SVN588, need feedback!

45°38'N-13°47'E;11999010 said:
I personally do like FB, but that's a matter of opinion. So I think the best course of action is to make FB an option again. :)



I've been asking this question myself. Right now, I'd say we can fix problems we encounter and introduce some improvement (Jungle Camps, speed of production and so on). In a second stage, we can improve the game by splitting the tech tree for religions for example and reworking civics. Before we begin this second part, I'd prefer to release a definitive AND2.1 so that people don't have to use SVN (that's because many people still don't know or don't want to use SVN). Then we can start working on AND2.2 which will include major changes like civics. Where are we going from there? I don't know. But I frankly don't like very much the idea of an ever changing mod like C2C. At a certain point development must come to an end, IMO.


Sounds sensible to me. No AND doesn't need to be an ever ongoing metamorphosis which unfortunately C2C seems to be at this time and place.

@Arkatakor,
Suggestions and feedback are always welcome and appreciated.

JosEPh :)
 
@Arkatakor,
Suggestions and feedback are always welcome and appreciated.

JosEPh :)
Thank you - I have quite a list accumulated as I have had the liberty to be able to play AND quite extensively over the past few months. I will share my modifications and explain how they have improved my game experience in the next week or so :) They include methods to partially delay the anti climax scourge that this game faces as well as address the "too many buildings to build" issue as well as a lot more.

In c2c its much much easier to get happy/healthy especially early on. In ROM AND if you don't get a religion you basically will struggle to get past pop 6 or something (unless you get some good resources).
Well I find thats part of the challenge for early game expansion which is also why religion is so important early game. Its all about opportunity cost; do I research that costly religion and compromise my early growth or do I focus on growth first and research religion later? This isn't c2c and compared to Vanilla BTS, there are more happy resources in AND than the latter (coffee / hemp / tea / tobacco). And as if that was not enough, the brewery and ceremonial altar are both available regardless of resources / religion.

That said however, I find it curious that gold / silver / gems do not provide + 1 happiness. They did so in vannila BTS (after all according to the description of gold in civ, people have always been fascinated by things that shine and glitter!). If many people still feel its hard to have happiness in the early game, I would propose as an interim solution to re-instate the + 1 happiness for all the jewelry bonuses.
 
Some of the Civics are a huge source of unhappiness. So Much so that if you use too many that give unhappiness the only way to get equilibrium back is to revert back to a lesser Civic.

@Arkatakor,
How do you feel about the coinage Civic consuming all Gold and Silver? I've not used it for some time. I know the problem with leaving it has been solved by 45*38'N. But I'm still chafing over it. It was part of the (to me) extremely radical effort to reduce gold thru out the Mod.

One building that really bugs me at the moment is the carriage workshop. I can't see why it needs +1 :yuck:.

And the Chariot in this mod is still sadly lacking. It only has 1 purpose, and a short lived one at that, to stop the Axe rush. The Chariot was a feared unit in it's time.

One question, do you still get random CTDs? And if you do what did you do to get past them?

JosEPh
 
One building that really bugs me at the moment is the carriage workshop. I can't see why it needs +1 :yuck:.
Agreed.

And the Chariot in this mod is still sadly lacking. It only has 1 purpose, and a short lived one at that, to stop the Axe rush. The Chariot was a feared unit in it's time.
One of the things I did was to reduce the research points required to tech this. Also I increased the horse resource spawn rate. Last but not least: I removed all the terrain attack penalties for all the mounted units. While terrain attack penalties was realistic, it was not part of the original game design and for very good reason. I remember when I still had the penalties for mounted units active, I found myself almost never building early mounted units because forests are everywhere early game. This made axemen / spearmen much more appealing as they had no terrain attack penalties. So my suggestion would be to simply remove all the terrain attack penalties for the mounted units - it was part of the original game design and keeping it as such has worked great for me. At that point the chariot is not underpowered at all, quite on the contrary, because combined with the wheelright (which gives chariot production bonuses) you can spam them in huge waves. In fact I found myself nerfing the wheelrights production bonus for chariots down to 25% (from 50%).

