[Module] More Arcane WIP

For an Ashes of Erebus compatible version, please go to this thread.

Available Beta/Stable releases are in post 3 (here)
There is a test build available in post 18 (Here) - however, use of this version is not reccommended, as there are issues with it at present.

I'm debating whether it was such a good idea to think of this as I type this post. It might be just a bit more work than I initially intended.
Anyway.

This is a module I'm working on, started by one of the many random passing ideas that hit my head daily - namely: Adept on a horse...?

I've done a little preliminary planning to try and account for all the civilizations and their quirks, done my best to preserve the Amurite near-monopoly on magic and a few other things. Since I plan to make it available to everyone when I'm done, or whenever I need someone to test it (you lucky Guinea pigs - I mean testers), feedback is going to play a large part in this.

I'm working off a little curiosity I discovered. On the promotion 'Frost Giant Entourage' it mentions granting a secondary UnitCombat. Assuming a secondary UnitCombat also allows access to promotions of that UnitCombat (Someone please clarify that; it may dictate a few changes) then these proposed units would in theory be Arcane UnitCombat with a secondary of Mounted - even if it has to be similarly applied by promotion.
The reason being, if you've got a horse, you shouldn't be denied access to the equipment promotions available from whichever Master building it is that offers them.
That's an aside thing though, and just something I'd like to make possible, but I digress.

This is what I have so far - couched in my sometimes hard to interpret notes, so I apologize if something isn't clear.
Also, some of the things in here might not be possible, but I haven't actually tested this yet.
Put into Spoiler tags to keep the post from appearing ridiculously long.

Not-Unique Units:


This of course allows one to effectively have 12 Archmages - 4 Liches, 4 Archmages and 4 Mounted Archmages. Not entirely sure I like the idea of that yet, but rebalancing will come after it works.
At present, I've no plans to allow for Mounted Liches - that would be too unbalancing, and I don't (yet) feel like looking into the spell system.

I felt the trade off for being mounted should be losing the ability to make mana nodes, and I kept them to only 2 movement rather than the 3 of most mounted units because you're going to have trouble casting magic while riding at speed. It just made sense.

Since it's impossible to have two required buildings, the Mounted Adept does not depend on a Stable in-city to be built. However, as it's upgrades do not need the Mage Guild, they *do* need the Stable present, or Hippodrome in the case of the Archmage.
This may be changed to provide a building (Perhaps an Arcane Stable) which is necessary for the training and upgrading of all Mounted Arcane units, but this at present is a Future Planned Feature.

Following on from this, I started looking into the civilizations with unique differences:


Other notes:
The Hippus *should* have no problems with this. If, as I suspect, the secondary UnitCombat works the way I think it does, then the Mounted Arcane units should gain the Horselord Promotion automatically. Will require confirmation or some testing to be sure.
The Malakim and their ability to switch between Camel and Horse/Nightmare mounts - I plan to ignore this mechanic for the moment and see how it works in-game with what I've got right now. It may need a new set of Horse and Camel Rider promotions, but it depends.
As the Kuriotates don't use mounted units because of their centaurs, they do not get mounted arcane units. Again, this may change depending on if a fix can be found that prevents Adepts from upgrading to Mounted Adepts (And thus changing from Human to Centaur) which doesn't break anything.

At present, the default artstyle for these units will be the Horseman. Some few of the unique varients may, if a suitable candidate is available, gain a different artstyle. This should allow them to cycle through the different appearances they gain for each Civ; those that don't will follow the same rule as the varients - only where a suitable candidate is available.

Okay, that's a lot to go through, I admit it. I was trying to cover most of it.
While it's probably a bad idea, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread while I work on this module for you so I can take advantage of any further ideas, tweaks and changes anyone suggests.

Test version is up - see post 3

Right, I'm done for now.

Secondary Combats work just like you think; they grant access to the promotions of that unitcombat, and that's it.

I thought so, but I wanted to be sure. I had some odd effects last time I experimented with them, and that was in the Bannor Chain of Command module.
It'd be nice if I could set a secondary without needing a promotion to do it, but it's only one file and a few lines of XML so it doesn't really matter.

After some testing and improvements, the two alpha versions have been taken down. We now have here the first Beta version.

In this version:
Amurites, D'teshi and Scions all have their UU replacements in accordance with the plans laid out in the first post.
Svartalfar Illusionist now has a mounted counterpart which replaces the Mounted Mage.
Doviello and Clan of Embers don't get access to the Mounted Arcane Tree.
Fixed Khazad being able to get Mages and Archmages through the Mounted tree.
All races except Kuriotates and Mechanos can access the Mounted Arcane units.

Note that the RiFE Launcher will report issues with any modules that make changes to any Civilization (Due to assigning the unit classes) or the Adept, Mage and Archmage (Due to adding the Mounted Arcane upgrades). These conflicts should be safely ignorable.

