Limited Nukes

I was just play a great game (by my standards), way behind but thats where the challenge comes from. Anyways, i had worked sooo hard on upgrade these units, and a matter of 1 turn they are all DEAD (pic 1 nukes)

The opposing Civ put in three nukes and everything i had done for over 1000ish turns and 25-30 hours are gone (pic 2 units gone)

So i need a better way to get NUKEs under control, so i will need ALOT of ideas/suggestions on how to do this, without hurting the player(s) that like alot of nuking. (Which i hate btw).

Do you think it should be in the game option (On/Off all the time), in the BUG options (as to turn on/off when you want to).

I just hate wasting my time getting to a point of doing great (in my mind) and then POOF its gone!! Cant get that time back.

Does War Wariness have any flavor in this?
Does Taxes have anything to do with this?
Do Civics need to be a part of this?
HUGE penalties for using them?
Just examples above anything is UP for ideas/suggestion to better control this out of WHACK Nuke problem, besides there really have only been 2 bombs dropped during war conflict in the history of the world anyways. (Plenty tested, but those dont matter).

@strategyonly

If you get far enough in the game Nukes become worthless. Awhile back when I was in the trans-human era (my 2nd time ever) I was not able to nuke my enemy because of their advanced anti-nuke defenses. Every missile was intercepted.

In short I do not think we need to do a complete overhaul because there are factors in place that make nuclear war very difficult to do. You just have to get there before your destroyed.

BTW did you get any of the Post-Apocalyptic units after you were nuked?

EDIT: Note that I think some of your ideas could be helpful for game balance tough.

If nukes WERE used like they could be used -- we won't be talking now that only 2 were used There are H-bombs too, by the way. So what happened to you is very realistic. Do not keep so many units in one place. Build SDI. Nuke first. Win before nukes. Pillage Uranium with Spies. Leaders of the World think a lot about nukes, why shouldn't you? Modern leaders don't do many things just because nuclear threat DOES exist! Before nukes I could imagine a War between USSR and USA, after MAD became apparent -- not any more! Life is hard, why the game should be any different?

Hydromancerx said:

@strategyonly

If you get far enough in the game Nukes become worthless. Awhile back when I was in the trans-human era (my 2nd time ever) I was not able to nuke my enemy because of their advanced anti-nuke defenses. Every missile was intercepted.

In short I do not think we need to do a complete overhaul because there are factors in place that make nuclear war very difficult to do. You just have to get there before your destroyed.

BTW did you get any of the Post-Apocalyptic units after you were nuked?

EDIT: Note that I think some of your ideas could be helpful for game balance tough.

Click to expand...

Heck i am just in Industrial Era now(Barely), while my 5 others Civs are in the Modern/Trans-Human Era, i am so far behind, (as always). I cant defend against that kind of stuff, I thought i was doing GREAT till this happened.
I really cant do anything but DIE.
I understand what your saying but GEEZ.
Then the player wonders why those higher era's are not balanced etc., heck cant get to them.

It is probably because you are way behind the enemy tech-wise. At any rate, I think that we need to look at the nuke AI and make the AI much more reluctant to use nukes, as currently they don't have much of an incentive not to use them, they don't care about MAD really.

Also, Hydro is right that once you are in the TH era nukes are far less potent, thanks to defenses.

But I have some ideas about Nuclear war and weapons, and may discuss those more fully in the new year.

ls612 said:

It is probably because you are way behind the enemy tech-wise. At any rate, I think that we need to look at the nuke AI and make the AI much more reluctant to use nukes, as currently they don't have much of an incentive not to use them, they don't care about MAD really.

Also, Hydro is right that once you are in the TH era nukes are far less potent, thanks to defenses.

But I have some ideas about Nuclear war and weapons, and may discuss those more fully in the new year.

Click to expand...

Now that sounds like a great plan, and i believe you are correct, it is because i am so far behind, but isn't that normal in real life also, alot of countrties are far behind. And YES i believe also what you said, "we" do need the AI to be MORE reluctant to use them, i absolutely agree with that point.

Or cant use them on civs that are one tech(s)/era behind, somehow?

strategyonly said:

Or cant use them on civs that are one tech(s)/era behind, somehow?

Click to expand...

No, that would be bad, it penalizes being a tech leader, adn there is no logical basis for it. If you are in a world with nukes and you don't have nukes you need to ally with a civ that has them.

Actually... I'm impressed that the AI was smart enough with its targeting. The Vanilla BtS Nuke AI was HORRIBLE in that it would only target one to four spaces with something like 100 nuke strikes each. After a few there's nothing more that can be done there y'know?

I realize its frustrating but there is a No Nukes option...

So in the Real World we only had 2 nukes dropped. Yes, once they hit, all faces on the planet went white with terror in realization of the horror we had unlocked. Japan immediately surrendered, knowing to do otherwise would mean total annihilation.

That was 1945 and ever since we've been locked into a situation where all international policy is driven by the need to avert a massive global thermonuclear war while somehow achieving military objectives at the same time. Instability among world leaders could tip and in a flash everything we know could be gone. During the 80's we understood that we lived on a planet that, despite its size and density, could be destroyed 100 times over, incinerated by the nuclear waves of fury we could throw at one another to the point that we could've ended up like the asteroid belt.