One question, do you still get random CTDs? And if you do what did you do to get past them?
Well the thing is, I am still playing AND 1.75C as it was the most stable version and, most importantly, did not have that dreaded enforced fixed borders. I would occasionally get CTD's but they were video memory related (scrolling too fast in world builder). I am estimating that I have played about 30 games in the last few months (on epic). Out of those I have encountered 2 games with permanent freezes (game turn would not end). However since its an old version, its pointless uploading the game saves here. If the latest version of AND gets the enforced fixed borders removed and made optional once more, I would be happy to try the latest version and share my findings :)

How do you feel about the coinage Civic consuming all Gold and Silver? I've not used it for some time. I know the problem with leaving it has been solved by 45*38'N. But I'm still chafing over it. It was part of the (to me) extremely radical effort to reduce gold thru out the Mod.
Coinage consuming all Gold and Silver resources seems radical (and unrealistic) in my opinion. If early game gold is a concern, my suggestion would be to look no further than the Jewelry building. This overpowered building gives +2 :commerce: for the gold, silver and gem bonuses granting a total possible of +6 :commerce:. As if this was not enough it also gives +10 % :gold: and 25% trade route yield. This does not only make the building OP but also makes the ability to have a strong early economy heavily dependent on having either gold, silver or gems. My suggestion would be to have the trade route yield for the jewelry reduced to 15% (down from 25%) and have the +10 % :gold: either reduced to +5% :gold: or removed entirely. These are just my thoughts - perhaps others have better suggestions on nerfing this building?
 
One building that really bugs me at the moment is the carriage workshop. I can't see why it needs +1 .


If you all agree, we can remove the :yuck:, that's no problem with me.

One of the things I did was to reduce the research points required to tech this.

I would strongly advise not to touch tech costs. And I surely won't do it for AND2 for any tech. Tech costs were balanced carefully and they work pretty well for me (and I suppose for other players too).

So my suggestion would be to simply remove all the terrain attack penalties for the mounted units - it was part of the original game design and keeping it as such has worked great for me.

I suppose we can reduce attack penalties but I wouldn't remove them completely, both for the sake of reality and for that of gameplay.

Well the thing is, I am still playing AND 1.75C as it was the most stable version and, most importantly, did not have that dreaded enforced fixed borders. I would occasionally get CTD's but they were video memory related (scrolling too fast in world builder). I am estimating that I have played about 30 games in the last few months (on epic). Out of those I have encountered 2 games with permanent freezes (game turn would not end). However since its an old version, its pointless uploading the game saves here. If the latest version of AND gets the enforced fixed borders removed and made optional once more, I would be happy to try the latest version and share my findings :)

I'll work on this soon but as for the other advices, I'd say we don't change anything until we all speak and play with the same version of the game. That's because lot of things were changed from version 1.75C to AND2 and nobody knows exactly what has been changed; so I won't modify anything that has been reported as a problem in AND2. Problems or suggestions regarding earlier versions might or might not still prove true for AND2 but I strongly suggest not to address them until they are proven in AND2 too.

Coinage consuming all Gold and Silver resources seems radical (and unrealistic) in my opinion. If early game gold is a concern, my suggestion would be to look no further than the Jewelry building. This overpowered building gives +2 :commerce: for the gold, silver and gem bonuses granting a total possible of +6 :commerce:. As if this was not enough it also gives +10 % :gold: and 25% trade route yield. This does not only make the building OP but also makes the ability to have a strong early economy heavily dependent on having either gold, silver or gems. My suggestion would be to have the trade route yield for the jewelry reduced to 15% (down from 25%) and have the +10 % :gold: either reduced to +5% :gold: or removed entirely. These are just my thoughts - perhaps others have better suggestions on nerfing this building?

Jewelry also relies on pearls and possibly something else IIRC; but it's never been a problem to me and didn't look overpowered. Again, maybe something has changed from 1.75C to AND2. And since consuming gold and silver is also related to coinage civic, I would delay this aspect of the game until we are really deep working on new civics.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;12003177 said:
If you all agree, we can remove the :yuck:, that's no problem with me.
Great.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12003177 said:
I would strongly advise not to touch tech costs. And I surely won't do it for AND2 for any tech. Tech costs were balanced carefully and they work pretty well for me (and I suppose for other players too).
Your choice of words "surely won't" makes it seem like you are not open to suggestions or even discussing them. I suggest you read a post of mine that I made last year, afforess' response to that post as well as the general feedback in that thread. I have made more tech modifications since that post, specifically targeting middle ages techs. Up until I made them it was too easy to skip the middle aged era units (heavy swordsman, mailed knights) and simply beeline matchlock for early arquebuisers. In fact even after I made them I still find myself pursuing this strategy if I am doing exceptionally well.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12003177 said:
I suppose we can reduce attack penalties but I wouldn't remove them completely, both for the sake of reality and for that of gameplay.
Then you will continue to have the early mounted unit problem ;)
 
Your choice of words "surely won't" makes it seem like you are not open to suggestions or even discussing them.

