Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Last I checked you didn't even pay all 200 EP to Jamaica. Only 100. So you should be spending your money on that. Beyond that, the Lisbon Declaration did set point limits on firepower for some of your ships and designs. 
Capto Iugulum: 1920 - 1939
- Thread starter EQandcivfanatic
- Start date
The Greatest Northern Railway
18 Months Prior
Late afternoon sun poured into the office of Mister M. Frölander. The light dappled off of his doorway. It was a nice door- oak, he suspected, though he’d never really taken the time to find out for sure.
For the third time, he turned his wistful eyes away from the door, where visions of a lakeside summer cottage taunted him, and forced them back down to the desk. Letters from the Nya Göteborg office, requisition papers, and several maps were held down by an assortment of improvised paperweights. Frölander took a quick swig from one, and then forced his way through another letter.
It was no good. Sammanström’s summers were as hot as its winters were cold, and the weather was doing its earnest best to cut his productivity down to nothing. Privately, Frölander prayed for a distraction.
Abruptly, the phone rang. Deliverance! Frölander dug through a pile of loose papers, and pulled the candlestick telephone to his ear.
“Hello Paulina.”
“Hello Mister Frölander,” his secretary responded, “There are several men to see you, an army fellow and a few others.”
His eyebrow raised.
“Very well, I’ll come down and meet them. We can discuss it outside.”
“Mister... ah, make that General Ledanov is quite insistent that this discussion take place indoors.”
A general? Frölander’s curiosity was now thoroughly piqued.
“Very well, bring them up.”
He hung up the phone, and stood up, stretching and straightening his suit. He cracked open a window, enjoying a brief rush of air, but the heat outside was just as bad. With some regret, he closed the window, and walked up to the door, just in time to open it at the first knock.
At the door was Paulina, with four men behind her.
“Mister Frölander, may I introduce Misters Bohm, Bailey, Jenssen and Ledanov.”
“Matthias Frölander, of the Västra Scandinavia Järnvägen. Pleased to be at your service?”
A large, balding man with an intimidating black moustache reached out to shake hands, as Paulina turned to depart.
”General Vadim Ledanov, with the Kungliga Försvarsmakten. These men are Lars Jenssen, speaking on behalf of the Riksdag, and Erling Sjodin, Leonard Bohm, and Lester Bailey, a few of our financiers.”
Frölander quickly assessed the group. Jenssen he knew, being the local representative in Nya Stockholm, and Bailey he knew from past cooperation- the man was an American expat, one of the wave who’d settled in Vinland after the Scott regime collapsed a decade ago. The man had since gone on to build a potent business empire in the west, and had collaborated with Frölander several times in the past.
“So, how might I help you gentlemen?”
“Well Mattie,” began Bailey in his characteristic and strongly-accented twang, “The General here’s interested in getting some railway work done, and the Statsministry’s provided tentative approval based on funding, which Erlie and Len and I have rustled together, so we figured the very first place we’d want to go was to the head of the western railway himself-”
At this point, General Ledanov, a look of impatience on his face, interrupted.
“We are building a railway to Aisuyochi.”
The room fell silent for a moment. Bailey broke the silence with a belated “Yes, that.”
Frölander made a gesture to wait, then turned around and started back to his desk. Aisuyochi? What money’s to be made building a line to there? Are the summer steamships not enough? He dispelled these questions for the moment, as he arrived back at his center of operations. While it looked disorganized, he knew well where everything was placed, and in very little time he procured a map of western Vinland. With wave, he called over the others, sweeping away the clutter and placing the map flat down on the desk.
“Well gentlemen, currently our rail network only extends as far as Vitahästar. The line goes out west to Fort Strindberg and Norrahuvudstad, and south to the Dimmafjorden on the Pacific Ocean. Beyond Vitahästar, it’s naught but mountains, forests and rivers, all serviced by riverboats along the Vildaflod and its tributaries. Are you saying you want an extension of our rail network down the Vildaflod basin?”
”Yes, and potentially down into Scottson sound as well.”
“Um... if I may ask, why are we building this?”
“We may soon need to significantly reinforce the region. I advise you don’t repeat that.”
Frölander felt a little lightheaded for a moment, as he considered the implications. Were the Japanese invading? Was Vinland invading? The papers had been railing against Japanese expansionism for some time now, was this finally it? He had not given much credence to the idea, until now.
“Leave those concerns to me.” Spoke Ledanov, “I merely want you to provide this infrastructure. Now, I believe I was speaking about Scottson.
Frölander paused again for a moment, as he examined the relief on the map. The abrupt threat of war was disturbing, but invigorating- this would have to be among his best projects.
“You simply can’t get straight from the Vitahästar spur to Scottson. You’ve got the highest mountains in the continent right between interior Norrland and the coast.”
Ledanov frowned. ”Do you have any other suggestions?”
Frölander’s practiced eyes ran back and forth over the map, as he built up a mental picture of the region in his head. Hesitatingly, he began.
