Brave New World's 9 new Civs

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PerceeP927 said:
I mean that's for one more expansion, which is all I can see them doing, because after that it becomes much less profitable for them. They can't keep including new features to justify it, they can't find speakers of every dead language from hunter gatherer indigenous tribes that you people want to put next to empires the likes of England, Japan, Spain, China, whatever...
I mean really, to justify another expansion you'd have to cut half of my list and hold out on it until the next one to spread out the civs. An expansion with what?

Olmec
Inuit
Ukraine
Romania
Manchu
...

it starts to become a joke.
Click to expand...

It's funny that my brother and I had a discussion about this last night after the Venice/Shoshone announcement. To us, we are not really interested in new civs each new xpac-- sure, we always seem to like 2-3 new civs that they come up with, but ultimately, we could care less about some random minor civ that Firaxis adds to appease some segment of e civ player community. Rather, we are more interested in actual changes to game mechanics, like espionage/religion in GK and trading/tourism in BNW. I suppose that this might be it for CiV5 expansions, so I guess you Inuit/Eskimo fans are left out yet again in civ representation. :(
 
iRule said:
I don't know if you're referring to me or the whole Indian discussion that precedes my post, but either way, I think we can drop that argument as this game was never really about civilizations...

There are no Portuguese, English, Spanish, French, American, Russian, etc. (actually there may be a Chinese, for example) civilizations. If this game was really about civilizations we'd probably have, I don't know, the Western Christian civilization... the Muslim civilization... the Eastern Orthodox civilization... the Chinese civilization, and so on.

Not that religions really matter these days, for those distinctions, but it's ultimately a cultural factor - and culture used to be/is driven by religion.
Click to expand...

I'm referring to the calls for Bolivar's republic.
 
Most people dismiss it as stupid anyway
 
Menzies said:
Every Civilization is too complex to represent with one snapshot. The issue is that the effort to create a leader screen is so great in the current version that they are better off adding more Civilizations than more leaders. For each extra leader they added this version, that would have been one less Civilization. Personally I'd prefer 43+ Civs to 30 Civs and some extra leaders. That's the nature of the game though, the Civilizations are for flavour.
Click to expand...

That sounds like civ 4 talk to me. :p It could mean a few civs have 2 separate UA's to choose from, or even 2 separate sets of unique stuff within a civilization. Although it is hard to have one leader represent a whole nation throughout its time, I reckon it's the leader that's the flavour, and not the civilization.
 
sendos said:
That sounds like civ 4 talk to me. :p It could mean a few civs have 2 separate UA's to choose from, or even 2 separate sets of unique stuff within a civilization. Although it is hard to have one leader represent a whole nation throughout its time, I reckon it's the leader that's the flavour, and not the civilization.
Click to expand...

No, it's the leader's UA (and UB, UU, etc.) that is the flavor, not the 4000 year old "person".
 
In an effort to do something different, I’m going to do more than simply post a list of suggested of Civs. Although, for the full list that I will probably eventually include, click on the following:
Spoiler Full List :

Mississippians
Haida
Kongo
Normans
Vietnam
Khmer
Israel
Sumeria
(I Still Really Want to Say Pueblo Even Though I Know it Won’t Be Them)


However, I decided to spice things up a bit and use pictures.

First up:
The Mississippians
MississippianLogo_zpse53c62a0.jpg

Colors TBD, but this version of the Great Horned Serpent appears to be specifically associated with Cahokia and is thought to have served as a warning that you are about to enter Cahokian territory. To me, that’s as close to a flag as you’re likely to get.

Cahokia_zps9cd61721.jpg


The Mississippians are an obvious choice as possibly the most complex Native American society before Columbus.

Rest of the details below the spoiler tags.

Spoiler Mississippians :

Leader: Tuskaloosa
Tuskaloosa_zps5a35ed9b.jpg


The Mississippians themselves are very significant, but a leader is always a bit problematic. I decided to compromise and go with a known leader, just not one who ruled Cahokia. He is famous for being encountered by Cortez during his expeditions. He was obviously a very important Chief and, after being captured by the Spanish, he was still able to inspire a considerable force from the surrounding area to attempt his rescue.

