Help with Tech Trading Limits

frisbee

Chieftain
Joined
Oct 2, 2008
Messages
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Hey Folks -- I normally play standard_size/normal_speed/domination/conquest Immortal Pangaea maps, which means Tech Trading is important. In an attempt to improve my strategy, I'd like to learn a little more about tech trading limits.

Basically, I'm a trading whore. Unless I'm avoiding a tech for bulbing purposes or the deal is too one-sided, I'll trade any tech for any tech with anyone (sometimes even military techs that might return on me)...but my understanding is that the AI has a limit for the number of techs they will trade away (except for Mansa).

As an example, I often tech Aesthetics, then trade that for everything else in the early tech trees. Is this a poor strategy? Would I gain an advantage by not trading for HBR (assuming I'm not rushing someone), or potentially other useless techs like fishing & sailing (needed later, obviously, but maybe not initially).


Thanks in advance--Frisbee
 
All AI leaders in the game have a tech trading limit before they go into WFYABTA mode (for "We fear you are becoming too advanced" - the text that appears when you hover over any red-lined tech in their diplomatic window). Someone else may be able to point to a reference on the limit for each leader; as you said and as far as I know, Mansa Musa is the only leader without a WFYABTA limit.

For this reason alone, trading for every technology you can get is not a sound strategy. Depending on who your opponents are, you may quickly find yourself without any tech trading partners. There are other considerations, too:
  • Why trade away a tech that enables a wonder you're building?
  • Why trade away a tech that grants a military advantage to a potential war opponent?
  • Why give advantages (i.e. techs) to the AI in return for techs you don't need, or more importantly, don't need right away?
  • Why trade for dead end techs (Divine Right is the worst culprit) at all?
  • Why trade techs to the score board leader and/or your greatest rival, when you can often wait and obtain them from less threatening competitors?
  • Corollary to the above: Why not trade techs to civs that are in a position to harm your greatest rivals?
Your specific strategy of researching Aesthetics (a relatively expensive early tech that the AI rarely researches) then trading it for techs you're missing is sound, provided you trade strategically as I'm alluding to above. However, I would caution you about thinking of techs such as Fishing and Sailing as "useless"! All techs have their uses, depending upon the map. Granted, if you mostly play Pangaea you probably find yourself land-locked fairly often, so fishing/sailing are lower priorities, but you might still find yourself on or near the coast, in which case they become more important. Sailing also enables trade routes on rivers, and Fishing allows you to work lake tiles (those two coins might come in handy in the early game). And the Great Lighthouse is a very attractive wonder...
 
As so often, it depends. This is hardly exhaustive, but some variables:

Opponents. Who are you playing against? A notorious techer, like Mansa Musa or (less markedly) Willem or Pericles, will trade for much longer. Others will become filled with fear much more quickly (e.g. Alexander, Pacal). If you can, trade with the latter group first and the former only when your past trading partners become reluctant. An AI like Mansa can run away in tech if you're not careful.

Relations. Who are you trading with? Some AI will trade at cautious, others won't. Some need to be at friendly (Toku, I guess?). More importantly, will trading with another AI's worst enemy bump your relations down a notch? Or will another AI trade your hard earned tech the moment you give it to them? (freaking Mansa.)

Short-term benefit to player. Obviously you're going to need fishing sooner rather than later, and even meditation/poly give you early access to AP buildings. Other techs can be less pressing. How soon do you really need compass, or optics? Can theology be delayed? Do you need longbows immediately? What good has divine right ever done anyone? (Apart from being trade bait...).

Long-term benefit to player. There are a number of techs you should retain for as long as possible, or at least until another trade-happy AI has broken your monopoly. Philosophy is a big one, when you're the first to get it through a bulb. AIs tend to ignore the religious techs once the religion is founded, and since philosophy is a prerequisite of lib. you've really no good reason to trade it away.

Hold on to military techs if you're planning to war any time soon (except, perhaps, if another smaller AI looks to be folding to a larger AI). Wonder techs should be retained if you want to build said wonder. If you want to build the Great Library, hold on to aesthetics as long as you dare so that you get a good head start on literature. Conversely, the AI are remarkably reluctant to trade away a wonder tech if they're building that wonder, so you can trade (e.g.) music to one AI and not have to worry about the other six getting it in the next turn, which makes siphoning gold across multiple turns a little easier. If you're really savvy, you can also pick which AI builds a wonder through selective trading (give up music to an AI situated at the other end of the world rather than on your door-step. Let an unpopular AI build the UN, so that they never become general secretary... etc.).

Vassals. If you win via domination or conquest, then presumably you pick up some vassals along the way. Think of vassals as a means to both (1) double-up on your research and (2) circumvent trade caps. Ideally, you want to have at least one good researching vassal because by that stage you can trade exclusively with them any time you please. I generally start to hit my trade caps shortly after rifling, but if you have a vassal this really doesn't matter. They still have to trade with you.

In short, trade sensibly and don't give away the good stuff for junk; you will hit your trade caps because the human virtually has to trade to keep up, but the tipping point tends to come post-lib. and once you've gotten lib. you really should be in a position to vassal one or two AIs, take them as trading partners, and win the game.
 
All AI leaders in the game have a tech trading limit before they go into WFYABTA mode (for "We fear you are becoming too advanced" - the text that appears when you hover over any red-lined tech in their diplomatic window). Someone else may be able to point to a reference on the limit for each leader; as you said and as far as I know, Mansa Musa is the only leader without a WFYABTA limit.

For this reason alone, trading for every technology you can get is not a sound strategy. Depending on who your opponents are, you may quickly find yourself without any tech trading partners. There are other considerations, too:

Good points. No tech is "useless" (except Divine Right), but many have a delayed benefit like fishing/sailing/religions.

Follow-up questions that get more specific (I win on Immortal pretty regularly, so this is more refinement of skills rather than new skills).

  1. Is there an easy way to calculate a WFYABTA?
  2. Is the WFYABTA a global calculation (example: trading with Mansa impacts how other civs view your tech progress)?
  3. Does a Civ care about your actual tech progress, or does it care about how often you have traded techs (or both)?
 
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