Biggest complaint

Ok... maybe it is just me but I stopped reading about half way through the second page of this argument. I really didin't get the whole culture thing since I am fairly new to the game. I don't want to step on toes but personally I think the whole concept is a bit too constraining. Aren't we rewriting history? Why do I have to have a certain set of resources in order to be a specific culture? It is true that certain cultures in our history had a rather specific flavor (literally). But while that flavor may have been influenced by specific resources (such as rice in Asia) that doesn't mean all the details of a culture are the result of that resource.

As long as the general components for the type of buildings developed by a culture exist, there is no need to be picky. Who cares if it is apples or pomegranates? Bronze or brass? The Newton mythology would still exist either way even if he got hit on the head with something entirely different. Or perhaps it would have been that Darwin discovered gravity. Or maybe he just hit his head on the ground falling out of the banana tree! A rose is a rose by any other name.

Can we get back to the point of Civ IV please? We are reinventing history (as our theme song strongly suggests)! Not reliving it!
 
Thunderbrd said:
Maybe they should be taken out then until we can get the corresponding cultures filled in. I know how 'the list' goes. Was hoping it was only the Pirates cuz we have a lot of material for them. Are the others any more difficult or do they all have corresponding UUs that simply need to be put in place?


Also... was thinking. About the Base Cultures (African/European etc...) you build in the beginning... Seems to me it would work better for our ideal here that if you aren't playing on this Vanilla option, then those should be tweaked a bit.

The suggestion would be to take them away from the Civ definition as a UB and base their build conditions on the following:
1) They may only be built in a city defined as a Capital (and if there isn't a tag for this then we could use OR prereqs to establish all the Capital and Secondary Capital buildings as being effective prereqs - needs one of them.)

2) They may only be built according to coordinate definitions similar to the definitions we used to set up animal spawns. This means if you start in an African region, you can build an African base culture, in a South American biome, a South American base culture etc...


On the upside, this would make the culture yet more a result of its environment and add support to the ability for many cultures to emerge. Getting African base culture kinda sucks when you're in the polar regions due to the unlikelihood of qualifying for a more specific culture building etc...

On the downside, it'd take a little effort so its not something I'm suggesting for a right away thing. Furthermore, this would pretty much undo all benefit from the Assimilation option without some additional extensive programming, but would provide a more peaceful means of attaining more base cultures by inviting one to plant a sub-capital wonder in a region they want the base culture from.

I suppose Assimilation could be made to make the culture wonders undestroyable in invasions and without it they automatically get removed from invaded cities (or disabled unless the city returns to its original owner...)
Click to expand...

I see what your trying to do. And I don't think you should go this direction. You are making it much more complex than it needs to be. As it is now its not broken and its only because default civ4 gives it automatically that people get confused.

Personally I think this topic should be put aside and we should focus on other issues that do need more attention such as your combat mod (hint hint) or the multi-maps or the balancing of civics and traits. Or all of the later eras. In short I think the culture system is fine the way it is at the moment Aside from someone resurrecting the Progenitor System and/or Cultural Heritage mods I think we should just leave it the way it is.
 
primem0ver said:
I really didin't get the whole culture thing since I am fairly new to the game. I don't want to step on toes but personally I think the whole concept is a bit too constraining.
Click to expand...
Hydro has provided the link to the original thread on the topic here

I think it's been generally well received but there have been criticisms

I feel out of respect for the modders and other players please review the discussion about how we got to here (and yes I am also guilty of this just above). Just about every feature in C2C went through a consensus process. I'm sure it was not your intent but your post sort of came out like "I didn't bother reading what you think; but you should read what I think."

