The Deity Science Challenge

This is the sequel to the Emperor version but with some changes and fine-tuned for hopefully some better results.

1.PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE INTRODUCTION. SERIOUSLY.
2. The purpose of this challenge is to test if a Science-based civ is better at Science Victories than other civs. 3 Science based civs are balanced with 3 non-Science based civs.
3. Each player can play the exact same map with the following 6 civs:

-Babylon
-Korea
-Maya
-Siam
-Inca
-Arabia

4. Since prior map knowledge is mandatory, there is an alternate save that includes a full reveal from the 2nd turn to show you where all the CSs and AI Civs will start. It is only provided for those that wish to save time on their first play-through. It will show all wonders and terrain but no later revealed resources like Aluminum or Oil. All resources are in fixed locations. Each AI Capital will be in the same place but later cities are not guaranteed to be located in the same spots.
5. Because prior map knowledge is expected, there are no real spoilers so the following AI Civs will be your opponents:

-America
-Greece
-Mongolia
-Iroquois
-China
-France
-Ethiopia

6. GnK plus all DLC's except the map Cradles are required to play the saves. There will be no vanilla versions of the saves.
7. Settings are standard speed, custom map that you can see in the MapReveal save, 8 Civs (7 opponents) and 16 City-States in fixed locations. All VCs are enabled but Science is the only desired VC.
8. There are NO RUINS and NORMAL BARBARIANS to keep the results from being swayed by unpredictable advantages. Barbarians are not viewed as a detriment to the game as they help units get promotions and complete quests for CSs. Settings like combat animations and quick movement can be set to your own personal preferences.
9. Similar strategies are NOT required as each Civ has different strengths and weaknesses. Varying strategies are encouraged since fastest time is the goal.
10. Games are infinitely replayable but reloading specific turns are discouraged. Since this is an unofficial Challenge I have no way to make sure people arent using exploits or cheats. This is just for the trusting souls that play with integrity and a genuine curiosity to test Science Victories.

Yeah, that's a lot of text but this is a Civ 5 forum where some of us like to be thorough and complete in communicating. This isnt for everyone and can be tedious to try the exact same game with multiple civs. Only the dedicated are expected to try this but any efforts and comments are welcome.

Thanks ... and let the games begin.

View attachment DeitySciInca_0000.Civ5Save

View attachment DeitySciArabia_0000.Civ5Save

View attachment DeitySciBabylon_0000.Civ5Save

View attachment DeitySciKorea_0000.Civ5Save

View attachment DeitySciMaya_0000.Civ5Save

View attachment DeitySciSiam_0000.Civ5Save

View attachment DeitySciMapReveal_0002 BC-3920.Civ5Save

Awesome, HammerRabbi! Going to test them out right away.

I doubt I've got the wherewithal to play all 6 games (I don't have the Korea / Babylon DLC in any case) but I might play the Inca and Siam ones and report back with my findings.

You probably need the Korea and Babylon DLC to play the saves.

A big hand & /cheer here as well.

Most likely people will in general not play this 6 times so hopefully all civs will used even if not equally. To support the variety I'll prolly start with the Arabs and make a less than extremely pacifist approach provided that there're some 4-legged mammals nearby.
What I am unsure at this point, after a very brief look at the map, whether to pursue a religion or not.

G

Mesix said:

You probably need the Korea and Babylon DLC to play the saves.

Click to expand...

Oh really? That's put a spanner in the works. Hopefully it'll work otherwise i'll have to fork out more money.

Hammer Rabbi said:

6. GnK plus all DLC's except the map Cradles are required to play the saves. There will be no vanilla versions of the saves.

Click to expand...

As reported by Hammer Rabbi in the OP.

Mesix said:

As reported by Hammer Rabbi in the OP.

Click to expand...

Good point. I guess the text "PLEASE READ THIS ENTIRE INTRODUCTION. SERIOUSLY." wasn't big enough or red enough for me to see .

Bah. Don't think I'll be taking part. I'd need to buy Korea, Wonders of the Ancient World, Denmark, Babylon and Explorer's Map Pack, which would set me back £15.

Oh well.

First game gave quite a bunch of insight, which I want to share It is not full, and I have saved it, but I will most likely replay it, as I failed to make the Rationalism jump pre-T100 even though I played OCC-ish with Babs and beelined to Astronomy, which is usually the recipe for success with them.

America will be sure to DoW early (that is to be expected, so I sold a lux to them), which is kinda unpleasant, as even though you're on a hill, the position is a bit difficult to defend - much more difficult than the Emperor challenge. However, 2-3 archers will deal with the entire offensive easily, as America is once again proving to be one of the worst early DoWers. Why the hell would you DOW without any Catapults or UU's in place and just with a bunch of Warriors, Archers and an occasional Spearman?

At the start of the game, the starting position is kinda barren (8 turns for 2nd citizen and 22 turns for 3rd), so getting a few gold pieces from finding CS is crucial. Managing to buy the jungle tile with the citrus as early as possible helps a lot unless one wants to go for a second settler straight away and settle another city.

