Early diplomacy

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Jul 5, 2004
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Our current diplomacy system does not take into account the prehistoric era that we now have in C2C and needs to be revamped. Note this discussion is about the stuff done in the Diplomacy Screen not what is done with units. this is a brainstorming thread.


I think we need something like the following before the current diplomacy.

  • At start Indifferent Note: "Start as Minors" option would override this bit.
    • can't declare war
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • can pillage improvements without declaring war (see duffing),
    • can attack another nation's units in your or neutral territory without declaring war,
    • can't attack in their territory
  • At Warfare become Aware
    • can declare war,
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • can pillage improvements without declaring war
    • can attack another nation's units in your territory without declaring war,
    • attacking their unit in neutral territory may cause war.
    • attacking a unit inside their territory causes war
  • At Tribalism become Respect Territory unless at war, peace treaty becomes this
    • can declare war,
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • pillaging improvements may cause war
    • attacking a unit inside their territory or in neutral territory causes war,
    • can attack another nation's units in your territory without declaring war
  • At Sedentary Lifestyle become Respect Borders unless at war, peace treaty becomes this
    • current default situation
Duffing a time honoured rite where by the youth of one tribe steal something from another for boasting rights. Probably should be another mission not pillage and give a unit of :food: or :hammers: or maybe even a subdued animal.

Spoiler :
Old
  • Indifferent from start units can go anywhere but combat units can't enter cities until war is declared. Can't pillage inside another's cultural border.
  • Aware at Cultural Heritage default ie auto switch to this. Can't pillage inside another nation's cultural border. With Warfareallows declaration of war.
  • Respect Territory at Cultural Heritage combat units can't enter any worked tiles belonging to the nation (ie inside their cultural border). Boosts relationship slightly. Is ended with war declaration and goes obsolete at Writing. If a nation have this relationship when it gets writing it should be "prompted" about embassy and border negotiations.
  • Respect Boarders at Cultural Heritage current start position ie only hidden nationality and special units can enter another nation's border. Boosts relationship slightly. Is ended with war declaration and goes obsolete at Writing. If a nation have this relationship when it gets writing it should be "prompted" about embassy and border negotiations.
 
I personally think that Start as Minors works fine for now in terms of early diplomacy. Whether or not it is more realistic (who knows), gameplay-wise the idea of being at war until being told otherwise seems like the best idea to me, especially given how little power civs have in the Prehistoric Era.

I would suggest working on fleshing out the Indiginous Peoples, now that they've been on the SVN for four months now. But not until after the Long Freeze, that would be a feature addition.
 
I personally think that Start as Minors works fine for now in terms of early diplomacy. Whether or not it is more realistic (who knows), gameplay-wise the idea of being at war until being told otherwise seems like the best idea to me, especially given how little power civs have in the Prehistoric Era.

I would suggest working on fleshing out the Indiginous Peoples, now that they've been on the SVN for four months now. But not until after the Long Freeze, that would be a feature addition.

Start as Minors is just too unrealistic. Why should I be at war with someone that it will take 20 turns just to reach! Early tribes did not always fight because there was always somewhere else to go just as good. Even nomads and settled people did not always fight when the nomads walked by the settled peoples. The current game forces a 'war" style of play and I don't like that style. In fact I have discovered that I have a game limit whereby if I have over a certain number of units I stop the game as I loose interest. Crime means that reach the limit far too soon.

Indigenous Peoples, Barbarian Diplomacy and Diplomats are on the way. My priority for them is
  1. Extra specialists in the city screen. (then add doctors back in)
  2. Get the Statesman mod conversion tutorial written. The Great Statesman has missions that the diplomat units can do also. Add lawyer specialist.
  3. Get diplomat missions to other nations working.
  4. Barbarian diplomacy.
  5. Indigenous Peoples diplomacy and relationships working.
 
I like your Ideas here DH.

And I have to disagree with Hydro and ls612. Minor Civs should be an alternative way not the Only way.

What's the deal now? The Mod has been repeatedly showcased as More is More. Now it's getting to be More is My Way Only or else? What's up with that?

JosEPh
 
I like your Ideas here DH.

And I have to disagree with Hydro and ls612. Minor Civs should be an alternative way not the Only way.