“A branch line out of Blylgans... or maybe Byström could work. Still, you have to get over the Alyeska Range.”
“You’ve done it before with the Dimmafjorden line.”
Frölander smiled upon realizing that Ledanov was familiar with his past work.
“Yes, well, that was quite the engineering challenge, but we put the line through. How long do I have to put this line through?”
Ledanov’s face was stony serious once again. “Six months.”
“What!? No, six months is barely even enough time to survey a line to the border, I’d need an army of surveyors alone, and we don’t have enough rail workers to put the line through- and do we have enough rail production capacity to even keep pace? I’d need two years!”
“Calm yourself, Mister Frölander, this is a quite do-able task, and in two years time we may need a line all the way to the coast!”
“I’d need upwards of a hundred million kronor to pull something of this scale off in such time!”
“Mister Bailey,” began General Ledanov, “If you please?”
Lester Bailey quoted a number.
The room fell silent. This time, Matthias Frölander was the first to break the silence.
“I... with that... Yes. Yes, I can build you a railway.”
“Will it be ready for the coming summer?”
“For spring.”
18 Months Prior
Late afternoon sun poured into the office of Mister M. Frölander. The light dappled off of his doorway. It was a nice door- oak, he suspected, though he’d never really taken the time to find out for sure.
For the third time, he turned his wistful eyes away from the door, where visions of a lakeside summer cottage taunted him, and forced them back down to the desk. Letters from the Nya Göteborg office, requisition papers, and several maps were held down by an assortment of improvised paperweights. Frölander took a quick swig from one, and then forced his way through another letter.
It was no good. Sammanström’s summers were as hot as its winters were cold, and the weather was doing its earnest best to cut his productivity down to nothing. Privately, Frölander prayed for a distraction.
Abruptly, the phone rang. Deliverance! Frölander dug through a pile of loose papers, and pulled the candlestick telephone to his ear.
“Hello Paulina.”
“Hello Mister Frölander,” his secretary responded, “There are several men to see you, an army fellow and a few others.”
His eyebrow raised.
“Very well, I’ll come down and meet them. We can discuss it outside.”
“Mister... ah, make that General Ledanov is quite insistent that this discussion take place indoors.”
A general? Frölander’s curiosity was now thoroughly piqued.
“Very well, bring them up.”
He hung up the phone, and stood up, stretching and straightening his suit. He cracked open a window, enjoying a brief rush of air, but the heat outside was just as bad. With some regret, he closed the window, and walked up to the door, just in time to open it at the first knock.
At the door was Paulina, with four men behind her.
“Mister Frölander, may I introduce Misters Bohm, Bailey, Jenssen and Ledanov.”
“Matthias Frölander, of the Västra Scandinavia Järnvägen. Pleased to be at your service?”
A large, balding man with an intimidating black moustache reached out to shake hands, as Paulina turned to depart.
”General Vadim Ledanov, with the Kungliga Försvarsmakten. These men are Lars Jenssen, speaking on behalf of the Riksdag, and Erling Sjodin, Leonard Bohm, and Lester Bailey, a few of our financiers.”
Frölander quickly assessed the group. Jenssen he knew, being the local representative in Nya Stockholm, and Bailey he knew from past cooperation- the man was an American expat, one of the wave who’d settled in Vinland after the Scott regime collapsed a decade ago. The man had since gone on to build a potent business empire in the west, and had collaborated with Frölander several times in the past.
“So, how might I help you gentlemen?”
“Well Mattie,” began Bailey in his characteristic and strongly-accented twang, “The General here’s interested in getting some railway work done, and the Statsministry’s provided tentative approval based on funding, which Erlie and Len and I have rustled together, so we figured the very first place we’d want to go was to the head of the western railway himself-”
At this point, General Ledanov, a look of impatience on his face, interrupted.
“We are building a railway to Aisuyochi.”
The room fell silent for a moment. Bailey broke the silence with a belated “Yes, that.”
Frölander made a gesture to wait, then turned around and started back to his desk. Aisuyochi? What money’s to be made building a line to there? Are the summer steamships not enough? He dispelled these questions for the moment, as he arrived back at his center of operations. While it looked disorganized, he knew well where everything was placed, and in very little time he procured a map of western Vinland. With wave, he called over the others, sweeping away the clutter and placing the map flat down on the desk.
“Well gentlemen, currently our rail network only extends as far as Vitahästar. The line goes out west to Fort Strindberg and Norrahuvudstad, and south to the Dimmafjorden on the Pacific Ocean. Beyond Vitahästar, it’s naught but mountains, forests and rivers, all serviced by riverboats along the Vildaflod and its tributaries. Are you saying you want an extension of our rail network down the Vildaflod basin?”
”Yes, and potentially down into Scottson sound as well.”
“Um... if I may ask, why are we building this?”
“We may soon need to significantly reinforce the region. I advise you don’t repeat that.”