In any case, I discovered it is a good idea to scout west first (it is no spoiler, as the entire map is opened to us). The States like to play aggressively, so they are sure to found cities in your direction, which means they can close the narrow gap to the western side of the map, making you unable to meet anyone else there, while the eastern side contains China, Greece and France, which are usually good explorers, so they will be sure to come knocking on the door sooner or later.

since there are really no spoilers: if you want a religion you can take your warrior south and find the 2 religious CSs first for 16 faith. that will get you the first or 2nd pantheon in the game and you wont need to build an early shrine. but if you want a religion sped up the shrines help in a 4-city set up. i went desert folklore the first time and with maya I took the +1 cult/faith from wine because the very first pantheon taken was desert folklore, haha. i founded a religion by turn 80 or so, it was the 3rd or 4th religion. plus those 2 faith CSs can be friended to speed it up some too. I tried to balance the CS placement for players who choose to go patronage w/Siam (or anyone really) as well as having Greece in the game to make it competitive for CSs.

i play tested through turn 150 or so to see how the power shifts and it was varying based on the civ i was playing, but i didnt test with every civ. hopefully there will be no glitches that I didnt foresee from late game issues.

edit: also, for exploring, you are placed near a coast that isnt completely holed in my ice or land so you can send a unit or two to the west by water if America closes you in. in my play tests, china, france and greece dow'd me but America didnt. i actually got a DoF with them twice.

Crdnl Richelieu said:

Bah. Don't think I'll be taking part. I'd need to buy Korea, Wonders of the Ancient World, Denmark, Babylon and Explorer's Map Pack, which would set me back £15.

Oh well.

Click to expand...

sorry to hear, but holiday sales are coming so a steam sale is inevitable and probably a 50-75% off kind for the DLCs.

I'm a bit confused by this challenge. I haven't looked at the maps yet, but won't terrain/map location be the most important factor (more important than the played civ, except in the case of Babylon which will be the clear winner regardless of external circumstances)? For example, unless there is a hill/mountain start then the Incans will just be a mediocre civ.

Also, time to finish a science VC particularly on Deity is mainly driven by the ability to maintain friendships/RA's. If you are able to sign 4 waves of 5 RA's (plus build the PT) this will have a huge impact on time. This is why OCC is so effective since you can more easily maintain friendships when not expanding (as long as your start is at least somewhat isolated, i.e., not in the center of the land mass and surrounded by aggressive AI civs). Doesn't this heavily favor the civs that are better for small/tall? Is it possible to have a competitive time with a wide strategy on Deity? I'm talking about better than T230-250, which is easily possible on Deity just going OCC (with Babylon being the huge favorite using this strategy).

ceteris paribus ... all things being equal (and i added "and fair" to account for the terrain argument). people have been trying to prove/disprove that one civ is better than the other in a sci vic. many have made the assertion that it cant be really proven because of so many random factors like UA/UU/UB. terrain, ruins, strategy, etc.

I made this map to keep all things equal. Load the map reveal. No one civ has a bias or disadvantage from the start. All civs and CSs start in the same spot. The only random causalities to how the game progresses is your game play.

Some people have said that regardless of the sci-influenced civs any player with any civ can beat the game just as fast. This is just to test their assertion and to effectively have them back it up. If the challenge was who could do win this fastest with OCC it would be a different argument. This is about who is faster to Sci Vics period. Strategy and skill are the determinant. I doubt a true wide (10+ cities) empire can compete but OCC vs 2 cities vs 4 cities vs 6 cities etc. with multiple strategies is where the argument lies.

edit: also, inca and arabia were voted to be included in this challenge in another thread. terrain plays a factor for both.

Maybe this is exactly what should be tested. Playing OCC makes the game run at a faster pace, but I cannot easily discard the Krakatoa wonder on the southern shore. +5 Beakers is just too good to leave out. In addition to that, I am not sure that the starting loc is good for OCC. If you want a successful OCC you want lots of production (and that means hills/strategics) to finish key wonders and space parts ASAP. Here we have plenty of flood plain tiles, which although really nice for food production, provide no hammers before you build the Water Power Plant (+1 hammer on tiles next to rivers). We also don't have much in term of strategics, so switching to Workshop/Factory specialists later on will be a good idea.

So rather than commenting on the start, let's just see how the game will play through for everyone. The Incas aren't just terrace farms, you know... Besides, we were the ones who put them there for HammerRabbi, so not much reason to cry about it now

OCC is quicker to play for certain but it's such a specific strategy that i think it devalues the need for the conversation. i saw iggymnr trounce people's victory times by going 6-cities with order and factories and it made me think he is probably onto something larger about Sci Vics by saying it's really about late game tech timings and less about UA/UU/UB advantages. He did a good job of disproving some notion that Korea/Babs is overwhelmingly better than others at Sci, but it certainly isnt a true comparison without trying these saves.

Spot on

I think many people value OCC higher cause it is easier to manage. It also makes the game run faster, and by going for a fast GL (on lower difficulties) -> NC -> beelining Education and making a Rationalism jump ASAP nets you with Babs or Korea 100+ Beakers under T100 if properly executed. That sure looks like a great start... However, as the game unfolds, a sole city cannot best 4-6 well built cities stacked with specialists in the late game.

So in the end, it is easier to start off slow and pick up the pace later, than explode in the beginning and start lagging in the mid-to-late game. 6 cities with Libraries, and then Uni's, Schools and Labs filled in with specialists, along with the occasional Observatory, is a great deal better. I am keen to try it on Deity. It worked quite well on Emperor.

Here is another reason why G&K is required. One of the opponents is Ethiopia.

I've barely started and it's going like crap but that might have something to with lack of playing lately rather than anything else. It's also very weird playing without ruins but to point.
Is it just me or others having bugs in the map. Nothing major but there're few riverside tiles which don't function like one should. The picture shows the closest dysfunctional tile to the starting point.

The tile with a scout doesn't provide gold bonus and movementwise it acts like there is no river. Obviously this part materializes later when there's a city on the tile immediately to the left. Still very early in the game but I've found two other tiles like this.

G

hmm, strange. i'll check the original map and see why that is. at this point i cant change it without uploading 7 new saves but i'll see where the rivers are and why it might not say. i'll also go to the same tile in a game and look to see if it happens to me too.