What's the deal now? The Mod has been repeatedly showcased as More is More. Now it's getting to be More is My Way Only or else? What's up with that?

JosEPh

Of course they shouldn't be the only way. However, they should not be removed as an option. And you wouldn't be able to use both options at the same time, so that may throw a monkey wrench into the works. But it is always a matter of priorities, and I personally would like to see something come of Indigenous peoples sometime soon. It's DH's call what he wants to prioritize.
 
You can still start as minors I am just moving diplomacy back to Cultural Heritage but maybe it could be on of the early writing techs that currently don't do anything. That is why it is brain storming.
 
I agree with DH that Minor Civs as it is does not really fit with such a large era as prehistoric currently is. It was supposed to be a time at the start with no diplomacy that ends not too far ahead but with an extra era that is not the case.
So I think we need some further steps in diplomacy possibilities that get available at certain points in the tech tree.
 
I NEVER play with Start as Minor Civs. Mostly because AI's are pretty much completely ******** during this time, only valuing building units really since they feel at war with everyone, which they are. I also don't like to be extremely defensive out the gate. There's too much to do just to keep up with the techs as they go along rather than spend time building up forces with a completely undeveloped city, so its more about how much risk you're willing to take and no amount is the right answer really. You're either underprepared and shooting forward or overprepared and lagging. If an attack comes, you die if you've taken the first route, but if an attack doesn't come you'll probably die having taken the second route. So its not much better than flipping a coin and makes you want to immediately clear your continent so you don't have to worry about it, which actually prompts you to ADD to the steam roller effect right out the gate.

I'd think it would be better to have options like these. I'm loving the entire concept actually. And, DH, lately any suggestion is likely to be met by the 'lets wait on that' approach. In short, at the moment, if we're not finalizing, tweaking, or debugging concepts in the works we're not supposed to be working on it. I'm somewhat in agreement that this round should be our focus but I think if it plays into your plans as a whole then I don't see the problem with it, provided we still stay somewhat focused, as a group, on making this next release the most 'complete' version we've ever had, with the cleanest gameplay possible for a snapshot in time in our road to a fully developed C2C.

Along the lines of consideration regarding Early Warfare, I believe we should have a small selection of leaders that display a preference for the Vanilla BtS Incan rush strategy. (For those unaware of the Quecha Rush, the overall strategy is to prepare for nothing but war out the gate, build nothing but production enhancing and funnel it directly into building a powerful army of great numbers and just enough skill to make it through a few cities before it peters out (Quecha were particularly good at this since they had a very effective anti-archery value making them capable of still being meaningful when a large force of them reached your first opponent, when they'd likely already have archers by then. Continuing the strategy, you'd need to capture few cities along the way, destroy most, continue to march on and eliminate ALL (this was critical since you'd be left far behind in tech) threats on your continent, keep the best placed capitals, and back down into gradual recovery and growth out from the lack of research momentum and hopefully be able to colonize the whole continent without further fear of anything more than a few barbarian cities. This might make the early game more interesting to have an ai or two know how to perform such a rush strategy well and would get us to stay on our toes a bit even if we don't rely on the poor game option Start as Minor Civs.

Back on subject, the only problem I see with this proposal is it sounds as if you must negotiate with another civ to establish respect for each other's territory/border. I'd prefer it if it were the other way around. If I was, as a leader, to inform the other leader(s) that from now on they will be expected to show respect for MY territory/border and as a result, they would naturally raise the same expectation. My concern is that the other civs could reject the offer to change your status and this means you must negotiate to get closed borders rather than having it become the default once territorial boundaries can be expressed through improved language skills.

So in short, its a bit like putting the cart before the horse I think. Otherwise its spot on in its gradiation between Closed Borders and Territorial Apathy which I agree should be the way things begin.
 
OK what about
  • At start Indifferent
    • can't declare war
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • can pillage improvements without declaring war (see duffing),
    • can attack another nation's units in your or neutral territory without declaring war,
    • can't attack in their territory
  • At Warfare become Aware
    • can declare war,
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • can pillage improvements without declaring war
    • can attack another nation's units in your territory without declaring war,
    • attacking their unit in neutral territory may cause war.
    • attacking a unit inside their territory causes war
  • At Tribalism become Respect Territory unless at war, peace treaty becomes this
    • can declare war,
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • pillaging improvements may cause war
    • attacking a unit inside their territory or in neutral territory causes war,
    • can attack another nation's units in your territory without declaring war
  • At Sedentary Lifestyle become Respect Borders unless at war, peace treaty becomes this
    • current default situation
Duffing a time honoured rite where by the youth of one tribe steal something from another for boasting rights. Probably should be another mission not pillage and give a unit of :food: or :hammers: or maybe even a subdued animal.
 