No, it's not like this. I'm open to suggestions and many of your suggestions are perfectly fine with me (traits modification, for example, as well as the one I've just accepted about the carriage workshop you were discussing with Joseph). BUT there are reasons for me not wanting to touch techs, and I've explained it. They were already balanced between each other. If that's not enough, I can add that if you will try AND2 you will see that now it's not so easy to "skip" medieval units as you said. Maybe that was possible in 1.75C an in the original AND2. Now it's not like that anymore. And that's because I've modified some global research and production parameters, without touching tech costs.
Giving suggestions about AND2 without even having tried it doesn't sound very sensible to me.

Before expecting suggestions to be accepted "as they are", I would expect someone to at least try AND2: it's really different from 1.75C. Then we can discuss as long as you want. :)

Edit: by the way I also agree in increasing Anarchy Mission cost (I've done it myself for a previous version, but I forgot to re-import this change after I've switched to AND2); also increasing horse occurance is fine with me; I would also increase salt occurance which looks very rare, but this could depend on mapscript, couldn't it?
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;12003402 said:
No, it's not like this. I'm open to suggestions and many of your suggestions are perfectly fine with me (traits modification, for example, as well as the one I've just accepted about the carriage workshop you were discussing with Joseph). BUT there are reasons for me not wanting to touch techs, and I've explained it. They were already balanced between each other. If that's not enough, I can add that if you will try AND2 you will see that now it's not so easy to "skip" medieval units as you said. Maybe that was possible in 1.75C an in the original AND2. Now it's not like that anymore. And that's because I've modified some global research and production parameters, without touching tech costs.
Giving suggestions about AND2 without even having tried it doesn't sound very sensible to me.
Thanks for clarifying that. I was not aware that there were so many tech modifications since my suggestion. You are right that I need to try the latest version so that we are on the same page :)

45°38'N-13°47'E;12003402 said:
Before expecting suggestions to be accepted "as they are", I would expect someone to at least try AND2: it's really different from 1.75C. Then we can discuss as long as you want. :)
Sounds like a plan to me - once you release a version making fixed borders optional again I will be happy to try it at some point.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12003402 said:
Edit: by the way I also agree in increasing Anarchy Mission cost (I've done it myself for a previous version, but I forgot to re-import this change after I've switched to AND2); also increasing horse occurance is fine with me; I would also increase salt occurance which looks very rare, but this could depend on mapscript, couldn't it?
I have taken it a step further to make salt spwanable on other terrains as it continued to be too rare. As for anarchy, I have radically increased the mission cost even since that post. For it to even be viable you have to have at least a 5 to 10% espionage slider and virtually all your espionage points focused on a civ. Personally I am debating whether it should even be in the game as its too OP. I have also significantly increased the change civics espionage cost since civs never knew to stop wars due to war weariness and all I had to do to win the game was switch the civics of high warmongering civs while they were at war. This was more effective than nuking each and every one of their cities as the population decreased to less than 50%. Needless to say those civs would never recover after that.
 
@Arkatakor: By the way, speaking of mounted units: I was planning to remove the free commando promotion for mounted units as it's way too overpowered and I've seen a lot of people complaining about it. What do you think about it? I've suggested that if this is too radical, to compensate we could lower the level of the commando promotion from a 4th or 5th level promotion to a 3rd level promotion.
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;12003656 said:
@Arkatakor: By the way, speaking of mounted units: I was planning to remove the free commando promotion for mounted units as it's way too overpowered and I've seen a lot of people complaining about it. What do you think about it? I've suggested that if this is too radical, to compensate we could lower the level of the commando promotion from a 4th or 5th level promotion to a 3rd level promotion.
I have not come a across a single person on this forum who supported the free commando promotion for mounted units. It was truly gamebreaking. I am not sure about reducing the level required for commando promotion; personally I would not support it, at least not beyond a single level. However it would be good to hear feedback from the greater community on this one.

