

What the financial apocalypse of 1917 would do to the Western Allies is manifold. First, the effect would be, while not a series of falling dominoes, very quickly propagated to the rest of the alliance. All belligerent states, from Italy to Russia, were heavily implicated in borrowing in London, and British defaults on their American loans would cause financial crises in other states, too. Even France had been forced to effectively tie their fiscal policy to Britain's in the summer of 1916 after the (mostly failed) McKenna-Ribot negotiations. If anything, this might precipitate the Provisional Government to collapse faster; it would certainly not help matters, and it's nearly certain that the Russians would be forced to bow out of the war sometime before the 1918 campaigning season just as happened historically. Italy could also see its historical 1917 collapse turn from a mere disaster into a failure cascade; before Armando Diaz "pulled a Joffre" with the aid of British and French forces in OTL, Italy was in serious danger of falling into revolution in the north.
[...]
Apart from the fact that Lloyd George ruled territorial concessions out as nonsensical and political suicide and rightly so (free trade had already been abandoned anyway), Reginald McKenna did not believe that he was dealing with a united American government on this issue, and he was largely correct. Wilson was a Democrat, and he successfully fought his reelection campaign in the fall of 1916 on a platform of peaceful pro-Entente sympathy, but the Federal Reserve Board's governors were not of the same mind. Benjamin Strong was the only real pro-Entente voice on the Board in late 1916 and early 1917, and illness largely relegated him to a side role; even if he hadn't been sick, Paul Warburg (no relation to the aforementioned Max) probably would've still successfully convinced William Harding, the president of the Board, that the ideal course for the United States was to let Entente orders slowly wind down to permit American industrial adjustment to the evaporating ability to pay. He was, after all, preaching to the proverbial choir. Political pressure from a British Treasury representative to the New York Fed and from Wilson was only able to secure a temporary moratorium on the November note, not a reversal of Fed policy, and McKenna was convinced that the hammer would fall in June 1917 at the absolute latest. At any rate, even if the British and Wilson would have been able to agree on some sort of program to supply the British with enough cash to keep going for a while longer, an extremely unlikely proposition - and at the rates of British spending and the rate of increase of that spending, this would probably have erased the Fort Knox gold reserves by 1918 - they would almost certainly not be able to actually implement it in the face of opposition from the Fed.

Thanks for the details and timeline. Far from me to doubt the power of finance over the fate of governments and nations, but I'm genuinely surprised to hear that the UK's financial position had become so vulnerable by late 1916.

So, If I got this right, personal preferences among the members of the Fed board might have swayed the fate of the UK's finances? Whom did the Fed board represented by 1916, it being a recent political creation owned by private banks? Were thee political appointees, or did they represent the preferences of the New York bankers? Were there anti-british members, or was it all about fear over the UK's ability to repay the loans? If it was the later I'd expect that any american lenders would have an interest in the UK winning!

Minot nitpick about the UK and free trade: afaik Joseph Chamberlain had managed to get a rather toothless imperial preference system started in 1903, but the british treasury opposed it tooth and nail, claiming that tariffs might lead to retaliations against british exports - as if all the other countries weren't already placing tariffs on british goods! The UK stuck to free trade in every thing that mattered to the US: it still had zero tariffs on grain and on manufactured goods by 1913. That "genius" Alfred Marshall claimed that having the UK's exports clobbered by american and german competition protected behind tariffs, and the UK's home market open to their products, would just make british manufacturers stronger - free trade masochism at its best.
 
Really? I guess that shouldn't be surprising, given the resources and level of development of Canada at the time. Do you happen to know where to find statistics for production and trade in industrial products, and especially war supplies, during WW1? Unfortunately the UN only seems to make some data available since the 1960s, before that there were the SDN series, but I can't find them online.

Incidentally, I read that in a book detailing the conflict between Arthur Currie and Sam Hughes, by Tim Cook. Not too sure where he got that number, probably a bit of digging around in various archives.
 
If you look at a map showing the sides, it looks like a world war more than WWI and WWII.
In the world wars the losing alliance were a few isolated countries. Therefore I think the Seven Years War is a classic world war.
The reason they are called world wars can be their effect on the world. These two were wars that determined the future of the whole world without any doubt. Any other result would make the world look extremly diffrerent.
In the short term and in the longer term.
This is a level of importance the SYW didn't reach. In the world wars people felt they are fighting for the world, not necessarily for their countries (maybe except for the Ottomans..).
In WWII, defeating Axis was a humanity target.
In the world wars, II in particulary, all the normal people in the neutral countries had to take the same side - the Allied.
I don't like that. I like wars in which I can support any side I want. But this is what the term world war means - a war about the future of the world. The SYW is not less great, just less influental.
 
If you look at a map showing the sides, it looks like a world war more than WWI and WWII.
What?

Seven Years War
800px-SevenYearsWar.png


WWI
WWI-re.png



WWII
42.jpg


Pretty much the only combatant missing is Portugal, Spain and Sweden.
 
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