Conspiracy theories, scientific issues, life, the universe, and everything

Refreshing to agree with you here. All three of your statements regarding the apple would be true nevertheless. But if one were to ask someone who has an apple, how many apples do you have? One would be the only possible answer.

A man spends a day digging a hole. How long does it take 3 men to dig half a hole provided that the effort and time-based results remain constant?
What you are doing here is modelling. There is abstraction in it, a lot of it implicit: The men are equal, the effort of one man scales linearly to 3, there is nothing happening different when three dig than when one digs, half a hole takes half as long to dig as one hole. When all these implicit and explicit modelling assumptions are true, then your results are true, but there is no guarantee that the assumptions are true. The men might spend time chatting and not working, one might get a heart attack, the shallower hole might be considerably easier to dig, ...
So despite that the truth within the mathematical model is absolute, that does not mean that you get an absolute truth in reality. But good modelling can get very close to the truth and math is the right tool for the job.


Consciousness itself could be an interfacing node that limits its own understanding so as to be capable of processing its own limited framework (viewpoint). Nevertheless, at the root of consciousness itself, in any given form, may well be that capacity to synch into the god program to modify the behavior of reality. I doubt it would be easily processable from a point of view of logical dissemination, but via emotions guiding through the system intuitively?
So how do you think a hack of reality shows itself? Supernatural powers? There is a lot of money to be had for anyone demonstrating supernatural powers (e.g. 1 Million $ from James Randi).
 
I'm really glad that the world and the universe we are in did already exist before mankind invented mathematics. ;)

Maybe there's a reason that our observations (scientific methods) and the universe are compatible: we can only observe the one we are in. (so far at least).

It's the same when people point out how good we are adapted to earth and the world we live in: we simply evolved out of this environment.
 
This discussion is offtopic. [offtopic] [offtopic] [offtopic]

ROFL. I'll say! Although their really isn't much to say on the original topic anymore... so why not?
 
Nothing can be proven except within the confines of an accepted framework of reasoning, which usually includes some axioms (accepted statements of truth that are not going to be contended and which cannot be independently proven within the framework).

Prosaically I can prove '2+2=4' with basic number theory IF I accept Piano's axiom (more or less that each integer has a unique successor), but not without it.

In more real-world terms I cannot prove anything unless I accept at least the physical reality of the (apparent) universe. For example, a non-disprovable counter position is that the universe has no physical existence and we're all running in a cosmic simulation on some logical computing framework. At the meta-level (the program running on said cosmic meta-computer) ANY state change can be created (so for instance any data the 'programmer' sees fit can be returned to any conceivable detector running within the 'universe' [e.g. - seismic sensors] - maybe as an optimization the world doesn't exist at all below the level you dig to and directly perceive [why bother simulating it at an atomic level if you can just return appropriate results to surface interactions more cheaply] - of course that model can go much further and not bother 'creating' anything at all - just provide appropriate inputs to simulated conciousnesses [aka us]).

The above can all be restated without perceptually significant changes, replacing 'cosmic meta-computer' with 'God' also.


LOL... ok. If you are going to go to that extreme possibility then I suppose you are right... and yet not. If nothing else, I can prove at least one thing: I exist. I think therefore I am.

In addition, under the given set of rules of the "simulation" the proof is still valid until the rules change.

Lastly, if you are going to come at this from the computer simulation perspective, I am going to throw in there that a computer based on the current concept of computer could never be sentient. To say such a thing is to commit a logical fallacy (in the process of denying the existence of a subjective reality...but that is another discussion altogether...). Given that it is true at least one other truth can be taken for granted: My ability to think is not the result of a machine, therefore I am neither a machine nor the result of a machine.
 
LOL... ok. If you are going to go to that extreme possibility then I suppose you are right... and yet not. If nothing else, I can prove at least one thing: I exist. I think therefore I am.

In addition, under the given set of rules of the "simulation" the proof is still valid until the rules change.
That is important to keep in mind: Even if it is a simulation then it seems to have rules and unless we can proof that the rules can change it is best to assume that they don't.

Lastly, if you are going to come at this from the computer simulation perspective, I am going to throw in there that a computer based on the current concept of computer could never be sentient. To say such a thing is to commit a logical fallacy (in the process of denying the existence of a subjective reality...but that is another discussion altogether...). Given that it is true at least one other truth can be taken for granted: My ability to think is not the result of a machine, therefore I am neither a machine nor the result of a machine.
What are you other than a highly parallel computer? If no computer can be sentient, then neither can you (or I).
Do you really think or do you only believe that you think?
What do you actually mean with thinking?
What is sentience that you can clearly attribute it to yourself but deny it to any machine?
 