Frölander felt a little lightheaded for a moment, as he considered the implications. Were the Japanese invading? Was Vinland invading? The papers had been railing against Japanese expansionism for some time now, was this finally it? He had not given much credence to the idea, until now.
“Leave those concerns to me.” Spoke Ledanov, “I merely want you to provide this infrastructure. Now, I believe I was speaking about Scottson.
Frölander paused again for a moment, as he examined the relief on the map. The abrupt threat of war was disturbing, but invigorating- this would have to be among his best projects.
“You simply can’t get straight from the Vitahästar spur to Scottson. You’ve got the highest mountains in the continent right between interior Norrland and the coast.”
Ledanov frowned. ”Do you have any other suggestions?”
Frölander’s practiced eyes ran back and forth over the map, as he built up a mental picture of the region in his head. Hesitatingly, he began.
“A branch line out of Blylgans... or maybe Byström could work. Still, you have to get over the Alyeska Range.”
“You’ve done it before with the Dimmafjorden line.”
Frölander smiled upon realizing that Ledanov was familiar with his past work.
“Yes, well, that was quite the engineering challenge, but we put the line through. How long do I have to put this line through?”
Ledanov’s face was stony serious once again. “Six months.”
“What!? No, six months is barely even enough time to survey a line to the border, I’d need an army of surveyors alone, and we don’t have enough rail workers to put the line through- and do we have enough rail production capacity to even keep pace? I’d need two years!”
“Calm yourself, Mister Frölander, this is a quite do-able task, and in two years time we may need a line all the way to the coast!”
“I’d need upwards of a hundred million kronor to pull something of this scale off in such time!”
“Mister Bailey,” began General Ledanov, “If you please?”
Lester Bailey quoted a number.
The room fell silent. This time, Matthias Frölander was the first to break the silence.
“I... with that... Yes. Yes, I can build you a railway.”
“Will it be ready for the coming summer?”
“For spring.”
Spoiler Reference Map :
Translations and OTL Locations
Västra Scandinavia Järnvägen: West Scandinavia Railroad, a major rail line encompassing much of western Vinland.
Kungliga Försvarsmakten: Royal Armed Forces, the Vinlandic army.
Vitahästar: OTL Whitehorse, Yukon
Fort Strindberg: No OTL equivalent.
Norrahuvudstad: No OTL equivalent, capital of Norrland located at the junction of the OTL Liard and Fort Nelson rivers.
Dimmafjorden: OTL Skagway, Alaska
Vildaflod: OTL Yukon River
Blylgans: OTL Galena, Alaska
Byström: OTL Fairbanks, Alaska
Alyeska Range: Alaska Range
Circuit
Writing Letters
OOC: As I'm playing a power that everyone wants to talk to, I think I should let y'all know what's going on in my personal life as it will effect my NESing. I'm moving to Washington, DC on Saturday for a semester internship, so these next few days I'm going to be rather preoccupied. Plus when I get to DC, I'll have spotty access to the Internet as the apartment does not come with wi-fi, and I'll have to rely on business access for a while. While my roommates and I plan to pitch in together to get wi-fi access for the apartment, for a while I will have sparse access.
States and Territories of the United States of America
January 1st, 1925
States:
1. New Oxford
2. New Brunswick
3. Nova Scotia
4. Maine
5. New Hastings
6. New Hampshire
7. Vermont
8. Massachusetts
9. Rhode Island
10. Connecticut
11. New York
12. New Jersey
13. Pennsylvania
14. Delaware
15. Maryland
16. Virginia
17. North Carolina
18. South Carolina
19. Georgia
20. Ohio
21. Indiana
22. Michigan
23. Superior
24. Illinois
25. Wisconsin
Federal Districts:
26: Colombia
Military Districts:
27. Dakota
28. Kansas
29. Denver
30. Franklin
31. Utah
32. Lee
33. Oregon
Occupied Zones:
34. Scottson
January 1st, 1925
States:
1. New Oxford
2. New Brunswick
3. Nova Scotia
4. Maine
5. New Hastings
6. New Hampshire
7. Vermont
8. Massachusetts
9. Rhode Island
10. Connecticut
11. New York
12. New Jersey
13. Pennsylvania
14. Delaware
15. Maryland
16. Virginia
17. North Carolina
18. South Carolina
19. Georgia
20. Ohio
21. Indiana
22. Michigan
23. Superior
24. Illinois
25. Wisconsin
Federal Districts:
26: Colombia
Military Districts:
27. Dakota
28. Kansas
29. Denver
30. Franklin
31. Utah
32. Lee
33. Oregon
Occupied Zones:
34. Scottson
Quisani
Gaming Person
OCC: So should I take it the "Invade Everyone Who Isn't Us" Initiative, and just hold off on that for a while?