For me, the Cultures with their current constraints add some variety and uncertainty. Wasn't there an earlier Civ where the winning strategy was to pick Rome and rush Iron Working then crank out legions? In C2C you can pick European but you may not get Romans. The Cultures also are very important in selecting early city sites. Getting early Civilian Heroes will give you a science boost at Writing. The Commercial and Science Achievements when combined will increase your science output up to 16%. Early Military Heroes will dominate the Ancient and Classical battlefields, saving army maintenance costs. I bet I'm not the only player to place new early cities where I can pop an early Hero.

primem0ver said:
As long as the general components for the type of buildings developed by a culture exist, there is no need to be picky. Who cares if it is apples or pomegranates? Bronze or brass?
Click to expand...

Interesting point here, and I can see the value in this. (Maybe I could finally have my PYGMY RUSH!!!) I have also proposed a "loosening" of the Cultures by making them National Wonders and not World Wonders. But one downside; if the cultures as World Wonders are too loose and easy to acquire; then the smartest Civ just grabs them all. In their current rare state they can really re-arrange the leader board.

What think others? A field of similar resources that allows the Culture?
 
Hydromancerx said:
@WimpyTheWarrior

The problem with the units needing the Wonder is that some people complained that they could not build the culture units in their "military city". Which is one reason culture was made into a resource. You should check with the old topic on this and see the process. It will help answer why it has evolved into the form it has currently. While not ideal it is the best implementation so far.
Click to expand...

Yes, I now recall that. And I am one of the players that loves the military specialist building. (and maybe one that complained!)

Hydromancerx said:
Personally I think this topic should be put aside and we should focus on other issues In short I think the culture system is fine the way it is at the moment Aside from someone resurrecting the Progenitor System and/or Cultural Heritage mods I think we should just leave it the way it is.
Click to expand...

Do you have an opinion about Culture Wonders being a National Wonder instead of a World Wonder? It really is a trivial change.
 
WimpyTheWarrior said:
Interesting point here, and I can see the value in this. (Maybe I could finally have my PYGMY RUSH!!!) I have also proposed a "loosening" of the Cultures by making them National Wonders and not World Wonders. But one downside; if the cultures as World Wonders are too loose and easy to acquire; then the smartest Civ just grabs them all. In their current rare state they can really re-arrange the leader board.

What think others? A field of similar resources that allows the Culture?
Click to expand...

This is why having limited wonders is important to balance. By not being able to build all the wonders because you hit the limit means that other civs will get wonders you just could not take. I know some people hate this but really it helps spread out power to the AI so they can stay competitive.

On a side note if you really want to have a challenging game, don't build any wonders. The fact that the AI get them will shift the balance in their favor and give you a more exciting and "edge of your seat" game. Especially if the AI can get to the "punk" cultures which not only have more than one unit but also special buildings.

WimpyTheWarrior said:
Do you have an opinion about Culture Wonders being a National Wonder instead of a World Wonder? It really is a trivial change.
Click to expand...

I feel that if they are made into national wonders that they will become less special. They might as well be normal units if you do that. However I have been thinking about possibly making the "punk" cultures have a more than 1 limit. Meaning like the first 3 to 5 to build it can get it. However I am not sure about this yet.

Likewise I have been thinking about regional units. Such as all Asian civ get X unit or all African civs get Y unit. We already have this with buildings, I do not see why it cannot be done with some "Regional Units".
 
I think UUs of stable unitary cohesive civs (eg. praets, vultures) should only be buildable by one civ (World Wonder). Praets never fought praets, except maybe on a tiny palace-coup skirmish scale such as when Caligula was assassinated. This kind of culture is specific to a particular empire.

However, this is not the case for cultures like Zulu or Polynesian, and many others. For many cultures, fighting among themselves was the national sport. I would like to see UUs of such cultures buildable by multiple civs. This kind of culture is specific to an ethnicity, but not to any particular nation/civ. It can spread the way tiles across your border have some of your civ's culture (in vanilla Civ4/BtS anyway - is this the same in C2C?). This should allow your neighbour to start building koas/impis/camel archers or whatever your UU is.

It has occurred to me while writing that they are two very different concepts, and not at all suited to having the same term describe both...

