Is there a way to....

MortalD said:

I do agree that - 50 % is to much and not what i intended.
Unit with -50 % blitz will benefit only from the ability to split dmg BUT at the cost of loosing half his power when moved.

Suggested -25/33 should do just fine.

As for the artillery i only wanted to avoid range 4 land units as they r devastating vs AI.
I did NOT ask to remove range promotion. Artillery would simply get it for free - so it would start with range of 2 like cannon , but with free range making it 3.

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I agree with your first two point: a 150% damage blitz getting double XP seems fair for an expensive promotion.

But by your logic in the last sentence we should remove all aircraft too since their range is much larger than 4 tiles. I've never seen a situation where range four artillery helped me win a war I wasn't already running away with due to a tech lead.

If anything its ME playing my own game. So if i say to myself " no range promo for ships " then that means i will not use it and by that accomplish my own goal.

I find handicaping myself here and there is a good idea in ANY game if u think its to easy :]

I'm happy to discuss the range promotion and dont mind if it will end on discussion alone.

However i believe that at least -25% for blitz units is a balancing modification that would sooner or later be approved by whoever do not agree at the present.



Additional "spam" i wish to share :
I just started a game with the 52.2 beta ( - 25 % for blitz ).
I plan to make my frontal archers use range or any other promotion since they gonna move a lot. They will mostly hit just once and as so, i want to avoid blitz penalty to dmg. However my defensive archers on hills or garrisoned will have BLITZ for additional attack.

Blitz units can deal 150% of their initial dmg ! Thats a LOT for a boost from just one promotion.
OR u can split the dmg to weaken two at once or weaken one and finish another... So many options!
Ofc all that on a condition that u will not move. BALANCED ! Its "optional" or situational promotion now more then ever.

Catapult that can hit city twice? Dealing 150 % dmg ? Why not ! And AI will get a tiny tiny bit less overpowered by human blitz navy - so many positive effects !

Hope i convinced some of you

I'm actually in favour of keeping artillery and battleships as they are with a base range of 3. I was trying to clarify MortalD's point about wanting to reduce land range to 4, as it went into a semi-rant about the poor naval AI.

I was pushing a suggestion about merging range and indirect fire, there is a hint of synergy to what they do, like siege and volley did. They are seen as undesirable promotions, combined they would might be as useful as siege or blitz in certain situations, e.g. extremely rough terrain.

I don't like the new ranged blitz promotion as it makes ranged land units with the promotion less effective than units without it once you try to move and attack. You'll only get one 50% attack and you won't get the double xp either. I could live with the a 75% attack, as MortalD says it makes the promotion more situational and less of an automatic choice than before. It is a bit weird to have a promotion which requires you not to move being called Blitz though

Plan ahead to avoid moving ur archers/catapults and u will do fine, where the AI rarely if at all MOVE and then shoot in a single turn. In general AI will shoot only enemy units that are already in range of its own unit when the turn start. So new blitz favor AI - with is good - and can be used effectively by human player who can think and plan strategy of battle.

A logistics promotion for siege units which means you don't have to set up to fire could be an interesting promotion, starting Ballistas with it might get them some love

rfxmills said:

A logistics promotion for siege units which means you don't have to set up to fire could be an interesting promotion, starting Ballistas with it might get them some more love

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Only if a human is playing with them. The overall effect would be another nail in the AI's coffin.

Txurce said:

Only if a human is playing with them. The overall effect would be another nail in the AI's coffin.

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I don't see why it'd be that bad for the AI, it might not be able to plan to use it, but it would accidentally get itself into a position where it can use it half the time.

rfxmills said:

I don't see why the AI wouldn't be able to use that promotion, it might not be able to use it as efficiently as a human, but it could still use it.

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Sadly i agree with Txurce. As i noted myself, AI do not move and shoot at same turn in most cases ( it do with chariots alright tho ).