What you are doing here is modelling. There is abstraction in it, a lot of it implicit: The men are equal, the effort of one man scales linearly to 3, there is nothing happening different when three dig than when one digs, half a hole takes half as long to dig as one hole. When all these implicit and explicit modelling assumptions are true, then your results are true, but there is no guarantee that the assumptions are true. The men might spend time chatting and not working, one might get a heart attack, the shallower hole might be considerably easier to dig, ...
So despite that the truth within the mathematical model is absolute, that does not mean that you get an absolute truth in reality. But good modelling can get very close to the truth and math is the right tool for the job.
Good answer, but incorrect. The correct answer is:
There's no such thing as half a hole.

So how do you think a hack of reality shows itself? Supernatural powers? There is a lot of money to be had for anyone demonstrating supernatural powers (e.g. 1 Million $ from James Randi).
I'm aware of that reward being offered. I'd love to say yes here. But usually when reality is tweaked by these kinds of hacks, its completely improvable because it must blend with the rest of the system in such a way that nothing appears to have been done. It cannot violate core 'rules' so to speak so usually just manifests as unusual luck. At least what I see Humans being capable of tends to stay in this realm where no scientific paradox exists and only chaos and randomness can be manipulated.

I believe there could be beings with greater power but once a core 'rule' is altered, it does so for the whole timestream and is completely imperceptible to any being within the system as it will adjust all memories to suit the new rules as well. The past literally changes if this takes place so all references to the new 'rules' are understood to be the way things are and no memory exists of the way things were before the tweak. Therefore no proof can be possible as nothing can track the change.

Even for those with such ability, I doubt its employed much. Far better and less messy to tweak the results of chaos, leading to an abundance of irony taking place all around us.

My ability to think is not the result of a machine, therefore I am neither a machine nor the result of a machine.
Neuroscience is beginning to show that this may well be a stretch to maintain as a viewpoint. The brain is a very complex biologically driven computing device, and one we're beginning to understand. Our belief in a sentience beyond the mind/body is deep in our society but MAY be completely inaccurate. However, most of us DO almost universally sense a connection to something greater, something infinite within us and the source of WILL, outside of it being based on basal 'best evaluated action' determinations, is still somewhat a mystery. So I'd like to think you're right but I often wonder.
 
So how do you think a hack of reality shows itself? Supernatural powers? There is a lot of money to be had for anyone demonstrating supernatural powers (e.g. 1 Million $ from James Randi).

Well, in the meta-universe-computer-runs-emulation-of-our-universe model there is a variant wherein the consciousness of one or more individuals (you CAN be special ;)) is actually running somewhere up the meta-hierarchy, but deriving its sensory feed from a down-hierarchy universe. Such an entity could plausibly then hack its own subjective reality, even if it wasn't the one it was ACTUALLY running in (but it would have no way to tell that, apart from inference from its ability to hack the embedded reality, which is rather a circular argument)

BTW - to ground this back in C2C for a moment - if we do add some future era religions this should absolutely be one. The new theology of Koshlingism!
 
BTW - to ground this back in C2C for a moment - if we do add some future era religions this should absolutely be one. The new theology of Koshlingism!

Well, if L. Ron Hubbard did it, so can you.

I approve, and will be eagerly awaiting at the local bookstore to learn how to tap into my inner cosmic-meta-computer.
 
ROFL! :lol: Now that would be QUITE the religion.
 
'Science!' has developed into a religion. The priests are called 'scientists'... and the worshipers have 'faith' that everything they say is correct. (Ignoring the next 'scientist' or scientist to disprove them and get more votes of faith). The worshipers tend to go on dogmatic rants denounce all other religions... or different sects of the Science! religion.

That said Science! is not the good old proven tool of the scientific method. Science! is a fan of rigging things to their view point.

As for the Hollow Earth, your doing it wrong.

I wouldn't want to run the math... but I'm pretty sure you can make a naturally occuring hollow Earth work. Its just you'd have make the inner shell of crazy dense materials... which due to having the elements making it up into the 160s for the low number ones. This hollow planet has a disturbing radioactic core of ultradenseness. That kind that means volcanic activity is a result of the mantle being superheated by the radiation of said hollow core.

Meaning anything that can live in that core is energy based life or hunting via gravity well manipulation and that any of them contact the surface its going to be ugly... the fine level of gravity manipulation required to not explode from the change of enviroments is insane... so its going to take absurd amounts of time not to die of the 'bends' and got nuclear. Actually that would work with explaining volcanic activity... and what gods are on that planet.

Also the crust and mantel are just random debrie that got sucked in and squished by the radioactive core. Thus surface life is the moss growing on the reactor.
 