I don't see why any of this needs to be about specific resources by the way (unless it's a strategic resource that you really can't build the unit without). English culture is obviously specific to one nation (the first type above). I would like to see it buildable by the first civ with European culture that chooses to do so (which will most likely be the English civ when it is in the game).

Resources that are closely linked with a culture now are often only recent arrivals. Consider potatoes (Irish), from which are made vodka (Russian); tomatoes (Italian), and tea (English): none of these resources are native to the lands/civs with which they are so closely identified.
 
Hi,

Getting back to the argument which was there in the first place:

crazyewok said:
But is the requiremnets of a extact array of resourses before I can build a culture! I want to play britain but because I dont have a apple tree in the exact place I cant even though I picked it at the start of the game!
Click to expand...

Wouldn't an easy solution be to relax the preconditions on cultures? Like:
"Culture English" need "some tech" AND "Apple" OR "ENGLISH :king: selected in the first place"
just like the original Unique Buildings did it?

This way it would be easy for everybody to build his preferred culture, no matter if he has the resource or not. Of course this will be a big advantage for Alexander... he always has a grip on the Greek Culture.
 
You know making the requirements easier for having the starting name/country is a good idea in my opinion.
 
I really like the current system: starting out in the Stone Age, you don't know what kind of a society you're going to develop, it will depend on the terrain and resources that are available. Making national Cultures a resource was, for me, one of the intriguing features of this mod, as was tying them to natural resources and, in some cases, terrain. Maybe a bit unrealistic, but works within the limitations of the game engine.

I do agree with what someone else posted in this thread, that the system could be better explained in the 'pedia, probably somewhere in the "C2C Concepts" section. This would help new players wanting to learn about the mod's unique features.

I always play all random civs (except in historical mods like RfC and its associated modmods, obviously), so I'm not fixated on playing a particular civ. But there are clearly players who want that option, so if the team can make a simple game option to allow that, that would probably satisfy most people. You could probably call it something like "Start with National Culture" (I was going to say "Native Culture," but that would probably be confusing, given how "Native Culture" is used in the mod).
 
WimpyTheWarrior said:
I'm sure it was not your intent but your post sort of came out like "I didn't bother reading what you think; but you should read what I think."
Click to expand...

You are right. Sorry if I came across that way but it wasn't my intention. I just saw a lot of back and forth in the beginning of this post and I don't really like contention (aka drama). I just think it really is a matter with a simple, back to the basics solution. Though I should probably read up on the links you gave so I understand the situation better.
 
Nor'easter said:
I really like the current system: starting out in the Stone Age, you don't know what kind of a society you're going to develop, it will depend on the terrain and resources that are available. Making national Cultures a resource was, for me, one of the intriguing features of this mod, as was tying them to natural resources and, in some cases, terrain. Maybe a bit unrealistic, but works within the limitations of the game engine.

I do agree with what someone else posted in this thread, that the system could be better explained in the 'pedia, probably somewhere in the "C2C Concepts" section. This would help new players wanting to learn about the mod's unique features.

I always play all random civs (except in historical mods like RfC and its associated modmods, obviously), so I'm not fixated on playing a particular civ. But there are clearly players who want that option, so if the team can make a simple game option to allow that, that would probably satisfy most people. You could probably call it something like "Start with National Culture" (I was going to say "Native Culture," but that would probably be confusing, given how "Native Culture" is used in the mod).
Click to expand...

Indeed. I also play random civs. So what if I get England and I only can build Roman culture or what. If I want to have Elizabeth fielding a 100 Preats I will do that.

Actually is possible just to have leader selection and no civ? That actually makes more sense we playing a leader instead of a civ in Caveman 2 Cosmos since we actually build our own civ.
 
Alex Costa said:
Actually is possible just to have leader selection and no civ? That actually makes more sense we playing a leader instead of a civ in Caveman 2 Cosmos since we actually build our own civ.
Click to expand...