His background art would look something like this:
MississippianBackground_zpse9ceaa18.jpg

I decided to avoid Cahokia for accuracy (since Tuskaloosa didn’t live there), but Cahokia would still be the capital (because it should be).

Unique Unit: Falcon Warrior
FalconWarrior_zps92fc553c.jpg

Replaces Spearman. Can be purchased by faith and costs half as much as a spearman would cost to purchase with faith.
I wanted something associated with the Southeastern Ceremonial Cult (sometimes referred to as the Southern Death Cult) and the Falcon Warrior/Bird Man struck me as appropriate. Along with the Great Serpent, the Falcon is an important motif in their religion. It appears to have been a warlike religion.

Unique Building: Mound
Mound_zps47fdb45b.jpg

Replaces walls. +1 food +1 faith in addition to defensive bonuses.
I’m not entirely happy with this. For starters, I think there’s a good argument that “Mound-Builders” should be a UA. The food and faith is light, but it’s a maintenance free building that stacks with Shrines and granaries, so it’s not too bad.

Unique Ability: TBD


Next is:
The Haida
HaidaLogo_zps3f68fc04.jpg

This is the modern Haida flag. Obviously, the colors would have to change, but it’s still pretty cool.

HaidaBackground_zps6d2f3b22.jpg


The Haida were a Pacific Northwest tribe. They probably aren’t the only one who could be considered, but they were probably the most warlike. They have been referred to as the Vikings of the Pacific Northwest, which has a nice ring to it. The Haida lived in an extremely fertile area so they were able to have a complex urban society even as a hunters and gatherers. They’re also noteworthy for their practice of slavery, which was relatively uncommon north of the Rio Grande.

The rest is in spoiler tags
Spoiler Haida info :

Leader: Koyah
Koyah_zps3d078f9c.jpg

That is obviously not really Koyah. If anything, it’s probably based on this picture. He would have this blanket and hat as well. There are no drawings of Koyah, which makes representation a bit difficult. However, he still strikes me as the most significant Haida leader. He features prominently in histories written by fur traders. Since he had a habit of attacking them, they did not refer to him fondly (they referred to him as a “little diminutive savage looking fellow”). He was involved in more attacks on trading vessels than any other chief. This link has quite a few more details about his battles.

The Background would be one of these two pics that show canoes, water, pine trees, and Totem Poles. Essentially, the Canadian version of Kamehameha, plus Totem Poles.

AltHaidaBackground_zps216c43d1.jpg

Unique Unit: War Canoe
WarCanoe_zpse94c9431.jpg

Here is an alternate version where the people have clothes:
CanoeClothes_zpsa9706253.jpg


Replaces Trireme. Combat bonus when attacking cities. Free Worker when a city is captured.
The ideas are obviously tentative. I wanted to represent their raiding abilities and the fact that they practiced slavery.

Unique Building: Totem Pole
TotemPole_zps33bc6877.jpg

Replaces Monument. +1 food in addition to the normal culture.
I was debating whether to make it two food or not. Since they’re relatively cheap and you can build them from the beginning, I thought this was appropriate. Totem Poles are strongly associated with the region. The food is because of the fertility even without agriculture.

Unique Ability: Potlach
Receive culture whenever you give a gift to a City-State or aid to a civ requested from a civ you have a Declaration of Friendship with.
Potlach was an important part of the culture of Indian tribes in this area. Essentially, it’s a practice of lavish gift-giving. Europeans tried to ban the practice because they considered it wasteful. I thought about just making it a CS gift-giving bonus, but I figured this would be nice to those who have long suffered by having a Civ with a DoF ask for help. It’s obviously tentative either way.