If you've got further suggestions, find any bugs I didn't notice, or think there's some rebalancing necessary, go right ahead.

I have some comments (and you can do whatever you want with those):

I would not propose mounted archmages (and make mounted mages upgradable to normal archmage -you would get the "mounted" promotions, but not have 8 archmages).

I would propose some further effects of "mounted".

indeed, if "horseman + KoE" ==> mounted adept, +1mvt seems ok,
"Stirrups + sorcery" ==> I find strange that mounted adept can become mages (with sorcery).. but "lose" their horsemanship unless you get stirrups. + stirrups is kinda costly, and the effect of paying a costly tech just to get the effect that was already known seems bizarre.

Maybe they could get a twincast like effect ? (due to stirrups and the additional movement, the mage can move and cast at the same time and rest more easily) or a +20% for spell strength ?

(or maybe you could have the mounted adepts have a "+1turn casting delay" effect,meaning that they can cast less frequently than normal adepts; or a -20% to spell effect (they have to concentrate on riding)...and have the mounted mages lose these effects : the stirrups enabling them to be as proefficient in magic than normal mages.

and then for warhorses :
-same issue : warhorses is a costly tech, and gaining "only" +1mvt for it is meh.
(however, gaining 4 supplementary archmages is a good enough compensation, but then I think it is OP); and I still think that "why would an archmage that learned to cast spell on horses while being adept and mage would lose the ability (and need warhorses to regain the ability) when he becomes one of the 4 archmages of the civ? Does his ego forbid him to mount lesser horses once he reaches archmageship?)

(my opinion would be to create a new unit at warhorses : War-mage/Companion Mage : chanelling II as mages; 6 (1more than archmage) (the warhorse fights), a twincast effect; and 3mvt in total. and you could make the unit either a tier IV unit (limited to 4) or a tier III.5 unlimited (I would not do this as you would then not build mage anymore).
Those units would then not be another archmage, but would still be powerful to own.
(or if you add the negative effect on mounted adept, just give +1 mvt, +1:str: to the mounted archmage)

The Archmages were a bit of a bother when I was trying to work this out originally, so I'm aware they're going to need the most rebalancing.
On Stirrups and Warhorses, my basic reasoning was this: For normal upgrades, you need to have the advanced knowledge so you can learn the advanced level 2 and 3 spells. As tier one spells aren't very complex, the Adept's horses aren't likely to need too much training (Hence why I made them only need a mage guild, and not a stable). A Mage however has to cast spells that are of a higher teir and require more detail and such to cast, thus the horses need at least some training - especially if a Spectre suddenly appears out of nowhere courtesy of the caster!
The same sort of reasoning applies to the Archmages - the third teir of spells are the hardest of the lot, save only the ones granted by the 'Master of' promotions. If the horse doesn't need some training for that, then the Archmage certainly needs to be able to work them while riding.
I did note the expensive jumps myself, in the case of the Archmages I feel that the cost of getting to it makes up for getting 12 total Archmages - 4 Lich, 4 unmounted and 4 mounted. I'll grant it's not much of a compromise, but the mounted Archmages also can't build Nodes.

The Twincast idea is interesting, but I'm not sure what happens when a unit that can already cast two spells then takes the Twincast promotion. Could make them a bit overpowered, unless they were denied access to it - which could be gotten around by upgrading an Archmage with it to his Mounted counterpart.
OTOH, I think it's a fair idea that their spells might not be as effective at first - how does this sound:
Mounted Adepts have a promotion which gives them, say, a 30% to miscast magic, makes them 20% less resistant to spells because of the mount, and takes down the power of their spells a few notches.
The Mages then also get this effect but to a far lesser degree, maybe about half or something along those lines. Then when they upgrade to Archmages, they lose the effect entirely, no chance to miscast, normal resistance and no power debuff.

Finally, an idea I came up with while playing as D'tesh last night - the Vessel of D'tesh counts cities toward the national unit limit it has. If some way could be made to do something similar here - have both Archmages and Mounted Archmages count toward the same 4 Archmage limit - maybe that would overcome the issue of having additional Archmages.

Also, maybe OT, but I love your avatar. And Richard and his titles.

Valkrionn said:

Secondary Combats work just like you think; they grant access to the promotions of that unitcombat, and that's it.

Click to expand...

Do they also grant the weaknesses? i.e. Will those with a bonus against Mounted units get them against these mounted arcane units?