Technically, that's exactly what it is now. The "name" gives you a geographical starting culture, but that's it. The only reason I pick certain civs is for the leader (or to be more precise the leader's traits). That's why I was puzzled a few months ago when people were clamoring for more civs that really were just random names.
 
Alex Costa said:
Indeed. I also play random civs. So what if I get England and I only can build Roman culture or what. If I want to have Elizabeth fielding a 100 Preats I will do that.

Actually is possible just to have leader selection and no civ? That actually makes more sense we playing a leader instead of a civ in Caveman 2 Cosmos since we actually build our own civ.
Click to expand...

dusckr87 said:
Technically, that's exactly what it is now. The "name" gives you a geographical starting culture, but that's it. The only reason I pick certain civs is for the leader (or to be more precise the leader's traits). That's why I was puzzled a few months ago when people were clamoring for more civs that really were just random names.
Click to expand...

If we fixed "Culturally Linked Starts" to put your starting nation on the planet near where it would have started environmentally it might help. This option causes my Egyptians to almost always spawn near one of the poles. ;)

You get two things from choosing a nation at the start. The flag and the city art style. I am not sure but it may be possible to change this dynamically.

My preference would be to have a generic flag and city art style until you get Cultural Identity when you would make some choices based on environment and what you have done. I expect you would still get to chose one of the base cultures but if you had built a Zebra trainer then one of the choices may be to convert all your horse resources into Zebras instead:mischief:
 
When this was first implemented I didn't care for it myself but now it's developed into a new way to play for me. A new layer of strategy. For some reason, I love trying to build all the different cultures in the game. When I start out and begin finding out who my neighbors are, all I seem to think about is what their native culture is and how soon to catpure it. It's not something I planned out or anything, it just slowly developed over time. Besides, it's one of the things that makes C2C unique.
 
SteelSterling said:
I love trying to build all the different cultures in the game. When I start out and begin finding out who my neighbors are, all I seem to think about is what their native culture is and how soon to capture it.
Click to expand...

+1 to this. It is also very advantageous, as it allows you to obtain more Embassy Wonders, Culture Wonders, Heroes, and UUs.

I did notice once that the AI had conquered Cities of a different Native Culture but never bothered to build the Native Culture Building. I am guesing that the AI probably evaluated it only on the culture benefit without considering how it unlocks other things.
 
Hydromancerx said:
I feel that if they are made into national wonders that they will become less special. They might as well be normal units if you do that. However I have been thinking about possibly making the "punk" cultures have a more than 1 limit. Meaning like the first 3 to 5 to build it can get it. However I am not sure about this yet.
Click to expand...

I thought I would post as a follow-up to an experiment I did where I made the Cultural Embassies into National Wonders instead of World Wonders.

Well exactly as Hydro stated it all works but it makes the Embassies less special and reduces the reward when you build one. I've attached a screen shot showing the National Wonders of the Info screen. 10 of the starting 25 Civs are American and four have built the Huron Embassy. It's an Immense C2C_Terra map played on Immortal level at Snail speed and I've played 26 hours. The game is still early; I'm the only Civ in the Ancient Age which I just reached this turn.

I recall a video of a speech Sid Meier gave on the topic of game design. He spoke of the need to "reward the player to draw them into a game". This is true regardless of whether it's Civilization ("I've built Stonehenge!") or a FPS ("I killed those zombies blocking the medicine cabinet!") or RPG ("I delivered the +3 Scroll of Righteousness to the White Wizard!"). A stream of small but constant rewards will keep the player engaged in the game. ("Just one more turn and I'll discover Masonry").

Making the Embassies into National Wonders reduces their reward value. Now it's "Ho-hum, I've built the Egyptian Embassy. Yawn." It doesn't break the game but it does make it less rewarding. This thread has arguments on both sides of the realism of the Embassies as World Wonders or National Wonders or Properties, but certainly as a one of a kind World Wonder it is the most rewarding.
 
You get two things from choosing a nation at the start. The flag and the city art style. I am not sure but it may be possible to change this dynamically.
Click to expand...

