Indonesian man jailed for public skepticism

Arwon said:

Hang on. Does Confucianism have gods?

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It can.

In the 5 nights I'm gonna be there from Sunday I expect to be so debauched I may well end up joining him.

Arwon said:

Hang on. Does Confucianism have gods?

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I find it surprising that you singled out Confucianism about that.

Yeah I guess most Catholics don't really believe in god either.

Arwon said:

Yeah I guess most Catholics don't really believe in god either.

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This is a good post.

AlpsStranger said:

The government could defend him, legalize dissent, and punish those who attack him.

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It did defend him, he was taken into protective custody and as I understand it a police investigation was opened. SBY is also fairly good at striking down stuff like this through pardons.

Lord Gay said:

Like most Americans I don't know much about countries outside the US (because we don't have maps), but IIRC Indonesia requires all citizens to belong to one of the five official religions, and this religion is indicated on their ID cards. Belonging to other religions, including being atheist, is not allowed. Ah, here we go (I was right):

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Yes, Indonesia does require people to belong to one of five religions and it is reflected on their ID cards. But you can belong to other religions and it is allowed. You just can't register as such or have it included on one's ID card. Most who object just fudge it and choose the joke option Hinduism (at least outside of Bali and East Jawa). And for the record most Indonesian's think it intrusive too. But because its a 'major' political issue for a small minority reform efforts tend to stall. Sukarno is on record as loathing it, and Gus Dur wanted to repeal it. Think of it as the Second Amendment of Indonesia with vastly less engagement and a fairly indifferent political establishment.

AlpsStranger said:

About the only thing the left does that drives me nuts is making excuses for cultures that don't allow freedom of conscience.

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Indonesia does. It just doesn't allow people to insult religion(s). Which is understandable considering how fraught Indonesia's religious past has been at times. For the record: I know lots of Indonesian atheists and agnostics who are open about it.

Lord Gay said:

Oh of course not. I like the irony of how they have "FoR", which allows you the "freedom" to choose from a pre-selected list. And blasphemy is always a nice touch. Perhaps this is whence Ireland is getting their inspiration?

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The blasphemy law probably isn't legal under the 1945 Constitution. But for whatever reason it hasn't been taken to the Constitutional Court level yet. I know people who have worked on taking it that far.

Masada said:

Indonesia does. It just doesn't allow people to insult religion(s).

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Which, to my mind, is a completely ridiculous rule.

I understand that I may be asking too much of Indonesia, but I'm shamelessly ethnocentric about my western standards of free speech.

We can't make the world perfect, but at least we can make it more free.

Eh, it's a small price to pay for domestic tranquility.

Masada said:

Eh, it's a small price to pay for domestic tranquility.

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But why do some religious people, Muslims in particular if I'm honest, demand total deference or respond with violence?

Is that really acceptable?

You must admit that it isn't.

AlpsStranger said:

But why do some religious people, Muslims in particular if I'm honest, demand total deference or respond with violence?

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It has nothing to do with that, and everything to do with the Jakarta Charter and the signal failure of Islamists to get anything out of Sukarno and Hatta in 1945.

Arwon said:

Hang on. Does Confucianism have gods?

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Possibly "Confucianism" here is being used as a catch-all term for Chinese religious practices? (Either by the Indonesian government or by whoever wrote the piece.)

MobBoss said:

Actually, I do appreciate it enough to simply state fact about it. Its not a 'lack of belief' unless one (incorrectly) defines 'belief' being solely religious in nature. Its not.

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What belief do you mean? I would assume you're claiming that atheists "believe there is no god", but that's not strictly accurate, because in no sense does declining to affirm the existence of an entity mean affirming its non-existence. They may maintain a position of ignorance, or even reject the question itself as valid; a common criticism, for example, is that all coherent definitions of god that are compatible with a scientific understanding of the universe are unfalsifiable, and thus cannot be reasonably affirmed or denied. All that can be said is that they affirm the non-existence of certain gods, but, then, so do you- both you and I affirm that Zeus does not exist, for example- so that is clearly not the defining characteristic of atheism.

Masada said:

Yes, Indonesia does require people to belong to one of five religions and it is reflected on their ID cards. But you can belong to other religions and it is allowed. You just can't register as such or have it included on one's ID card. Most who object just fudge it and choose the joke option Hinduism

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So Hinduism is kinda like the Armenian Millet of Indonesia.

Traitorfish said:

Possibly "Confucianism" here is being used as a catch-all term for Chinese religious practices? (Either by the Indonesian government or by whoever wrote the piece.)

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It's a grab-bag term for Chinese stuff.

taillesskangaru said:

So Hinduism is kinda like the Armenian Millet of Indonesia.

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I wouldn't go that far.

Formaldehyde said:

I vote for Christians all the time. So don't try to accuse me of being anything like you in that regard.

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Thats like me saying i'd still stop and help an atheist change a flat tire so I dont discriminate. This doesnt disprove you are still discriminatory in other ways. I'll just let your post history speak for itself along those lines.

"Discrimination" implies some sort of power relationship between two individuals, rather than simply being a case of one holding a negative disposition towards the other. What power does Formaldehyde possess that would permit him to discriminate against Christians, and what aspect of its exercise do you understand as discriminatory?

Traitorfish said:

"Discrimination" implies some sort of power relationship between two individuals, rather than simply being a case of one holding a negative disposition towards the other. What power does Formaldehyde possess that would permit him to discriminate against Christians, and what aspect of its exercise do you understand as discriminatory?

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Well, for starters, discrimination means more than just what you mention here, but let's work with that.

You say its a 'power relationship' and not simply holding a negative disposition. How do I hold 'power' over atheists in order to be labeled 'discriminatory' to them via your definition? I guess by your definition, no one in these forums is discriminatory at all....

MobBoss said:

Actually, I do appreciate it enough to simply state fact about it. Its not a 'lack of belief' unless one (incorrectly) defines 'belief' being solely religious in nature. Its not. Athiests 'believe' they are right, many times to the point of arrogance. And i'm honest enough that many religious people do this as well, but all that means is that humans are more than apt to be arrogant and rude in defense of their own particular belief systems. While atheists might like to consider themselves above all that, they really arent, and in the end arent any different than anyone else where a belief system is concerned.

As to being discriminatory - well, we all do that as well Form, including you.

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Everyone discriminates. That isn't the same as saying we should all be okay with discrimination.

MobBoss said:

Well, for starters, discrimination means more than just what you mention here, but let's work with that.

You say its a 'power relationship' and not simply holding a negative disposition. How do I hold 'power' over atheists in order to be labeled 'discriminatory' to them via your definition? I guess by your definition, no one in these forums is discriminatory at all....

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Is that intended to answer my question, or are you declining to answer it? It's not really clear.

MobBoss said:

Actually, I do appreciate it enough to simply state fact about it. Athiests 'believe' they are right, many times to the point of arrogance. And i'm honest enough that many religious people do this as well, but all that means is that humans are more than apt to be arrogant and rude in defense of their own particular belief systems. While atheists might like to consider themselves above all that, they really arent, and in the end arent any different than anyone else where a belief system is concerned.

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12 posts later...

Arwon said:

Yeah I guess most Catholics don't really believe in god either.

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ParkCungHee said:

This is a good post.

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Masada said:

It's a grab-bag term for Chinese stuff.

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I would have infinitely more respect for the Indonesian Government if the options were:

Islam
Catholicism
Protestantism
Hindu
Chinese Stuff.