I would think that the Trade tech should have something to do with diplomacy. Not only is it the tech at which your civ understands trade more fully, but it is also the tech that allows the Trade Language civic which finally allows you to communicate with other civs in some way not involving grunting (or speaking your own language at them very loudly and slowly), hand waving, and/or bashing them over the head.

For the "start as minor civs" game option it might even make sense to move the conversion from minor civs to regular civs from Writing to Trade. This would make it happen slightly earlier as Trade is a prereq for Writing. An alternative adjustment would be to have the actual change in civic to Trade Language (and all later civics in that category) move you from minor to regular.
 
These are good ideas! Can they be done?

@ls612, I don't think I said remove Start as Minor from being an option, did I?

JosEPh
 
OK what about
  • At start Indifferent
    • can't declare war
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • can pillage improvements without declaring war (see duffing),
    • can attack another nation's units in your or neutral territory without declaring war,
    • can't attack in their territory
  • At Warfare become Aware
    • can declare war,
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • can pillage improvements without declaring war
    • can attack another nation's units in your territory without declaring war,
    • attacking their unit in neutral territory may cause war.
    • attacking a unit inside their territory causes war
  • At Tribalism become Respect Territory unless at war, peace treaty becomes this
    • can declare war,
    • can't enter another nation's cities (diplomats and criminals exempt),
    • pillaging improvements may cause war
    • attacking a unit inside their territory or in neutral territory causes war,
    • can attack another nation's units in your territory without declaring war
  • At Sedentary Lifestyle become Respect Borders unless at war, peace treaty becomes this
    • current default situation
Duffing a time honoured rite where by the youth of one tribe steal something from another for boasting rights. Probably should be another mission not pillage and give a unit of :food: or :hammers: or maybe even a subdued animal.

I like this too. I've often thought start as minor civs was workable but felt too much was missed. Could we do something with adapting the Hidden Nationality mechanics to help represent the lack of recognizing friends/neutrals/enemies in the Prehistoric Era? Like all your units (except Diplomats) are Hidden Nationality up to a certain point?

Also, another thing that has kind of bothered me for a while is that starting as minors means you don't get an introduction screen when you meet a new civ. Instead, you meet them and are instantly at war with no intro. I think whatever mechanics we wind up with should preserve the intro screen.
 
I also think that pictograps (pictographic writing) should able to make case fire.
 
These are good ideas! Can they be done?

@ls612, I don't think I said remove Start as Minor from being an option, did I?

JosEPh

I'm beginning to like the ideas as well. And I didn't say that you were advocating removing start as minors. But this and the start as minors option would be incompatible, as they each do different things during the same time to the same thing.
 
I have no idea how we would go about implementing all this but thought we should think about and discuss it first. I have updated the first post.

Adding a bit more detail
  • At Trade
    • Opens up "Right of Passage", "Peace Treaty" and "Cease Fire" diplomacy options.
    • Can trade resources.
    • Can build diplomat and spy units.
    • Diplomats can request aid from Indigenous People and Barbarian cities.
  • At Writing
    • Opens up "Embassy", "Open Boarders" and "Trade Contact" diplomacy options.
    • Diplomats can go join mission with IP and Barbs.
    • Diplomats can do improve relations with other nations
 
<snip> But this and the start as minors option would be incompatible, as they each do different things during the same time to the same thing.

I don't follow this. You can't play with both at the same time can you?

You either start with the regular start or you start with SaMC. Either way this system should work. Or I'm missing a beginning key element here.

JosEPh
 
I don't follow this. You can't play with both at the same time can you?

You either start with the regular start or you start with SaMC. Either way this system should work. Or I'm missing a beginning key element here.

JosEPh

Unless DH makes this default behavior there would be a conflict. I was assuming that this would also be a game option, but I could be wrong there.
 
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