You also get access to a particular Native Culture -- European, Asian, etc.

If you were going to take the "create your own civilization" idea to its logical endpoint, you could do two things:

1) Have each civ start as a generic civ, sort of along the lines that's been discussed in the thread on Progenitor Civs. You could be assigned a random Native Culture (European, Asian, etc.), to reflect the fact that your Stone Age tribe doesn't have any control over whether it's American, African, Asian, or what have you. Alternatively, you could build ONE Native Culture, which would block you from building any of the others. And maybe your civ wouldn't get a name until it built its first National Culture, when it would get the name of the National Culture built.

2) Start with leaders that have no traits and acquire their traits based on their in-game actions. The Rise from Erebus mod has Minor (or Emergent?) Leaders, which start with one trait and acquire their second one based on in-game actions, so that could be something to look at.
 
Nor'easter said:
You also get access to a particular Native Culture -- European, Asian, etc.

If you were going to take the "create your own civilization" idea to its logical endpoint, you could do two things:

1) Have each civ start as a generic civ, sort of along the lines that's been discussed in the thread on Progenitor Civs. You could be assigned a random Native Culture (European, Asian, etc.), to reflect the fact that your Stone Age tribe doesn't have any control over whether it's American, African, Asian, or what have you. Alternatively, you could build ONE Native Culture, which would block you from building any of the others. And maybe your civ wouldn't get a name until it built its first National Culture, when it would get the name of the National Culture built.

2) Start with leaders that have no traits and acquire their traits based on their in-game actions. The Rise from Erebus mod has Minor (or Emergent?) Leaders, which start with one trait and acquire their second one based on in-game actions, so that could be something to look at.
Click to expand...

1) I'd rather that wasn't random but based on the location of the starting city. The cultures that emerged in Africa, Europe etc... were very much a product of their environment (one could go as far to say that the very variances in Human evolution into various races also had a lot to do with the environments they were in.)

2) I don't feel its necessary to make leaders start with fewer traits than they already do now, BUT I'm completely with you on the idea of having them learn more as they go. That falls in line with what Wimpy was saying earlier about earned bonuses. Its another good way to bonus players. I not only have plans for this, its in the works now. As usual, however, it will be optional for those players who don't want this kind of power scaling in their games.
 
Nor'easter said:
2) Start with leaders that have no traits and acquire their traits based on their in-game actions. The Rise from Erebus mod has Minor (or Emergent?) Leaders, which start with one trait and acquire their second one based on in-game actions, so that could be something to look at.
Click to expand...

Oh god yes! This was what RiFE was working on before the mod stopped its development. The idea was that you'd start with no or very few traits, maybe one trait based on that leader, and as you did certain things in game you'd gain up to two new traits. However, you could lose those traits for another one later on if you advanced that new trait further.

It probably worked better in an RPG setting anyway, but I think it worked like this: every time you kill a unit, you gain points towards the Aggressive trait, wiping out a civ entirely gives you lots of points, discover a religion or building a temple gives you points towards Spiritual, do a trade mission for Financial, build a wonder for Industrious.

So, say you conquered your entire continent early game, wiping out barbarians and the other civs. You gain maybe Aggressive and Charismatic. However, after that you have no one to fight and focus on development. You might lose Aggressive and gain Financial.

Well, put it on the end of the long long list of things to look into that might be fun.

With regards to how cultures currently work, I'm a fan. But I would like them to be based on more than resources, if it was possible. Israel, for instance, wasn't based on a resource, but on certain deeds and events and religious ideals. The United States of America was an idea, not based on access to cattle. My own nation (Australia) really only developed during a time of suffering and sacrifice in war, loyal to our distant monarch but still with our own people with our own culture. There are hundred of other examples in every corner of the world. Events, not resources.

I'm thinking...maybe have some cultures only appear in game due to certain events/event triggers? A city being conquered, a hero being killed, a revolution occurring, a great general popping, a volcano erupting, etc.
 
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