On a different note, one thing I have noticed was that the commando promotion was somehow no longer available to tracked units in the transhuman era. In the XML's they are referred to as:

UNITCLASS_STEALTH_ARMOR
UNITCLASS_FUTURE_ARMOR
UNITCLASS_PLASMA_ARMOR

Maybe this has since been fixed but last I checked, even in 1.76, I was unable to promote to commando for the aforementioned units. I could however do so with their predecessors (modern armor, tank, light tank). Perhaps this could be looked at?
 
Some of the last changes Afforess did was a partial merge of the C2C .DLL. I do not think it was totally finished. But I do know that there have been No Commando complaints from C2C players. I'll try to find the equivalent areas in both mods to look at the differences, if there are any.

JosEPh
 
I was unable to promote to commando for the aforementioned units. I could however do so with their predecessors (modern armor, tank, light tank). Perhaps this could be looked at?

I'll have a look. :)
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;12006566 said:
I'll have a look. :)
Thanks :) EDIT: I remember looking at this in the XML files but I could not find anything myself that looked suspicious.

I have been looking through this thread and figured I could give some feedback on some of the issues discussed:

What really needs adjustment is the time it takes to build anything. Build times are too long for Epic and Normal.
One thing that i've done was to increase the treadmill crane a 20% production bonus (up from 15%), construction firm 30% (up from 20%) and particularly give church / free church extra production bonsus (I upped them by 5% each). Those two civics as well as the treadmill crane become available at a particular point in the game (middle ages) where there are simply too many buildings to build in too short a time (I play on epic).

Resources: Horse, and Copper seem too rare. Hemp and Tobacco too much.
Agreed.

Jungle Camps: Someone gutted the original JCs in this Mod. They are very weak and do not give the AI a viable choice against Chopping all Jungle.
Could not agree more.

Too Much early :yuck: imo, and with the added unhealthiness given to Jungles makes Jungle starts very hard on the AI and Player. Jungles should comprise about 50% of the mid map (equatorial zone). And because of the way Jungles are used I would bet that most players do not use Tropical vs Temperate for Map set ups.
Well part of the problem is that the problem with +:health: buildings in AND is that they have maintenance costs attributed to them. Minus a few initial buildings I usually put a lot of my cities on autobuild and the AI governor avoids producing :health: buildings like the plague. Questionably, the AI governor does not even produce healers hut or doctors office even though they have not maintenance costs attributed them. What I have done a few months back was to partially remove the maintenance costs for the :health: buildings but increase their production costs by up to 50%. Don't know how others would feel about this alternative?

On a different note, I have thought about the issue behind early unhappiness in the game; I am not sure how the early civics in AND 2.0 are, but I had to remove the exceeding unhappyness penalties for non captial cities as well as the no unhappiness in the capital city that had recently been introduced for early government civics. I may have increased the maintenance costs number of cities and distance from capital to compensate but i dont remember. Either way under my configuration the maintenance costs by themselves restrict early expansion to max 3-4 cities until one has monarchy.

45°38'N-13°47'E;12006720 said:
@Arkatakor: No Fixed borders option is available again; I don't know though if it's working now. There is an option to play without FB and it should work, but I haven't tested it yet. :)
Okies great! I will try and get to testing a game at some point this weekend.
 
Thanks :) EDIT: I remember looking at this in the XML files but I could not find anything myself that looked suspicious.

I have been looking through this thread and figured I could give some feedback on some of the issues discussed:

One thing that i've done was to increase the treadmill crane a 20% production bonus (up from 15%), construction firm 30% (up from 20%) and particularly give church / free church extra production bonsus (I upped them by 5% each). Those two civics as well as the treadmill crane become available at a particular point in the game (middle ages) where there are simply too many buildings to build in too short a time (I play on epic).

Getting Hammers in the early game is hard. That was one of the means Afforess and os79 used to restrict growth and adjust build times. I don't really like it. Too restrictive imho.