IC:
Signed Emperor Taisho
Sovereign of the Japanese Empire
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
The following is from a title card at the Royal Danish Museum of History
"Archived here for posterity is an authentic flag carried by the forces of the Proletarist Republic of Denmark during the Copenhagen Uprising of 1924. This particular flag was flown from roof of the Folketing (renamed by the Proletarists to the Revolutionary Assembly of the Danish Workers) and was seized by loyalist forces during the Battle of Copenhagen.
The flag was the design of noted Emil Marott, who was a leading influence on the Proletarist Republic. Marott selected the traditional international symbol of Proletarism, the Gear and Wheat, as a symbol of the Proletarist Cause, colouring it red to represent the blood of the People and placing it on a black background to symbolise that no quarter would be given to the enemies of the Revolution."
"These are among the earliest drafts of some of Emil Marott's books. Marott (1885-1924) was one of the premier intellectuals of Danish Proletarism. Discovering it while a young man on the trenches of the Great War, Marott proceeded to publish several texts on the subject which became seminal to the international Proletarist movement. The books above include the first two drafts of On Proletarism and Colonialism, the second draft of Democracy and Labour: A Subversive Relationship, and the earliest draft of Stockholm and London - A Comparison of the Urban Poor.
Due to his prominence within the movement, Marott was elected as first (and only) Syndic of the Proletarist Republic of Denmark. His oversight led to the eviction of loyalist forces from Copenhagen and the urban revolts across the city. Despite his talents as an author and an agitator, he was an utterly useless military leader. He was swiftly sidelined by Scandinavian general Ernst Linder, who was sent to Copenhagen with a Scandinavian contingent, and was largely used as a figurehead and a rubber stamp after the Battle of the Øresund.
Marott was killed in the fighting over the Folketing during the Battle of Copenhagen, allegedly taking up a gun and firing at the attacking loyalist forces himself."
OOC: Honestly, I just wanted to show off how I fixed the Proletarist symbol.
"Archived here for posterity is an authentic flag carried by the forces of the Proletarist Republic of Denmark during the Copenhagen Uprising of 1924. This particular flag was flown from roof of the Folketing (renamed by the Proletarists to the Revolutionary Assembly of the Danish Workers) and was seized by loyalist forces during the Battle of Copenhagen.
The flag was the design of noted Emil Marott, who was a leading influence on the Proletarist Republic. Marott selected the traditional international symbol of Proletarism, the Gear and Wheat, as a symbol of the Proletarist Cause, colouring it red to represent the blood of the People and placing it on a black background to symbolise that no quarter would be given to the enemies of the Revolution."
"These are among the earliest drafts of some of Emil Marott's books. Marott (1885-1924) was one of the premier intellectuals of Danish Proletarism. Discovering it while a young man on the trenches of the Great War, Marott proceeded to publish several texts on the subject which became seminal to the international Proletarist movement. The books above include the first two drafts of On Proletarism and Colonialism, the second draft of Democracy and Labour: A Subversive Relationship, and the earliest draft of Stockholm and London - A Comparison of the Urban Poor.
Due to his prominence within the movement, Marott was elected as first (and only) Syndic of the Proletarist Republic of Denmark. His oversight led to the eviction of loyalist forces from Copenhagen and the urban revolts across the city. Despite his talents as an author and an agitator, he was an utterly useless military leader. He was swiftly sidelined by Scandinavian general Ernst Linder, who was sent to Copenhagen with a Scandinavian contingent, and was largely used as a figurehead and a rubber stamp after the Battle of the Øresund.
Marott was killed in the fighting over the Folketing during the Battle of Copenhagen, allegedly taking up a gun and firing at the attacking loyalist forces himself."
OOC: Honestly, I just wanted to show off how I fixed the Proletarist symbol.
TheLizardKing
Let's talk Michelle.
Interesting TLK! What are Drexler's views on immigrant-based nations, like those found in the Americas? Vinland, for example, has a Swedish-influenced pan-Nordic culture, with overwhelmingly Scando-Russian ancestry. Our language is an odd Swedish dialect loaded with Norwegian, Finnish and Danish influences, and loads of Russian loanwords. Our ethnogenesis is still an ongoing process.
What would Drexler think of the 2% of Vinlanders who are of German heritage, or were even born in German territories, such as the hundreds of thousands of Prussians who fled to our country during that state's purging by the Russians? Would his ideology dictate that a majority-German village in the Västermark should have the ability to declare the Independent Republic of Oljagejser?
I am quite curious!
Well, firstly we must look at the evolution of how states such as Vinland and the United States came to being- German offspring races (Scandinavian and Anglo) arrived, and promptly wiped clean all of the lesser, uncivilized races that inhabited the area. The United States, it's splinter states and Vinland are still ruled (so far as I understand) by those who I would identify of being of a Northern or Western European ancestry. That being established, one would have to take a look further into when exactly one race, or grouping becomes an independent arm of the over all genus, which is fairly hard to pin-point. These changes happen gradually, unless you're in a state of arrested development like we view the nations of Occitania or the FBC. Vinland and the United States has no such issue; the concept of a united Vinlandic or American people is prominent and growing(?).
