When Heat Kills: Global Warming As Public Health Threat

Global warming increases the chances of weather extremes. It's like playing with loaded dice towards more extreme events.

As the YouTube clip says, droughts and floods are both likely to be more common in a warmer climate. Evaporation is faster, so droughts can set in more quickly. And warm air can hold more moisture. The increase of moisture with temperature is more-than-linear. This means that even if "relatively cold" and "relatively warm" air masses were separated by the same temperature increment, say 10 C for example, more moisture will be wrung out of the warm air mass along a front.

But as Arwon's graph shows, the temperature increment will not be the same. It will increase too. So floods will be even bigger still.

I haven't looked up the stats, but I'll bet floods and droughts kill more people worldwide than either heat waves or cold snaps:
Globally, mortality and mortality rates have declined by 95 percent or more since the 1920s. The largest improvements came from declines in mortality due to droughts and floods, which apparently were responsible for 93 percent of all deaths caused by extreme events during the 20th Century.
source "Mortality" refers here just to that due to weather events.
 
Eh, we'll be fine:)

17 here, so it is MY future we're talking about, isn't it.

I'm not really afraid of burning to death, nor do I believe we have much control over the Earth's temperatures. Last I heard we were freaking out about a 1 degree rise in temperature. Natural cycles. Let it be:)
 
As the YouTube clip says, droughts and floods are both likely to be more common in a warmer climate. Evaporation is faster, so droughts can set in more quickly. And warm air can hold more moisture. The increase of moisture with temperature is more-than-linear. This means that even if "relatively cold" and "relatively warm" air masses were separated by the same temperature increment, say 10 C for example, more moisture will be wrung out of the warm air mass along a front.

But as Arwon's graph shows, the temperature increment will not be the same. It will increase too. So floods will be even bigger still.

I haven't looked up the stats, but I'll bet floods and droughts kill more people worldwide than either heat waves or cold snaps:

source "Mortality" refers here just to that due to weather events.

Mortality due to extreme events has decreased because we're better equipped to see them coming and deal with them with a rapid response. The problem is that with global warming, there will be a trend towards an increasing number of extreme events. It will become the new normal to have a lot of disasters the world over. If we press our luck too far, and wait too long to deal with climate change, the damage from extreme heat, droughts, floods, and all the rest will overwhelm our ability to respond.

For instance, we typically deal with localized droughts by sending food-aid from other areas where there are normal growing conditions. What happens when normal growing conditions are the exception? Where do you send food aid from? Wouldn't the strategy then be to secure the scarce resource from the desperate masses in drought stricken areas? It would probably be fenced off and guarded 24/7 for a wealthy few that can afford to pay high prices for what's left.
 
Eh, we'll be fine:)

17 here, so it is MY future we're talking about, isn't it.

I'm not really afraid of burning to death, nor do I believe we have much control over the Earth's temperatures. Last I heard we were freaking out about a 1 degree rise in temperature. Natural cycles. Let it be:)

Why bother to express an opinion when you know you have absolutely no understanding? As an exercise, I count at least four glaringly ignorant or wrong things in that third paragraph. I want you to try to identify them.
 
Eh, we'll be fine:)

17 here, so it is MY future we're talking about, isn't it.

I'm not really afraid of burning to death, nor do I believe we have much control over the Earth's temperatures. Last I heard we were freaking out about a 1 degree rise in temperature. Natural cycles. Let it be:)

This is among the stupidest post you've made here, in my opinion. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.
 
"burning to death" I can't even where you got that idea from, the idea isn't literally that the atmosphere catches fire.

"we have much control over the Earth's temperatures" is empirically wrong. CO2 content of the atmosphere affects heat absorption, CO2 content in the air has risen over the last couple of hundred years due to industrial activity releasing previously sequestered carbon from fossil fuels. Hence a rising global average temperature.

"1 degree rise in temperature" - in terms of the average temperature of the entire globe, 2 degrees celsius is generally seen as about as far as we can go before all sorts of large dislocative effects start to show up. We're currently on track for 4-6 degrees over the next century or so, depending on how much of the currently pledged mitigation actually occurs. I strongly suspect you think a rise in temperature of 1 degree means days which would previously have been 28 degrees celsius would now be 29 degrees celsius. Just no.