So whatever the ballista need to set up or not will not affect AI performance.

On the other hand, yes, it could be fun and entertaining unit for romans to have.

I'm okay with either 50% or 75% damage. Either way it has the potential for 200% experience rate, which is very powerful in of itself.

rfxmills said:

Would the first attack at 100%, and the second attack at 50% damage be better?

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This is not possible.

Thalassicus said:

I'm okay with either 50% or 75% damage. Either way it has the potential for 200% experience rate, which is very powerful in of itself

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At best, 50% turns ranged Blitz into "waste a promotion to accelerate future promotions."

While I would rather have it remain at 100%, 75% at least has the potential to provide an immediate benefit (except when moving and shooting).

Txurce said:

"waste a promotion to accelerate future promotions."

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Hitting two units for half damage reduces both their strength values for an assault. Less damage per attack also reduces the chance of overkill. A crossbow can finish off one 5hp unit, then attack another target. I do that often.

Something else I forgot to mention is I moved Indirect Fire and Repair earlier in their respective promotion trees. Earlier mobile units get march at tier 3, so it makes sense for tanks to get repair at tier 3. Indirect Fire is not a particularly useful promotion in the early game, and turns obsolete later, so I figured I'd move it up.

And this is where "promotion trees" mod u just added will come in handy

Yes, just don't use it for Vanguard units yet. Whoward and I are still figuring out some technical details with complex promotion trees.

That just probably saved u from a lot extra bug reports hehe

Thalassicus said:

I'm okay with either 50% or 75% damage. Either way it has the potential for 200% experience rate, which is very powerful in of itself.

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Combined 150% damage with double xp, looks like it would still be an automatic pick for most people.
Combined 100% damage with double xp, looks like it wouldn't be picked at all.

What combined total between these values would make it an interesting choice?

Thalassicus said:

Something else I forgot to mention is I moved Indirect Fire and Repair earlier in their respective promotion trees. Earlier mobile units get march at tier 3, so it makes sense for tanks to get repair at tier 3. Indirect Fire is not a particularly useful promotion in the early game, and turns obsolete later, so I figured I'd move it up.

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What about folding indirect fire into range? As you said Indirect Fire is not a very useful promotion early game and becomes obsolete later. While Range is at best a third choice behind siege and blitz.

Realistically your weapons wouldn't be able to shoot further in a flat line by being more experienced, your troops would have learnt how to fire them in a parabola to hit target further away, i.e. indirect fire.

rfxmills said:

Realistically your weapons wouldn't be able to shoot further in a flat line by being more experienced, your troops would have learnt how to fire them in a parabola to hit target further away, i.e. indirect fire.

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U got a point here. Ideally when using indirect fire combined with range, u should get range reduced by 1 every time indirect fire need to shoot over an obstacle.

But as we all know : "with our current modding tools... " :S

If 150% damage is too high and 100% too low, we could try 125%. That would be... about 60% damage per attack. I'm guessing we should try it at 150% for a while first.

I'd be okay with combining indirect fire and range for a tier-4 promotion (alongside blitz).

Combining I.Fire seems to end a lot complains about it being a poor choice as artillery get it anyway.

It also opens door to my artillery idea...

If people was to like a no range 4 ship/land units game. Airplanes are different story + AI does use them "well".

Thalassicus said:

If 150% damage is too high and 100% too low, we could try 125%. That would be... about 60% damage per attack. I'm guessing we should try it at 150% for a while first.

I'd be okay with combining indirect fire and range for a tier-4 promotion (alongside blitz).

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I don't think there was an outcry leading to the nerfing of ranged blitz, so I would hope 75% would be the extent of it.

To me, combining indirect fire with range is more OP. It creates the scenario MortalD cited with ships, where you can have a unit on any tile safely fire once or twice on a city or other units, as early as the medieval era. It dilutes strategy and makes conquest even easier, with the very weapons that have been steadily nerfed lately.