When it comes to how exactly massive amounts of immigrants fit into the society; Drexler would have to question the assimilation of these immigrants into overall society. If the German residents you referenced promptly took on all the characteristics of their Vinlandic neighbors, learning the language, adopting the prominent religion, partaking in cultural events, and most importantly identifying themselves as being Vinlandic, and not German, or a Deutsch-Vinlandic, then after as little as a generation, the descendants of those immigrants may be fully integrated into Vinlandic society, or (if you'd rather) become fully functioning members of the Vinlandic "tribe" (to be primitive), and shouldn't still be considered Germanic by any means. Now should these same immigrants move to Vinland, accept the customs, become an active part of the Vinlandic population, but retain the idea that they are German, and not Vinlandic, or use the (evil) hyphenation to denote a mixed nationality or race, then they should and could still be considered German, though in reality, Drexler or hardened Drexlerist may consider them in some sort of ethnic purgatory.
In reality, the idea of immigrant states is truly an American phenomena, with the only comparison in Europe being arguably the FBC. The view of many Drexlerist is that the concept and idea of a unified race in the respective countries of North America are still in development, and should be taken on a case by case basis, and have proven that there are always exceptions to rules and theories like that. Essentially, Germany, Czechy-Morava, Italy, the Swiss state, Hungary, Croatia, Scandinavia, etc. is the end result of a series of chemical mixtures. American (well, rather non-Latin American American states) are chemical mixtures still brewing/reacting.
To answer your question about the Independent Republic of Oljagejser, Drexler would have to give a definite "no!", as to whether or not those people should be given the right to be independent, assuming of course they're being afforded similar rights that the rest of the Vinlandic people are being given*. For a TL;DR I'd say "no, because the situations would be very different, and you'd be talking about a small community removed from Vinlandic culture by choice, in comparison to what is viewed as French domination over classical German lands, filled with people still of the German race", if I can be a bit more long winded it would be because the situation in Vinland would be far different than the situation that occurred in Europe. In Europe, Germans remain in ancestral German lands, yet are under French rule. In Vinland, Germans have chosen to immigrate from the mother nation, to live abroad. It would be absurd for them to think they have the right to not assimilate into Vinlandic society, then go as far as to try to declare themselves independent from the Vinlandic state. Now, if these immigrants at any point became the majority to any significant degree in a major part of Vinland, over time, their right and ability to declare independence would become more acceptable, at the least if the Vinlandic government made no effort to try to absorb these communities, and dilute them culturally. Which is something that the French didn't necessarily seem to do. Under Drexlerist thinking, the situation in the FBC would in no ways be comparable to such a situation arising in Vinland for these three reasons;
-The time period involved; Hundreds of years compared to a couple.
-The concept of Ancestral Lands
-Governmental Abuse, or perceived abuse at the hands of the Confederate government
The German citizens in Vinland would of course be more than welcome to remove themselves back to the mother country, or continue to live separated from the Vinlandic community until such divergences become so prolonged and irreconcilable that independence would be necessitated. Of course, this is with the understanding that this is a minor secluded community, and not a major demographic. The idea that the North American states are new branches of Germanic, or near-Germanic races also would play a part in the thinking. Of course this is all with a wink and a nudge, depending on the political situations available. Drexlerist thinking is largely proto, and it will probably take a few more years of formulative thought, and a few other "philosophers" to come up with a more definitive answer to that question.
*If you're going around massacring them, i.e, the Zell Massacre, the situation would of course call for some sort of action to be taken by the German nationals, not for the sake of making it a point to differentiate themselves from other Vinlandics, but based on the thinking that should such a situation occur the government has already made a point to do that very thing. Which is arguably what happened in the FBC; the German citizens in the FBC remained German, while the French remained French, cultural unity past common governance is not existent, or little, from my understandings.
I would also like to make a point that I continued to specify the difference between Latin America and North America because of the perceived racial differences between the two. While the North American nations may continue to be a bastion of immigration, they are still largely Germanic or Northern Europe. Scandinavians, English, Dutch, and even various Eastern European ethnicities are more amendable to melding with one another, then say a Romance/Southern European race. Drexlerist thought says a Spaniard or Italian would be more at home in Rio or Lima, than Boston or Nya Stockholm. The same way a German or Englishman would be much more comfortable in New York or Nya Goteborg, than Santiago or Bogota. The Vinlandic and American "race" whenever they may fully develop (if they ever fully develop) will be a branch of the German race, as offshoots (or perhaps somewhere in the middle) of the Anglo and Scandinavian branches. The Latin American nations meanwhile are to be viewed as being a mixture of Civilized Iberian or Romantic (debate over the root still continues; many think Iberian is a branch of Romance, along with Italian, while others think Iberian culture would be more proper, considering Spanish and Portuguese world prominence over the past few hundred years) and uncivilized Amerindian. So when German men are sitting around in the pubs of Munich, referring to Brazillians as dirty uncivilized half-bloods, they are mostly right. While the concept of racial superiority when referring to other "civilized races" may be non-existent, though mestizos are in a more "grey area". Mestizos, or the equivalent of mestizos may exist in Vinland, and what was the United States, but are certainly less prevalent when compared to South or Latin America. Uncivilized races are to be looked as being uncivilized, mostly due to a lack of clear cut ethnic ancestory, and the fact that they skipped over the tribal formulation stage of development, with the appereance and spread of European cultures and technologies. The idea behind the half Romantic/Iberian and half uncivilized people makes it incredibly difficult to properly apply Drexlerian principles to the politics of South and Latin America, because it's a "half-breed melting pot", and trying to make sense of the various tribes, in relation to one another would be incredibly difficult. At least for now.