What are you other than a highly parallel computer? If no computer can be sentient, then neither can you (or I).
Do you really think or do you only believe that you think?
What do you actually mean with thinking?
What is sentience that you can clearly attribute it to yourself but deny it to any machine?

The one thing I know for certain is that I am NOT a parallel computer. This is not a reaction or objection. It is simply a fact. No sentient entity is (or anything alive in my opinion). This is the reduction of the mind to a machine and it is completely groundless. (I am not trying to be argumentative here... just trying to explain.)

To give a specific example: no matter how you arrange atoms and energy, there is no purely mechanistic principle that can account for (or give rise to) the experience of red. "Pure" red has a specific wavelength. But while a wavelength and a certain "configuration" of atoms in my mind may cause the experience of red, there is nothing inherent about that configuration or wavelength (alone) that can account for the actual experience. We can't even prove that everyone sees the same color (even those who have the exact same genes and perfect biological equipment). Maybe what I experience as red is equivalent to your experience of blue. We just happen to agree that it is red because that is what we have been taught to call it from the first time we noticed it in the book someone read to us as a child.

Meaning itself is purely subjective. A computer has nothing within its makeup or machinery that gives it the ability or capacity to contemplate the meaning of anything. It is an object with no capacity for subjective experience (unless we were to somehow imbue it with subjective properties... make it alive per se). THAT is where science fails to explain existence in its entirety. Science is only half an answer (as it currently exists).

The attempt by scientists to reduce thought, emotions, and consciousness to a purely mechanistic processes is called reductionism and it is a fallacy. It is not only to say that the whole is more than the sum of its parts, it is also to say that parts can create an existence which has nothing in common with those parts.

Subjectivity cannot be logically reduced to objectivity. Thomas Hobbes tried to do this indirectly in his book Leviathan (I think that was the book anyway...). His idea (simplified and shortened) was that reality has too many variables to keep track of. The mind is so complex that it cannot understand itself. Therefore, it creates a shortcut called "subjectivity," an illusion that represents and "simplifies" the complexity. This argument (and others like it) have been used by physicalists (and materialists) for centuries.

The problem with this argument is that it is self-contradictory. An illusion is by definition subjective. You cannot say that subjectivity doesn't exist by calling it a subjective phenomena.

Notice that with every statement I have always used a qualifier like "purely" or "completely" or "alone" or "by itself." Going back to the red example... ULTIMATELY... that configuration and/or wavelength IS responsible for the experience of red. But that is only half the story. Some other aspect of reality exists that works in tandem with the physical to give rise to the experiential, something that has a subjective nature. I am not saying that it has to be "spiritual." It could be matter itself for all we know. But if you are going to say that then you must also say that matter has subjective properties which we cannot (currently) directly detect or make scientific sense of. This is currently contradictory to the definition of matter (which is anything that takes up space... a measureable, objective, quantity).

Even if you believe we are all part of some grand computer simulation... a part of the simulation must have a subjective nature in order to give rise to the subjectivity that is experienced.
 
I wouldn't want to run the math... but I'm pretty sure you can make a naturally occuring hollow Earth work. Its just you'd have make the inner shell of crazy dense materials... which due to having the elements making it up into the 160s for the low number ones. This hollow planet has a disturbing radioactic core of ultradenseness. That kind that means volcanic activity is a result of the mantle being superheated by the radiation of said hollow core.

Wow... I hope you are just being a troll...

Problems (and these are just a few of many):
  1. You would then have to explain why P waves can pass through the earth when they cannot pass through gases and empty space.
  2. You would have to explain how such radiation (or whatever else in your theory) causes earthquakes, but only in specific patterns across Earth's surface.
  3. You would have to explain why this disturbing radioactive core doesn't produce volcanoes across the earth's surface uniformly instead of where they actually do occur: along a specific type of (proposed)* plate boundary and underneath mountain ranges that are being folded. (The first half of this objection alone is such a glaring problem that it is hard to take you seriously).
  4. You would have to explain why radioactive melting produces two distinctively different types of magma which just happen to coincide with the two different locations mentioned in the previous problem.
  5. You would have to explain why in this regular radiation, the magnetic orientation of iron atoms on the ocean floor just happens to swap directions (to the south magnetic pole) every dozen or so miles in a somewhat symmetrical pattern (with the center of symmetry being oriented on the crack in the ocean crust that geologists identify as a divergent plate boundary).

*included to give doubters the benefit of the doubt.

Keep in mind that I also believe that science has its flaws (I even agree that it has become a religion of sorts to some)... but so does such paranoid and unfounded dogmatic accusations against all scientists.