And "natural cycles" are factored into calculations about the temperature anomaly. You seriously don't think people thought of that? Global warming is what's left over once all the natural cycles are accounted for in temperature variations.

It's really an impressive amount of wrong packed into three lines.
 
Arwon said:
"burning to death" I can't even where you got that idea from, the idea isn't literally that the atmosphere catches fire.

Damned hydrogen. :(
 
"burning to death" I can't even where you got that idea from, the idea isn't literally that the atmosphere catches fire.

"we have much control over the Earth's temperatures" is empirically wrong. CO2 content of the atmosphere affects heat absorption, CO2 content in the air has risen over the last couple of hundred years due to industrial activity releasing previously sequestered carbon from fossil fuels. Hence a rising global average temperature.

"1 degree rise in temperature" - in terms of the average temperature of the entire globe, 2 degrees celsius is generally seen as about as far as we can go before all sorts of large dislocative effects start to show up. We're currently on track for 4-6 degrees over the next century or so, depending on how much of the currently pledged mitigation actually occurs. I strongly suspect you think a rise in temperature of 1 degree means days which would previously have been 28 degrees celsius would now be 29 degrees celsius. Just no.

And "natural cycles" are factored into calculations about the temperature anomaly. You seriously don't think people thought of that? Global warming is what's left over once all the natural cycles are accounted for in temperature variations.

It's really an impressive amount of wrong packed into three lines.


This, and I wouldn't say it's your future GW, so much as the future of any children you might have. The worst of what we know will happen will be kicking in 40-50 years or so from now. And then depending on what we do in the interim, things could continue to get much worse.
 
Alright... *cracks knuckles*

It is time to start wading into this thread.

Because "killer cold" does not exist...

Also, "think of the children". You know someone run out of good, well reasoned arguments when they have to pull that one.
Killer cold obviously exists. If the average temperature warmed by one degree, it would not mean that all cold temperatures will become one degree warmer. All it means is that the average global temperature will be one degree higher. This more energetic atmosphere goes hand in hand with an increased variation in temperature, as has been mentioned by Arwon.

Thus, in a future affected global warming, the fact that some people will still probably freeze to death does not provide evidence disproving climate change, just as someone suffering from heatstroke today is not positive proof of global warming's existence.

As for 'think of the children', it is cliche, but it is used for a reason: it encourages people to adopt a long-term consideration of a situation.

And maybe people have began to ignore the other arguments because not a single one of the doomsday predictions about global warming made for propaganda effect in the past has come anywhere near to pass. Blaming every drought and storm on "climate change" for lack of any better arguments is kind of wearing thin by now, because everyone realized those are not new. And can be dealt with.
The problem here has been a large amount of people discussing things of which they have very little knowledge. Both sides are guilty of this, and there have been influential forces investing large amounts of money towards casting doubt on the scientific consensus in the unfortunate reality of global warming.

Your statement regarding 'doomsday predictions' is incorrect. Projections of rising carbon dioxide levels, rising atmospheric and oceanic temperatures, and the loss of sea ice have been proceeding apace with, and in some cases in excess of the most pessimistic projections of the International Panel on Climate Change's reports, and the IPCC is a notably cautious and conservative organization in its statements regarding climate change.

I agree that it is incorrect to blame every storm and drought on global warming. In a scenario where there is no human-made climate change, some of these events may have happened anyway. All climate change does is change the average.

The key distinction to be made here is the difference between weather and climate. Weather is what is happening outside right now, while climate is average weather, taken over the course of decades. 30 years is a general rule of thumb for a threshold value where you can begin to make realistic judgements about climate in a given region. One day of rain does not make a desert cease being a desert, and one year of drought or flooding cannot be positively attributed to climate change. One given year may be warmer, colder, wetter or drier than the year that preceded it. However, over the course of many years, statistical trends can begin to emerge, and from these you can begin to map clear trends in climate.
More people die during a cold snap than they do during a heat wave. That includes children.
First of all, this is a humongous generalization. Unusually hot and cold weather can both have different levels of lethality. Secondly, I will refer you to my previous statements, where I pointed out the importance of investigating long-term trends, not individual events.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/europe-cold-snap-claims-more-than-260-lives-20120205-1qzej.html
vs
[wiki]Summer 2012 North American heat wave[/wiki]
260 vs 82 certainly backs up my point.
A single data point simply can't be used to illustrate a trend. But more to the point, there are far, far more variables leading to those fatality rates than mere temperature.