So each nation or people come from a race, and offshoot of a main race, or are simply "uncivilized". While the German branch is (fittingly) fairly clear and filled out, when it comes to other groupings, such as where exactly the Slavs fit in (ironically, I would believe that behind closed doors some Drexlerists would place the Slavs in relation to Germans, Scandinavians and Uncivilized North Asian tribes, though it's best to keep that sort of thinking a bit under wraps for the time being), or who the "flag barer" in the Romance races is, is still up to debate, under discussion, or under research.
Regionalist movements are to be expected, as brothers in the same family aren't expected to always get along. But Drexlerian thinking is that eventually cultural and political ties will draw peoples together. German Unification is a prime example of that. If one nation is so political removed that it would be impossible for any sort of unification to ever actually occur, it would be assumed then, that, that race would have branched off on their own. If you split Germany back into Austria and Brandenburg, regardless of the political choices of both nations, the tendency of the people in both to want to reunify, or at the very least relate to each other makes unification fully possible. If Austria removed itself, and its people in such a vastly different political direction, that the differences between Austrian and Brandenburg cultural ideals would be to vast to reconcile, then it would make sense that the Austrian people should be considered wholly different than the German Brandenburgers. To use the situation of the United States; Jacksonia is fairly capable of acting on it's own, in an independent manner, though a Drexlerist would make a point that the definitive identity of an American race had not yet been fully formed. Had it been fully formed, such a simple political split would be far more complicated than it has been. Along with that, the calls for some sort of unification would be much more drastic than they currently are, if I understand the ins and outs of the situation. (which is possible I don't.) Regardless of all that, I would make an argument that the annexation of Jacksonia by the United States would be much easier ethnically, than that of UPRA, political differences aside. Reason being common shared 'Northern European proto-American' (or just American) racial unity. Should the United States attempt to force Jacksonia back under it's fold in a hundred years or so, and the ability of the two peoples to fully integrate be tough, or even impossible, then it stands to reason that the Jacksonian "race", or (more properly) people have become an offshoot of the main American branch of the German race.
It's hard for me to clearly say where a Drexlerist would stand in regards to that. Portugal and Spain are clearly of the Iberian race (though who is an offshoot of who is questionable, unless of course both cultures developed concurrently) the citizens of the Spanish colonies would either be purely Iberian, purely uncivilized, or a mix of the two, which would put them in that grey area. Of course a Spanish-Indian could relate to a Spaniard, while a Spaniard could never relate to an uncivilized Indian. The uncivilized "half-races" bridge the gap, and are to be viewed as beneficial; after all the non-uncivilized race gives you a proper identity and national representation one way or another. That's how Drexlerists can call for self-determination across the civilized people of Europe, but still accept and acknowledge forms of colonialism, at least in some ways. German colonialism under Drexlerist thought is a bit more idealistic than classic imperialism/colonialism, and the concept of the "White Man's Burden" is more along racial lines. It's far better to be a German-uncivilized Indian Ocean islander, than just a Indian Ocean islander. The idea that colonies aren't meant to be held on to for the sake of resources (though it's a bonus!) but instead to provide some form of racial clarity, cultural reformation, and things of that nature. So I could argue that the Phoenxism could work with Drexlerism, depending on how precisely we both went about it.
As I said, the idea is that no race is vastly superior to other races, though others are "better" at some things than others. (it should be noted that these things are largely arbitrary) The only culture that should be considered "inferior" would be uncivilized cultures. And each race or culture, save for uncivilized can fall under the umbrella of another "Prime Race", German being the main example.