We've done a lot of massive disarmament since then but we still have enough to ensure Mutually Assured Destruction to any enemy who hurts us bad enough but gives us enough time to hit a little red button.

Our world is in a state of balance to some extent. It's understood that there are opposing forces to any nuclear power that would offer equally destructive retribution if any of those major powers actually used their weaponry. So now all we have to do is make sure we know what every other human being on the planet is doing to ensure that nobody is developing a nuclear weapon we don't know about! Thus we have 'the war on terror'.

But lets imagine, for a moment, what would've happened if Germany had beat us to it (and they might've done so if we'd delayed for as long as a week or if we hadn't hit a few perfect military targets, or if they simply had not declared war until they had worked out the technology enough to apply it as part of the attack. In fact... we wouldn't have developed it ourselves without German Science and Scientists!)

Do you think we'd be looking back on a history where only 2 Nukes were ever used in war? Every military force would've been targeted, every major city until a full and unconditional surrender from every nation on Earth was had and we'd all be one Global Germany today (albeit there'd be a lot more lands that would be completely unlivable!)

What you experienced is an unfortunate side effect of being militarily strong enough to be a thorn in the side of the world leaders and yet being vulnerable (thanks to being technologically behind) to a Nuclear strike in that you could not retaliate with the same. Honestly, I believe the AI played it exactly as they should've if you had proven yourself difficult to beat in conventional warfare despite your low tech. They had no fear of nuclear retaliation unless you have friends much more advanced than yourself.

EDIT: Ways to counter nuclear nations:

• Take out ALL sources of uranium (if that's possible - the one that can really screw you up is from trade and its very tough when your opponent has a city planted on a uranium source!)
• UN resolution to ban nukes (All too easy usually as every AI will approve of it when put to vote - or at least they used to... not sure now.)
• SDI and other such defenses
• Mutually Assured Destruction usually holds the AI at bay (or it should!)
• Make friends. Make Powerful friends. Form Defensive Pacts with them so they take it personal when you get hit - provides that Mutually Assured Destruction factor.
• NEVER underestimate the danger involved in not being up to par with a nuclear enemy.
• Send out the spies to make sure you know where all nukes are and to try to undo them before they are used.
• I'm not sure but it may be possible to make sure that the ai never has access to the right BUILDINGS to make nukes too.
• Be mindful of ranges. In the early stages of nuclear weaponry, range is a limited factor. During that time, watch out for subs as they could be packing heat.

Honestly, you just got Semi-Automatic weapons while they have nukes. Even without them their units could probably still roll right over you.

Thunderbrd said:

But lets imagine, for a moment, what would've happened if Germany had beat us to it (and they might've done so if we'd delayed for as long as a week or if we hadn't hit a few perfect military targets,

Click to expand...

Gonna stop you right here.

After the bombs were dropped on Japan, some people interviewed the leading German Nuclear Physicist about how he though the bombs worked. He was completely wrong on just about every level. Germany was years away from cracking it at the very least.

Thunderbrd said:

I realize its frustrating but there is a No Nukes option...

So in the Real World we only had 2 nukes dropped. Yes, once they hit, all faces on the planet went white with terror in realization of the horror we had unlocked. Japan immediately surrendered, knowing to do otherwise would mean total annihilation.

We've done a lot of massive disarmament since then but we still have enough to ensure Mutually Assured Destruction to any enemy who hurts us bad enough but gives us enough time to hit a little red button.

Our world is in a state of balance to some extent. It's understood that there are opposing forces to any nuclear power that would offer equally destructive retribution if any of those major powers actually used their weaponry. So now all we have to do is make sure we know what every other human being on the planet is doing to ensure that nobody is developing a nuclear weapon we don't know about! Thus we have 'the war on terror'.

But lets imagine, for a moment, what would've happened if Germany had beat us to it (and they might've done so if we'd delayed for as long as a week or if we hadn't hit a few perfect military targets, or if they simply had not declared war until they had worked out the technology enough to apply it as part of the attack. In fact... we wouldn't have developed it ourselves without German Science and Scientists!)

Do you think we'd be looking back on a history where only 2 Nukes were ever used in war? Every military force would've been targeted, every major city until a full and unconditional surrender from every nation on Earth was had and we'd all be one Global Germany today (albeit there'd be a lot more lands that would be completely unlivable!)

What you experienced is an unfortunate side effect of being militarily strong enough to be a thorn in the side of the world leaders and yet being vulnerable (thanks to being technologically behind) to a Nuclear strike in that you could not retaliate with the same. Honestly, I believe the AI played it exactly as they should've if you had proven yourself difficult to beat in conventional warfare despite your low tech. They had no fear of nuclear retaliation unless you have friends much more advanced than yourself.

Click to expand...

OK i looked everywhere for that NO Nukes, next time i will MOST certainly check that off, i hate the NUKE stuff, all the way back to Civ III even. (I am not a fan).