But it is going to kill people with heat? How does that work out?
If the atmosphere is hotter, then there will be more energy available in the atmosphere, which will result in stronger and more extreme weather events. Examples of this could be a stronger than normal hurricane, or a protracted drought, or very heavy rainfall.

Higher energy in the atmosphere could also lead to the expansion of Hadley Cells, which would lead to shifting climate bands and the expansion of the Earth's deserts, in many cases towards some of the world's breadbaskets and centers of agricultural production. This is a tremendous food security concern, and an obvious way for warmer weather to lead to increased fatalities.

Additionally, increases in temperature are more extreme at higher latitudes. Thus, the greatest warming is happening over the Earth's polar ice caps. These are far away from our planet's major population and agriculture centers, but as their huge stores of ice melt- and they are unequivocally melting, often at alarming rates- they are driving up water levels. This goes hand in hand with the thermal expansion of water- as temperatures across the world rise, water molecules become more energetic, increasing their volume. The result of all of this is a global rise of sea levels, which is a huge threat to the huge amounts of infrastructure and human civilization built on coastlines, or in areas at low elevation. Massive human relocation necessitated by coastal flooding is a potential huge source of strife and obvious economic cost.

Yes, but so what? Whatever does that have to do with "global warming"?

You want examples of relatively recent big, prolonged droughts that affected millions of people and huge areas of continents? 1876-78, India. 1933-39, the "Dust Bowl" in the USA. 1966-75, Africa. There have always been droughts. There have always been storms. These last few years are not different from the historical record.
There have indeed been many horrible historical droughts and storms. What we need to look at is a decade-by-decade set of measurements of these events, so that we can observe the long-term trend. As mentioned earlier, a certain threshold of time is needed before we can state with reasonable confidence that such events are the result of trends of global warming and increased temperature.

Eh, we'll be fine:)

17 here, so it is MY future we're talking about, isn't it.

I'm not really afraid of burning to death, nor do I believe we have much control over the Earth's temperatures. Last I heard we were freaking out about a 1 degree rise in temperature. Natural cycles. Let it be:)

Please enlighten me:crazyeye:
Arwon has done a fine job of explaining some of what is erroneous with your statements. I'll take the opportunity to add on to and reinforce what he's said.

It's not just your future, it's everyone on earth's future for a very long time into the future.

You won't burn to death, global warming will not make the earth that hot, at least in the next century.

Humans have a shocking amount of control (unintentional control, akin to someone accidentally leaning on a control lever, but control nonetheless) over the climate, due to our release of methane, sulphur dioxide and carbon dioxide into the atmosphere through agriculture, industry, deforestation and other activities associated with modern civilization. These amounts of human produced, or 'anthropogenic' greenhouse gases are small compared to the total amount of greenhouse gases in the Earth's atmosphere, but they are enough to cause an imbalance in the system, wherein the earth absorbs more incoming radiation than it emits. The difference is what is causing our earth to become more heated, and is the basis for what we call climate change.

1 degree may not sound like a lot, but a one degree increase over the whole world is a massive increase in energy in our global system. Adding the facts that the effects of global warming are exaggerated at the poles, and that many of the earth's systems are vulnerable to positive feedback loops, even a change of a few degrees could have tremendous consequences.

As an example of a positive feedback loop, melting ice caps result in the exposure of more dark blue ocean, and the disappearance of more clean white ice. As dark colours absorb heat and light colours reflect it, the exposed ocean absorbs more and more heat, adding it to the earth system, while the ice reflects less and less light (light from the Sun striking atoms and molecules on the Earth imparts energy on these particles, which is how the Earth's surface is heated). Thus, the loss of sea ice accelerates the loss of sea ice, causing it to melt far faster than early climate models had predicted.