Well part of the problem is with +:health: buildings in AND is that they have maintenance costs attributed to them. Minus a few initial buildings I usually put a lot of my cities on autobuild and the AI governor avoids producing :health: buildings like the plague. Questionably, the AI governor does not even produce healers hut or doctors office even though they have not maintenance costs attributed them. What I have done a few months back was to partially remove the maintenance costs for the :health: buildings but increase their production costs by up to 50%. Don't know how others would feel about this alternative?

I'll be taking a look before I give feedback.


On a different note, I have thought about the issue behind early unhappiness in the game; I am not sure how the early civics in AND 2.0 are, but I had to remove the exceeding unhappyness penalties for non captial cities as well as the no unhappiness in the capital city that had recently been introduced for early government civics.

I recently reduced the Unhappiness from War Weariness on 3 of the Gov't Civics. But there is a lot of unhappy tacked onto many others.

I may have increased the maintenance costs number of cities and distance from capital to compensate but i dont remember. Either way under my configuration the maintenance costs by themselves restrict early expansion to max 3-4 cities until one has monarchy.

Not sure if this is needed.

One thing I do not want is for Expansionist leaders and Players to be forced into holding back on City Building, even early game. I've fought both Afforess and the C2C Team over this issue before. It takes away from the choices the player and AI should have the option to do, Turtle down or Expand or somewhere in the middle.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One word of Warning; Barb World Option does have a Bug. If the Barb AI attacks an AI Player that has a newly built city, conquers that city and then razes it, it will give a CTD. You can get past it but it takes a bit of work in that you have to clear the Log files replay the turn and get the CTD to reproduce. Then check the Python error logs and find the last line that reads like this example:

PY:Player 50 Civilization Barbarian State Unit Axeman was killed by Player 11
PY:Player 11 Civilization Kingdom of Rome Unit Explorer was killed by Player 50
PY:Player 4 Civilization Kingdom of Germany Unit Settler was killed by Player 50
PY:City Acquired Event: Duisburg
PY:City Razed Event: Duisburg

Especially the last 2 lines.

You will need to go into World Builder, Find that City and Delete the attacking barb units. Return to the game and you should be able to continue.

Looking for a Python expert to help fix this.

JosEPh
 
45°38'N-13°47'E;12006720 said:
@Arkatakor: No Fixed borders option is available again; I don't know though if it's working now. There is an option to play without FB and it should work, but I haven't tested it yet. :)
Just updated to the latest version via svn, compiled the DLL and tested it - I could not find the fixed border option in the game menu. Did you say you could see it?
 
Why did you need to compile the DLL? You should not have to at all.

If you've made a New DLL there's no guarantee the Mod will work as designed.

JosEPh
 
Why did you need to compile the DLL? You should not have to at all.

If you've made a New DLL there's no guarantee the Mod will work as designed.

JosEPh
Yeah I was running from the wrong directory. I have now rectified that and am running the latest version (no I did not compile it, its directly from SVN). The No Fixed Borders option is available in that.

I ran a test with that option checked, turned off realistic culture spread, created a city adjacent to an opponents capital, settled 20 artists in it and unfortunately their borders refused to recede. It could be that they only recede until a certain point. By right his cities should have been entirely engulfed by my territory.

I have attached a save for your perusal.
 

Attachments

Can not load your savegame.

You've added an extra folder that is not recognized: Mods\romDev\Rise of Mankind - A New dawn.

Get rid of the romDev and I can look at it.

JosEPh
 
Yeah I was running from the wrong directory. I have now rectified that and am running the latest version (no I did not compile it, its directly from SVN). The No Fixed Borders option is available in that.

I ran a test with that option checked, turned off realistic culture spread, created a city adjacent to an opponents capital, settled 20 artists in it and unfortunately their borders refused to recede. It could be that they only recede until a certain point. By right his cities should have been entirely engulfed by my territory.

I have attached a save for your perusal.

I've tried a quick test and it looks like it works. I've started a game, I've left the capital of my rival to expand its cultural border a little. Then with WB I've settled another city next to their capital and I've given that city 100000 culture. Voila, they're now surrounded by my culture, remaining with only 8 squares around their capital. So it definetly works. I don't know if you want your borders to move inside the 8 squares around the city but if that's your intention I think FB has nothing to do with it (although I'm not sure where to look for this problem).

Edit: about the save, the same goes for me, I can't load it.
 
Back
Top Bottom