To better situate where exactly a race would fall, I have taken to sort of using a variation of the stream ordering method in Physical Geography/Environmental Sciences. Instead of having two streams come together to form a second order stream, the break off of a distinct group due to time, geography or migration would be noticed. Example being the Danes. The Danes, under Drexlerist thought would be considered a 3rd order Germanic race. The 2nd order, being Scandinavian, the 1st being German. Half uncivilized Danes, would then be an uncivilized 4th order Germanic race. Things get interesting when you get to a race like the Anglos, which would be considered a mixture of a 2nd order German race, with a 4th order Iberian/Romantic Race, the Normans. The disparity between the German race and the Anglo race lies primarily with the influence of the Normans on English development. Under Drexlerist though, had it not been for that bit of outside racial influence, the English may very well remain a 1st order Germanic race, or a full 2nd order Germanic race like the Scandinavians. Now, I'll admit this part I haven't entirely fleshed out, and it's still largely a work in progress, but you can at least see my thought process with that. The further away you get from your main "root", of course the less affiliated culturally you may feel or actually be from the nation in question. Denmark has a similar northern European culture to Germany, based off of the fact that Denmark is a 3rd order German nation, but ultimately has more in common to Scandinavia and Danish-uncivilized races. Britain clearly has much more culturally in common to Germany than it does the Confederation, or any of the "French races" (which are much loser in this TL, due to a lack of solid French state), but is still ultimately different.
Really though, Drexlerist thought isn't solid, due in part to me still fleshing aspects of it out, but also due to the fact it isn't supposed to be solid. Any ideas that use the ideas of race in such a prolific manner are obviously incorrect in core reasons, but it isn't entirely unfeasible that the people in this timeline may be a bit more susceptible to it, especially with the marginalization of nationalism in Europe throughout the 19th century, and the lack of a true liberal revolution to any major degree.
Angst
Rambling and inconsistent
OOC: Oh god what a lot of juicy TTL goodness.
And that flag is sexy.
And that flag is sexy.
Blue Bacon 3
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
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- 401
To: Portugal
From: New Zealand
We most humbly and graciously request the hand of a Portuguese Princess and your dynastic name.
- King Marcus I
From: New Zealand
We most humbly and graciously request the hand of a Portuguese Princess and your dynastic name.
- King Marcus I
ZeletDude
The Lion
- Joined
- Aug 16, 2009
- Messages
- 5,490
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
3rd Order? I resent that. Denmark is clearly first order. It introduced Germanicness to the Germans.
With regards to Phoenix and Drexler colonialism, I think the major difference between the two is that in de Rivera's ideal Culture-State, India or North Africa weren't actually colonies. They would have been integral parts of Iberia, because Iberians have come to them and uplifted them to lofty Iberianism and ergo made them as Iberian as Madrid. By Phoenix logic, America would eventually unify with Britain, Vinland with Scandinavia and Denmark,
By contrast, Brazil and Latin America had abandoned their Iberian roots to mix with the Natives (who were the absolute lowest Culture on the totem pole.) and were therefore a new, non-Iberian and lower Culture Mixing with another Culture, by interbreeding (not that didn't happen in India, but I'll get to this) would have created a new independent culture, that may have been uplifted or the opposite depending on the cultures mixing.
Why did this happen in Brazil and not India? Who knows, because Phoenixism is an ideology invented by a ruthless opportunist (both in an IC and OOC sense - de Rivera's only real ideological aim was the restoration of the aristocracy's place in Spanish society pre 1863, and everything else was basically a path to that) to justify his foreign policy aims, and thats it. But hey, its something to think about, and even if de Rivera is dead and Phoenixism will forever be the exclusive domain of this TL's equivalent of internet anarchists, I like to think they were inspired by a similar thing.
I think the really interesting thing about this history is that the Romantic ideal of nationalist unification seems actually inevitable. There's been 7 Romantic national unions so far (Italy, Russia, the FBC*, Italy again, Germany, the United Netherlands and lately Rome which unified its own territory under the banner of Roman Unification) and more importantly, the one time a nationalist unification was halted it came back 50 years later.
To scholars in this period, a national unification must seem inevitable, because its happened so often and ethnic nationalism just keeps coming back. When countries get forcefully broken apart like Rome, they end up retaking their territory even after peace has been signed and the civil war is over, because people in Pontus wanted to be a part of the Roman union.
So stuff like Drexler's brand of nationalism or Phoenixism becomes popular, because its seen as literally inevitable. For all the Confederations' talk about ending Nationalism and interethnic confederation, its still a nationalist union itself. One with significant rights for its minorities, sure, but it still is one, and the current war really is a war of nationalism.
Anyway, i'm not sure how much of this is cogent, but I sure enjoyed banging it out.
*which is a Nationalist union, since it united as a union of ethnically French-countries and was pushing French Nationalism for years before that. Its less Austria-Hungary as it is 1880s Germany - a nationalist union with significant amounts of other minorities on the fringes (i.e. Poles in German Prussia, Germans and Italians in Confederation Burgundy).
ED: Black on red should be the international flag for everything.
Also I was opposed to the revolution, and I wouldn't have got to use it for long because I would have been annexed by Scandinavia in two years.