Don't become guilty of the same thing they are guilty of from the other side... going on a dogmatic rant denouncing science. Most of those scheming scientists are simply trying to explain observations such as the following:

Earthquake distribution (with volcanic and sub-oceanic magma vent distribution being nearly identical):
38167327.gif


Magnetic striping (reversal of iron polarity)
Stripes.gif
 
@primem0ver

Maybe you could answer this since I always wondered. Since pole reveals are recoded in mid-Atlantic ridges this would concluded that we not only had one but man pole reversals. In the paranormal community they believe that pole reveals mean the end of the world. However since it has happened many times this cannot be true. So I ask then what exactly happens during a pole reversal? Just our compasses go the other way? How fast is the reveal? Will it be instant or take years to do? When is the next one? And what happens to all the animals who rely upon the magnetic field for navigation? Thanks in advance.
 
I loved how this thread has evolved from a gameplay and design worry, to theories about the proper conductation of science, to epistimology and the nature of existence itself.

The internet at work, truly.
 
ROFL! Another great laugh! :lol: I agree.

Still... like I said earlier, there isn't much to say about the original topic anymore since I had my question answered. So why not? (Though we probably should re-title the thread... to something along the lines of like "GeoRealism map issues, scientific issues, and other issues of metaphysical importance"
 
@primem0ver

Maybe you could answer this since I always wondered. Since pole reveals are recoded in mid-Atlantic ridges this would concluded that we not only had one but man pole reversals. In the paranormal community they believe that pole reveals mean the end of the world. However since it has happened many times this cannot be true. So I ask then what exactly happens during a pole reversal? Just our compasses go the other way? How fast is the reveal? Will it be instant or take years to do? When is the next one? And what happens to all the animals who rely upon the magnetic field for navigation? Thanks in advance.

A good general overview of pole reversal and the historical record of such reversals exists in this wikipedia article. It does not happen instantaneously or overnight. A reversal takes a couple thousand years. It is not entirely predictable given current understanding of the phenomena (and I doubt it would be even if we did since fluid flow within the outer core is probably fairly complex). I assume the animals will have to adapt... they have before. Reversal has never been believed by to be the cause of mass extinctions since there is no real evidence.... so yes... the "end of the world" view is probably wrong.

The only thing that could pose a real problem is if the core stopped flowing period. That could cause mass extinction since our magnetic field partially protects us from some rather harmful types of radiation: cosmic, gamma, and x-rays.
 
A couple interesting links:
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tierra_hueca/esp_tierra_hueca_9.htm
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tierra_hueca/esp_tierra_hueca_8a.htm
These are some of the more solid concepts in a field of mostly (admittedly) rubbish. I'm interested in what the geophysicists here have to counter with. A number of years ago I found some of this compelling enough to accept the 'possibility' of Hollow Earth (not go so far as to jump off the rails in actual belief but far enough to create equal doubt in the currently accepted model.)
 
A good general overview of pole reversal and the historical record of such reversals exists in this wikipedia article. It does not happen instantaneously or overnight. A reversal takes a couple thousand years. It is not entirely predictable given current understanding of the phenomena (and I doubt it would be even if we did since fluid flow within the outer core is probably fairly complex). I assume the animals will have to adapt... they have before. Reversal has never been believed by to be the cause of mass extinctions since there is no real evidence.... so yes... the "end of the world" view is probably wrong.

The only thing that could pose a real problem is if the core stopped flowing period. That could cause mass extinction since our magnetic field partially protects us from some rather harmful types of radiation: cosmic, gamma, and x-rays.

Thanks for the reply. And yeah I am familiar with mutation rate vs death in living species. Having even a lowered magnetic field would be very bad.
 
Actually, I am serious about what I said... I simply was refering to how it could work, in a broader sense. Like in game terms. A bit of world building if you will.

If I wanted to claim it could work on this Earth... I would gibber on and on about exotic properties of super heavy elements and their constant decay and reformation into different super heavy elements within a mostly closed system. Possibly about super heavy elements and massive amounts of random exotic radiation types and crystaline structures giving a false readings where you mentioned them.

That or radiation based gods altering the results just to screw with you... I'm not sure you bothered to read that far.
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Also, just to spite you. I can make red detectable by purely mechanical means. 'Red' is just a certain spectrum of frequencies the electromagnetic spetrum. All you would need to do is make a material that expands when exposed to the electromagnetic waves catagorised under 'red'. Take that material and stick it inside a pressure sensor.

Once inside said pressure sensor, when exposed to 'red' frequency radiation. The mechanical sensor for red is activated this way. You can event make different levels of expansion be different shades of red.

So yes... 'red' can be proven with entirely mechanical means. All you have to do is properly define what 'red' is in the first place. That or the some random bit of math that is defined as 'red' or whatever within context of the system.
 
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