*****

Anyway, I spent the last summer employed as a climate change researcher (officially a 'Climate Change Assistant Analyst') at the Yukon Research Center. I'm a university student specializing in ecology and environmental systems, so this is one of my areas of expertise. I'd like to help people to learn and make informed decisions about climate change, and felt this would be a good place to start.

If you are interested in a fantastically put-together series of videos and interactive learning modules about climate change, then let me direct you to this website, which has served as a valuable education resource to me and may do the same for you. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Two eyes, as often as I can spare them. ;)
 
This, and I wouldn't say it's your future GW, so much as the future of any children you might have. The worst of what we know will happen will be kicking in 40-50 years or so from now. And then depending on what we do in the interim, things could continue to get much worse.

What is supposed to happen in 40-50 years? I'll be 57-67 then and so probably will still be breathing;)

Alright... *cracks knuckles*

It is time to start wading into this thread.

Killer cold obviously exists. If the average temperature warmed by one degree, it would not mean that all cold temperatures will become one degree warmer. All it means is that the average global temperature will be one degree higher. This more energetic atmosphere goes hand in hand with an increased variation in temperature, as has been mentioned by Arwon.

Thus, in a future affected global warming, the fact that some people will still probably freeze to death does not provide evidence disproving climate change, just as someone suffering from heatstroke today is not positive proof of global warming's existence.

As for 'think of the children', it is cliche, but it is used for a reason: it encourages people to adopt a long-term consideration of a situation.

The problem here has been a large amount of people discussing things of which they have very little knowledge. Both sides are guilty of this, and there have been influential forces investing large amounts of money towards casting doubt on the scientific consensus in the unfortunate reality of global warming.

Your statement regarding 'doomsday predictions' is incorrect. Projections of rising carbon dioxide levels, rising atmospheric and oceanic temperatures, and the loss of sea ice have been proceeding apace with, and in some cases in excess of the most pessimistic projections of the International Panel on Climate Change's reports, and the IPCC is a notably cautious and conservative organization in its statements regarding climate change.

I agree that it is incorrect to blame every storm and drought on global warming. In a scenario where there is no human-made climate change, some of these events may have happened anyway. All climate change does is change the average.

The key distinction to be made here is the difference between weather and climate. Weather is what is happening outside right now, while climate is average weather, taken over the course of decades. 30 years is a general rule of thumb for a threshold value where you can begin to make realistic judgements about climate in a given region. One day of rain does not make a desert cease being a desert, and one year of drought or flooding cannot be positively attributed to climate change. One given year may be warmer, colder, wetter or drier than the year that preceded it. However, over the course of many years, statistical trends can begin to emerge, and from these you can begin to map clear trends in climate.
First of all, this is a humongous generalization. Unusually hot and cold weather can both have different levels of lethality. Secondly, I will refer you to my previous statements, where I pointed out the importance of investigating long-term trends, not individual events.

A single data point simply can't be used to illustrate a trend. But more to the point, there are far, far more variables leading to those fatality rates than mere temperature.

If the atmosphere is hotter, then there will be more energy available in the atmosphere, which will result in stronger and more extreme weather events. Examples of this could be a stronger than normal hurricane, or a protracted drought, or very heavy rainfall.

Higher energy in the atmosphere could also lead to the expansion of Hadley Cells, which would lead to shifting climate bands and the expansion of the Earth's deserts, in many cases towards some of the world's breadbaskets and centers of agricultural production. This is a tremendous food security concern, and an obvious way for warmer weather to lead to increased fatalities.

Additionally, increases in temperature are more extreme at higher latitudes. Thus, the greatest warming is happening over the Earth's polar ice caps. These are far away from our planet's major population and agriculture centers, but as their huge stores of ice melt- and they are unequivocally melting, often at alarming rates- they are driving up water levels. This goes hand in hand with the thermal expansion of water- as temperatures across the world rise, water molecules become more energetic, increasing their volume. The result of all of this is a global rise of sea levels, which is a huge threat to the huge amounts of infrastructure and human civilization built on coastlines, or in areas at low elevation. Massive human relocation necessitated by coastal flooding is a potential huge source of strife and obvious economic cost.