With regards to Phoenix and Drexler colonialism, I think the major difference between the two is that in de Rivera's ideal Culture-State, India or North Africa weren't actually colonies. They would have been integral parts of Iberia, because Iberians have come to them and uplifted them to lofty Iberianism and ergo made them as Iberian as Madrid. By Phoenix logic, America would eventually unify with Britain, Vinland with Scandinavia and Denmark,
By contrast, Brazil and Latin America had abandoned their Iberian roots to mix with the Natives (who were the absolute lowest Culture on the totem pole.) and were therefore a new, non-Iberian and lower Culture Mixing with another Culture, by interbreeding (not that didn't happen in India, but I'll get to this) would have created a new independent culture, that may have been uplifted or the opposite depending on the cultures mixing.
Why did this happen in Brazil and not India? Who knows, because Phoenixism is an ideology invented by a ruthless opportunist (both in an IC and OOC sense - de Rivera's only real ideological aim was the restoration of the aristocracy's place in Spanish society pre 1863, and everything else was basically a path to that) to justify his foreign policy aims, and thats it. But hey, its something to think about, and even if de Rivera is dead and Phoenixism will forever be the exclusive domain of this TL's equivalent of internet anarchists, I like to think they were inspired by a similar thing.
I think the really interesting thing about this history is that the Romantic ideal of nationalist unification seems actually inevitable. There's been 7 Romantic national unions so far (Italy, Russia, the FBC*, Italy again, Germany, the United Netherlands and lately Rome which unified its own territory under the banner of Roman Unification) and more importantly, the one time a nationalist unification was halted it came back 50 years later.
To scholars in this period, a national unification must seem inevitable, because its happened so often and ethnic nationalism just keeps coming back. When countries get forcefully broken apart like Rome, they end up retaking their territory even after peace has been signed and the civil war is over, because people in Pontus wanted to be a part of the Roman union.
So stuff like Drexler's brand of nationalism or Phoenixism becomes popular, because its seen as literally inevitable. For all the Confederations' talk about ending Nationalism and interethnic confederation, its still a nationalist union itself. One with significant rights for its minorities, sure, but it still is one, and the current war really is a war of nationalism.
Anyway, i'm not sure how much of this is cogent, but I sure enjoyed banging it out.
*which is a Nationalist union, since it united as a union of ethnically French-countries and was pushing French Nationalism for years before that. Its less Austria-Hungary as it is 1880s Germany - a nationalist union with significant amounts of other minorities on the fringes (i.e. Poles in German Prussia, Germans and Italians in Confederation Burgundy).
ED: Black on red should be the international flag for everything.
Also I was opposed to the revolution, and I wouldn't have got to use it for long because I would have been annexed by Scandinavia in two years.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
Brazil is not just Iberian-Native mixes. We have huge populations of English, German and others. Stop forcing your OTL views on TTL South America!
ChiefDesigner
Sunset Emperor
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- Mar 5, 2007
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- 761
Actually, EQ's map is not quite accurate--in the Treaty of Atlanta, the US actually ceded Pennsylvania south of the Allegheny-Appalachian line - the UPRA currently holds both Harrisburg and two-thirds of Pittsburgh.
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Oh I know that, and so does (did?) de Rivera. Its just that he needed a reason why Brazil is Spain's sworn enemy and should be crushed between our bootstraps as opposed to a brother nation which should be brought into the Culture-state.
And lets face it, calling Brazil a bunch of upstart inferior mesitzos sits pretty well with the Spanish TTL anyway.
Blue Bacon 3
Prince
- Joined
- Jun 10, 2012
- Messages
- 401
How long have Vinnish and American settlers been in the areas of Aisuyochi held by Japan prior to the Successor State Wars? There is an argument as to the American lands that were seized and bought respectively by Japan and Vinland, though Scottsonian settlers ceaselessly attacked Japanese settlements and resettled voluntarily after Japan's seizure, it cannot be denied the seizure was accomplished by force.
However there should not even be an argument as regards the parts of Aisuyochi held from before the Successor State Wars, 50 years of history or not, as the Japanese were the first to settle the land, excepting the natives. That land is just as Japanese as the Vinnish parts held before the War of the Successor States are Vinnish, unless Vinland believes Japan and Vinland should both turn over vast tracts of land to the Inuits. Much could indeed be said of the short history of Aisuyochi-Scottson, New Zealand, Hollandia and even the Americas in general.
And if Vinland does not recognize the land Japan seized from the USA as Japan's legal territory then it can only be generously said to have held that land in stewardship or less generously be said to have engaged in legitimizing the Japanese actions out of a desire to buy fenced goods. Why is Vinland not offering to sell the land it bought from Japan to the Second Union?
And since Vinland does not believe in the Japanese casus belli and wished to defend the Netherlands, then why did it's fleet not contribute to the battle?
~ Marcus I
There aren't any, this war is not based around the legitimacy of Japan's claim, sacrificing our small fleet is not the best contribution that we can make to the military effort, and you don't know what our intentions are regarding the borders of Scottson, and you are apparently unaware of why the borders changed in the first place. Now why don't you go and declare and immediately rescind your declaration of war on someone again? 