But if everyone else says its fine, then i'll just leave it on my lack of playing the game.

hmm... I'll review to make sure we DO have that option. If we don't I don't mind making it for ya. I thought I had seen that all the way back in vanilla but I could be wrong.

the mod Does have that option although i don't think i'll be using that as i usually get again to Par round the Renaissance era either by swallowing up minor nations expanding my military might and Research production i even managed to Crush my biggest threat based on the fact i got more soldiers and the fact so many of them i could churn out and that while being behind in tech but yea Nukes deliver a might that can tip the scale (Although i haven't yet gotten so far at C2C) but i lost 100 units in 2 turns due to Collateral Damage from cannons and such that was a painfull thing to hear and watch as they had no chance

The best advice I've seen here (thanks Thunderbrd) is to get a defensive pact with someone nuclear-armed. Was that an option for you?

The other advice I would offer, especially if you're playtesting, but also if you just like the AI to leave you alone sometimes, is:

- cheat

Just WB yourself a nuke from time to time so that MAD is maintained as a serious possibility for an AI who nukes you.

Yudishtira said:

The best advice I've seen here (thanks Thunderbrd) is to get a defensive pact with someone nuclear-armed. Was that an option for you?

The other advice I would offer, especially if you're playtesting, but also if you just like the AI to leave you alone sometimes, is:

- cheat

Just WB yourself a nuke from time to time so that MAD is maintained as a serious possibility for an AI who nukes you.

Click to expand...

*Thinks of NATO project*

You all just gave me an idea.

Instead of limiting the nukes, I need some tags put into the DLL which I'll describe below.

Since nukes are self-limiting in not only diplomatic penalties, but also maintenance penalties, we need a new approach. Hell, we need a whole new module in this game.

For the sake of the OP, I'm putting these units of this new module up for discussion for specs and specifics. If you guys are interested in where I'm going, I'll post a new thread on my idea sooner rather than later.

New XML tags for Units:

bCanInterceptNuke - boolean if the unit can intercept a nuke
iInterceptNukeChance - integer of chance unit can intercept nukes at
iInterceptNukeRange - radius of tiles that the unit may intercept nukes from
RequireSeenUnitOR - tag that opens a list of unit names <sUnitName> that the nation must see (at least 1) to unlock requirement to build the unit in question.

New Units:

Mobile Missile Battery:
20% chance to intercept nukes within 2-tile radius (where new tags will fit in)
2% chance to intercept aircraft
National Unit: 10 allowed
Upgrade from Mobile SAM
Req: All techs Mobile SAM reqs
Req: Known opponent has used a nuke (where new tags will fit in)

Anti-Missile Flak:
10% chance to intercept nukes on occupied tile
1% chance to intercept aircraft
Immobile
1 per city
Upgrade from AA Flak (If there is no AA Flak unit, make one)
Req: All techs AA Flak reqs
Req: Known opponent has used a nuke
Obsolete by SDI

Anti-Missile Artillery:
5% chance to intercept nukes on occupied tile
Obsolete by Mobile Missile Battery
National Unit: 20 allowed
Req: All techs an Artillery reqs
Req: Known opponent has used a nuke

Anti-Missile Cannon:
2% chance to intercept nukes on occupied tile
Obsolete by Anti-Missile Artillery
Req: All techs a cannon reqs
Req: Known opponent has used a nuke

Civ Fuehrer said:

You all just gave me an idea.

Instead of limiting the nukes, I need some tags put into the DLL which I'll describe below.

Since nukes are self-limiting in not only diplomatic penalties, but also maintenance penalties, we need a new approach. Hell, we need a whole new module in this game.

For the sake of the OP, I'm putting these units of this new module up for discussion for specs and specifics. If you guys are interested in where I'm going, I'll post a new thread on my idea sooner rather than later.

New XML tags for Units:

bCanInterceptNuke - boolean if the unit can intercept a nuke
iInterceptNukeChance - integer of chance unit can intercept nukes at
iInterceptNukeRange - radius of tiles that the unit may intercept nukes from
RequireSeenUnitOR - tag that opens a list of unit names <sUnitName> that the nation must see (at least 1) to unlock requirement to build the unit in question.

Click to expand...

Even better make it a modmod(after "we" put in the tags of course), and then you'll have your own thread, to have tons of ideas also. Never know what can happen, just like this thread has proved me with really another "pair of eyes" and i got past that fright i was in a compromise and everything is good again, just need a little help and some ideas. So all i can say is go for it.

Thunderbrd said:

I realize its frustrating but there is a No Nukes option...

Click to expand...

OK where is it at??

Civ Fuehrer said:

<snip>

New XML tags for Units:

bCanInterceptNuke - boolean if the unit can intercept a nuke
iInterceptNukeChance - integer of chance unit can intercept nukes at
iInterceptNukeRange - radius of tiles that the unit may intercept nukes from
RequireSeenUnitOR - tag that opens a list of unit names <sUnitName> that the nation must see (at least 1) to unlock requirement to build the unit in question.

Click to expand...

I could certainly make the first three tags here, I'll look and see how hard it would be.

strategyonly said:

OK where is it at??

Click to expand...

Yeah, I looked into that and I guess we don't have one.

We will on my next update though