There have indeed been many horrible historical droughts and storms. What we need to look at is a decade-by-decade set of measurements of these events, so that we can observe the long-term trend. As mentioned earlier, a certain threshold of time is needed before we can state with reasonable confidence that such events are the result of trends of global warming and increased temperature.



Arwon has done a fine job of explaining some of what is erroneous with your statements. I'll take the opportunity to add on to and reinforce what he's said.

It's not just your future, it's everyone on earth's future for a very long time into the future.

You won't burn to death, global warming will not make the earth that hot, at least in the next century.

Humans have a shocking amount of control (unintentional control, akin to someone accidentally leaning on a control lever, but control nonetheless) over the climate, due to our release of methane, sulphur dioxide and carbon dioxide into the atmosphere through agriculture, industry, deforestation and other activities associated with modern civilization. These amounts of human produced, or 'anthropogenic' greenhouse gases are small compared to the total amount of greenhouse gases in the Earth's atmosphere, but they are enough to cause an imbalance in the system, wherein the earth absorbs more incoming radiation than it emits. The difference is what is causing our earth to become more heated, and is the basis for what we call climate change.

1 degree may not sound like a lot, but a one degree increase over the whole world is a massive increase in energy in our global system. Adding the facts that the effects of global warming are exaggerated at the poles, and that many of the earth's systems are vulnerable to positive feedback loops, even a change of a few degrees could have tremendous consequences.

As an example of a positive feedback loop, melting ice caps result in the exposure of more dark blue ocean, and the disappearance of more clean white ice. As dark colours absorb heat and light colours reflect it, the exposed ocean absorbs more and more heat, adding it to the earth system, while the ice reflects less and less light (light from the Sun striking atoms and molecules on the Earth imparts energy on these particles, which is how the Earth's surface is heated). Thus, the loss of sea ice accelerates the loss of sea ice, causing it to melt far faster than early climate models had predicted.

*****

Anyway, I spent the last summer employed as a climate change researcher (officially a 'Climate Change Assistant Analyst') at the Yukon Research Center. I'm a university student specializing in ecology and environmental systems, so this is one of my areas of expertise. I'd like to help people to learn and make informed decisions about climate change, and felt this would be a good place to start.

If you are interested in a fantastically put-together series of videos and interactive learning modules about climate change, then let me direct you to this website, which has served as a valuable education resource to me and may do the same for you. I'll be keeping an eye on this thread. Two eyes, as often as I can spare them. ;)

Interesting. I'll admit I'm still not convinced but I'll try to look at those links.
'
 
Ultimately, you're the only person who can convince yourself. All I do is provide information, it's up to you to decide if you're going to use it or not.

Though I'd be really, really happy if you did use it. :)

Anyway, if you could tell me what bits you find unconvincing I'd be more than happy to have a look at them with you. :)
 
What is supposed to happen in 40-50 years? I'll be 57-67 then and so probably will still be breathing;)

As a person in the first world, and assuming you're still living in NYS, it's likely that anything that happens will not harm you in a physically direct way. Of course, that will depend on how good we are at shifting to alternative energy sources; by 2060, there's probably not going to be a lot of cheap oil left, and mass burning of coal may or may not be acceptable. If there's a big old heat wave, and the power grid isn't able to run everyone's AC units simultaneously, the older crowd is going to have a rough time of it.

There's also the risk of more hurricanes and large storms striking the east coast, but people are reasonably good at dealing with those now. Of course, if you got a Katrina style hurricane in NYC in a time of rising sea levels, who knows. Not that the whole city would be wiped out hollywood style, but the streets might be under two feet of water for a few weeks.

Then there's the social impacts that are much harder to predict. While the Northern areas of the world, say, stuff above the Mason-Dixon line or higher, are likely (maybe) to see increased agricultural output (especially the Pacific Northwest), you're likely to see massive economic disruption around the equator and southern hemisphere, owing to crop failure and the resulting food shortages (that might hit us as well, since we're pretty bad at managing water resources in the global North, and declining glacial pack isn't going to make that any easier). Food shortages mean social instability, and instability is bad. Causes wars bad. Causes lots of Hispanic folks to try to emigrate Northwards en-masse (depending-on-your-political-outlook) bad.