I just tested this. As far as I can tell, Mounted Arcane units do not share the weaknesses of actual mounted units.
I think it's because it looks only at the primary UnitCombat, which is Arcane units.

well, if the "twincast" was not an effect but an actual promotion... one could avoid archmages (upgraded from mounted mages) or mounted archmage (upgraded from archmage) to get it twice .. such sideways upgrade path would "only" save 1 promotion.
as for mounted adepts and mounted mages having "miscast/reduced effect" promotions... well, make it more "effect of the unit" instead of "promotions".
otherwise, a mounted mage upgraded from mounted adept would have the miscast of mounted adept AND the one of mounted mage... while a mounted mage upgraded from a standard adept would only have the miscast of mounted mage.

OT : I really like richard.. following him every week

Thanks for starting the thread. I didn't know about SecondaryUnitCombats and it's just what I needed in my mod.

I've been looking into some things with promotions actually, and I believe it is possible to have the M'd Mage debuff promotion remove the M'd Adept debuff when acquired. I'm still working on it, since I'm kind of new to experimenting with promotions, but I'm sure it can be done.
The only real question is, what should the debuffs be for the Adept and Mage once mounted? The figures I laid out are workable, but were only really as an example.

@Lplate: you're welcome I never really thought much of it until I stumbled over that frost giant promotion.

Lplate said:

Do they also grant the weaknesses? i.e. Will those with a bonus against Mounted units get them against these mounted arcane units?

Click to expand...

No. Secondary combats only grant access to the promotions. They're used heavily in the hamstalfar civ.

Derf, only way to have both units count to the same limit is to move it into python. If they're the same unitclass, you generally can only build one or the other, so xml only won't work.

As for the promotions, yes, can have the mage debuff remove the adept easily. Will just be a promotionexclude/promotionoverwrite tag.

Hmm, python really isn't something I particularly want to start messing around with. I might take a look at how the code for D'teshi cities counting for the Vessel unit limit works, but it isn't really going to be a priority for now.
The promotions should be a simple matter - I'll just nick and edit the bits I need from existing promotions. Saves me work and means there's less chance of buggering something up.

Derf said:

Hmm, python really isn't something I particularly want to start messing around with. I might take a look at how the code for D'teshi cities counting for the Vessel unit limit works, but it isn't really going to be a priority for now.
The promotions should be a simple matter - I'll just nick and edit the bits I need from existing promotions. Saves me work and means there's less chance of buggering something up.

Click to expand...

The issue is, I know precisely how that works, and it will not work in this situation. The tag is specific for cities, and is handled in the DLL. The only way your setup would work would be python.

I'd be able to help you with it, but like I said: Requires python.

Oh well. I could hope. Seems like either I've got to move beyond just merging python mods and actually learn some code, or ask very nicely if you'd care to lend a hand.

Might want to be patient though, I'm figuring my way through the debuff promotions at the moment, and I wouldn't want to find that putting up a new version with them breaks something.

Alright, I'm having a little trouble here. It might take a bit longer than I thought.
A little suggestion, Valk? On that 'Test Promo' entry which lists all the possibly options, add a comment after each so they're explained? I know some of them are no-brainers, but some of them I had to stop and think for a few moments to figure out.

So far I think I've found the ones I'm going to need - without dipping into nicking from other promotions, this time. This is what I've got so far.
PrereqUnits - Just sets what unit(s) can get the promotion, so I can set it to only be available to M'd Adepts, etc.
PromotionOverwrites - Used here for the M'd Mage promo to remove the Adept one when obtained.
PromotionReplacedBy - The reverse of the above - the Adept one removing itself when the Mage is acquired.

iResistMagic - I'm going to use this to debuff the Mounted Mages resistance to magic, obviously.
iSpellDamageModify - Another simple one, lowering the spell damage.

I couldn't find an entry that allows affecting the chance to miscast magic though.

Personally, I tend to believe it is iChanceMiscast, but I don't know why I'd suspect that - just a hunch, really.

... I knew that.
It was... it was just hiding from me. In plain sight.
Must find my reading glasses. Or get some.

New experimental version - preserves savegame compatibility, but also requires a bit of debugging. Be aware that at present, your Mounted Arcane units will be suffering a great deal if you use this, so don't use for everyday use.

I've got the following issues with this test version:
-Amurite Mounted Apprentices can still get a promotion that allows them to learn Channelling 2 - I thought that was meant for non-adept units. I'm fairly sure I copied over the nonmounted Apprentice's inability to get that promo, but maybe I edited it wrong, or accidentally removed it somewhere along the line.
-The new debuff promotions for each tier are meant to remove each other, and the mouse-over text even confirms this. However, in a test game the Adept debuff was not removed when upgraded to Mounted Mage, but the Mage debuff was gained.

Full list of changes:
Three new promotions added. Automatically applied to new mounted arcane units.
One is an M'd Adept debuff, superceded by the M'd Mage on upgrade.
M'd Archmage promo does not debuff, but does remove the M'd Mage.
Debuffs are not final and are subject to rebalance changes.