Average casualties in Classical age war?

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Originally Posted by Dachs

That sounds like complete horse dung. Is it from Tabari or something?

Sadly I can't remember who or where I got it from. I tried to look it up again so I could at least give a battle; I found something about champions dueling before Yarmouk, but nothing like the pwnfest I described.

Originally Posted by Dachs

Having such duels decide the outcome of an engagement without bringing in the actual army would have been nonsensical

I did not mean that it decided the battle without the army, but that with the loss of so many senior commanders, the Byzantine army was unable to perform effectively during the battle that followed.

[Dachs]

Originally Posted by Cheezy the Wiz

Sadly I can't remember who or where I got it from. I tried to look it up again so I could at least give a battle; I found something about champions dueling before Yarmouk, but nothing like the pwnfest I described.

The Yarmouk narrative is also apparently in a horrible state, but I don't actually know it all that well.

Originally Posted by Cheezy the Wiz

I did not mean that it decided the battle without the army, but that with the loss of so many senior commanders, the Byzantine army was unable to perform effectively during the battle that followed.

Sure, I know, but that doesn't really answer my objection. "Nineteen duels and then the headless army flops around a bunch of times and dies" isn't really materially different from "nineteen duels and then the army escapes into hyperspace and crashes on Vaal": in both cases, the ridiculous nineteen duels or whatever effectively decide the battle, desultory fighting or no.

[r16]

let me have an entirely uneducated , even ignorant guess . The source is a kinda ancient equivalent of modern day know it alls and number 19 somehow fits with the secret system only that author knows and he is using the totally made up war to justify the superiority of his system . Might be harsh , but isn't history always harsh ?

[Domen]

Originally Posted by taillesskangaru

If that's the case then the entire world would be ruled by Putin.

No because Poland would elect Mariusz Pudzianowski for president in such case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariusz_Pudzianowski

[ParkCungHee]

Originally Posted by Domen

No because Poland would elect Mariusz Pudzianowski for president in such case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariusz_Pudzianowski

That's not exactly a fearsome fighter.

[holy king]

Originally Posted by r16

let me have an entirely uneducated , even ignorant guess . The source is a kinda ancient equivalent of modern day know it alls and number 19 somehow fits with the secret system only that author knows and he is using the totally made up war to justify the superiority of his system . Might be harsh , but isn't history always harsh ?

i think we have a winner here.

[Verbose]

Originally Posted by Domen

No because Poland would elect Mariusz Pudzianowski for president in such case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariusz_Pudzianowski

I keep wondering how the Danish Crown Prince would fare? He's 16 years Putin's junior, and a Danish Special Forces officer on personal merit (attack diver). Allegedly the Danish Royal Familiy security detail isn't too worried about scenarios involving a lone attacker attempting some kind of physical assault. As long as HRH is aware of the attack, the would be assailant has it coming they seem to figure.

[Domen]

That's not exactly a fearsome fighter.

No but much better than Putin.

[r16]

Originally Posted by holy king

i think we have a winner here.

why of course you do . Empty talk is my speciality .

[Lord Baal]

Originally Posted by Verbose

I keep wondering how the Danish Crown Prince would fare? He's 16 years Putin's junior, and a Danish Special Forces officer on personal merit (attack diver). Allegedly the Danish Royal Familiy security detail isn't too worried about scenarios involving a lone attacker attempting some kind of physical assault. As long as HRH is aware of the attack, the would be assailant has it coming they seem to figure.

He married an Australian, so he can't be much of a tactician. Putin, on the other hand, shoots tigers from horseback and gets around with his shirt off.

[Flying Pig]

Jumping in here, but I read that the junior officers (NCOs?) of Classical Greek armies had command of one file, and they would stand at the front to lead it - therefore, after about 5% casualties, the leadership was decimated and the remaining forces, most often citizen-soldiers, would just run for it. Hoplite warfare wasn't exactly designed for mass attrition.

[Cheezy the Wiz]

If that were true, I would be curious to hear how the NCOs moved when phalanxes changed depth. At Leuctra, Epaminondas formed his hoplites into a 50-rank-deep phalanx, and at the other extreme, the Athenians stretched their phalanx out to four rows deep at Marathon, to avoid being outflanked. Obviously not all ranks were covered by NCOs at that point.

[Dachs]

I don't think anybody's managed to come up with an explanation of pre-Makedonian phalangial evolutions that matches all of the evidence shown in the ancient texts.

[Flying Pig]

Originally Posted by Dachs

I don't think anybody's managed to come up with an explanation of pre-Makedonian phalangial evolutions that matches all of the evidence shown in the ancient texts.

Given how well-versed the creators of modern 'sources' - TV and film as well as books - seem to be about military matters, is it out of the question that the authors simply didn't all know what they were talking about?

[Dachs]

Originally Posted by Flying Pig

Given how well-versed the creators of modern 'sources' - TV and film as well as books - seem to be about military matters, is it out of the question that the authors simply didn't all know what they were talking about?

Possibly. But for pre-Mak hoplite warfare, there are two sources predominant over all else, Thoukydides and Xenophon. Both were officers; Thoukydides served as a general during the Thraikian campaign against Brasidas and Xenophon was part of the entourage of the Spartan king Agesilaos II. It seems unlikely that both of those men could be so confused about the armies that they themselves had led to provide us with inaccuracies.

[ParkCungHee]

Originally Posted by Louis XXIV

ParkCungHee, I accept that there were battles with low casualty counts, but that's different than deciding it by agreed mutual combat.

Well, I did say "informal duels." Basically, the two best equipped men would run at each other first, chuck their spears and maybe pull out their swords, and whichever side lost that personal confrontation would usually break and run. So while it was not agreed mutual combat, it certainly is an example where there is real life basis of a conflict between champions deciding battles.

[Masada]

Maori often did the same thing, though some of them were 'formalized' duels in the sense that both parties agreed to a fight at a given location, at a certain time and between given parties.