There's also the possibility of the oceanic food chain collapsing, brought on by warmer temperatures and acidification. Can't predict what would happen, but it likely won't be good. This category also includes the particularly nasty possibility of a algal bloom and massive H2S release. I've forgotten the circumstances that cause it, but it's happened before. If that were to happen near a populated area, there would be thousands dead.

Finally, add to all that the potential of the world to knee-jerk. If global warming starts getting real severe, we might (probably won't) impose severe limits on carbon use. That means less travel for everyone, but more importantly, less global trade, as it will be too damned expensive. And less global trade is bad for local economies too. We might also knee jerk another way. People are pretty convinced that if we wanted to artificially lower the temperature of the Earth, we could do it by flooding the upper atmosphere with particulates. And it would be cheap. Cheap enough that each big nation could do it on their own. That means the possibility of global thermostat wars. But the real problem is that we have next to no idea what the side effects would be. We might do something dumb, like destroy the ozone layer at the same time.



Now, with all that said, I'm going to add a disclaimer: this is me quickly prognosticating. I am certainly not an expert on the topic, but they are what comes to mind when I think about potential effects of global warming. I'm sure people will correct me here, but you also really should read around about this stuff.
 
You know what, when I think about stuff like this I think about technology, and I think about how in the past five hundred years (Arbitrary number) we've developed more technology than we have in like the past ten thousand or more before that fact. I can't even imagine what we will be able to do by 2060. I mean, power grids having trouble running AC units? Who says we will need any of the kind of power we need now for any of those purposes in 2060? How do we know that we won't have come up with a technological solution anyway?

Honestly, that's my same problem with NOT using oil. People say "But we'll run out and won't have anything left in the 22nd century. Why does it matter? We probably won't need it then anyways. We'll have invented some other energy source.

Maybe I'm wrong and there is some reason people seem to know global warming will affect us but I don't see how we'd know for sure that we won't have developed a tech solution. It seems like we would have done so by then.
 
Stuff like AC units aren't going to get much cheaper. There's a minimum amount of energy you must put in, and while efficiency will get you some gains, it's likely demand growth will outstrip it by the looks of things. And there are no viable alternatives to fossil fuels at the moment. Nuclear fission is certainly the closest, but people won't go for it for stupid and irrational reasons.

But we have the tech solution now. You may have missed it in my post, but we could absolutely stop global warming from happening. Even make the Earth an ice ball again. All while burning lots of fossil fuels, and on the cheap. But it's not a perfect solution; not even close.

While tech might, and probably will, buy our way out of this one, there is no guarantee that it will do so. Thus the best option is to act now, make small sacrifices, and stick with the devil we know. Somewhere out there is the unsettling reality of the Great Filter.
 
Stuff like AC units aren't going to get much cheaper. There's a minimum amount of energy you must put in, and while efficiency will get you some gains, it's likely demand growth will outstrip it by the looks of things. And there are no viable alternatives to fossil fuels at the moment. Nuclear fission is certainly the closest, but people won't go for it for stupid and irrational reasons.

But we have the tech solution now. You may have missed it in my post, but we could absolutely stop global warming from happening. Even make the Earth an ice ball again. All while burning lots of fossil fuels, and on the cheap. But it's not a perfect solution; not even close.

While tech might, and probably will, buy our way out of this one, there is no guarantee that it will do so. Thus the best option is to act now, make small sacrifices, and stick with the devil we know. Somewhere out there is the unsettling reality of the Great Filter.

What's the deal with fission?

I saw something about us being able to stop global warming. I don't totally understand why we wouldn't do it then.

Honestly, your post actually CONFIRMS my thoughts that something is fishy about the whole thing. I've got no qualms about "Making small sacrifices" but I think some environmentalists take it altogether too far, and seemingly for no reason considering tech will "probably" get us out of it. Since that is probably the case, I see no reason to worry excessively.

I hope you're right, I'm not too optimistic GW ;p

Well, I'm somewhat biased by the "God is in control" thing, but I'm trying not to bring that into it:p

Secular logic works on secular people;)
 
"Technology will save our current rich world lifestyle without us doing anything" is magical thinking.
 
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