Spoiler City List :

Ninstints
Masset (Atewaas, Jaahguhl, and Kayung)
Kiusta
Kung
Yan
Hiellan
Skidegate
Cha'atl
Haina
Kaisun
Cumshewa
Skedans or Koona
Tanu
Hlk'yah GaawGa
Klinkwan
Sukkwan
Howkan
Kasaan
Tlell
Dadens




The Pueblo are a longshot, but I thought I’d give my ideas and show pictures. I’m borrowing far more heavily from Firaxis here (including leader art).

Spoiler Pueblo Ideas :

PuebloLogo_zps2584d32a.jpg


Leader: Popé
Popeacute_zps999abad2.jpg


Background would likely be something to do with a Mesa:
PuebloBackground_zps1ac78d41.jpg


Unique Unit: Buffalo Dancer
BuffaloDancer_zps767bef3d.jpg

I don’t know much about them except that they’re associated with the Pueblo and look cool. I don’t have any suggested stats.

Unique Building: Kiva
Kiva_zps4754ee39.jpg

Kiva is a ceremonial building, which would likely replace the Shrine.

Unique Ability: Anasazi Cliff Dwellers
+100% defensive bonus and additional culture to cities settled next to mountains. +25% defensive bonus to all other cities.
I’m borrowing from Firaxis’s idea, which was a bit vague. I added the +25% defensive bonus to other cities to make the ability a little more commonly used. Firaxis also said that cities founded next to mountains would have unique city art where the city was built into the mountain, like this:
CliffDwellers_zpsbc012ffc.jpg



Anyway, those are my thoughts. Thought I’d try to stand out from the crowd ;)
 
you said war canoe replaces galley, which is a barbarian unit. do you mean trireme?
 
Thanks. I didn't know much about the Haida before I started (they've been suggested before, but that's it). They're really fascinating.

PerceeP927 said:
you said war canoe replaces galley, which is a barbarian unit. do you mean trireme?
Click to expand...

Sorry, I meant Trireme. I'll edit my post.
 
Nice ideas. The Haida have been growing on me, indeed, as I am impressed by their ability to amass a relatively large population and a surplus of food without really relying on agriculture. I still want other native American groups in before them, but I can definitely see the case for them.
 
In Southeast Asia, Khmer and Vietnam are the two most popular civs and thus stand the best chance to make it in Civ. But a few people have concerns about Khmer overlapping with Siam while others have concerns about Vietnam not holding a candle to Khmer.

There is one Southeast Asian powerhouse with zero controversy. Instead of lecturing with history, I'll let the photos speak for itself.

Behold, the mighty PAGAN KINGDOM (Burma/Myanmar), one of the great giants to have walked the lands of mainland Asia:

Spoiler :
Burma_Myanmar018-2.jpg


burma-jock-montgomery-mym-02-2000-pano.jpg


thousand-temples-bagan.jpg


18059_14-15_Chinthe_Pagan_uxga.jpg


The legendary Anawrahta, leader of the Pagan

Spoiler :
220px-Pyinoolwin_--_DSA_Anawrahta.JPG


Anawrahta-9f0c3.gif


Map of their geography. As you can see, they dominated in a hotly-contested region:

Spoiler :
Pagan_Kingdom.jpg
 
I also Like the idea of Mississipians ^^
Infinite possibilities:
From the Americas:
Mississipians/Inuits/Cherokee/Haida/Pueblo/Canada/Argentina/Navajo/Powathan/Shawnee...
Asia/Oceania:
Khmer/Vietnam/Australia/Tibet/Nepal/Burma
Africa:
Kongo/Ashanti/Swahili/Kilwa/Zimbabwe/Nubia/Mali/Gana/Kanen-Bornu/Benin...
Middle East:
Sumeria/Akkads/Hittittes/Israel/Phoenicia
Europe:
Servia/Hungary/Bulgaria/Silk road civ's/Wallachia/Italy/Ukraine/Schythia/Czech/Romania/Armenia...
 
@seancolorado: Pretty pics there with Burma. I still prefer Khmer or 'Nam over Burma, but I won't deny that Burma is underrated and deserves its place.


Maybe I should do a pretty pic spam for 'Nam too. :p
 
seancolorado said:
In Southeast Asia, Khmer and Vietnam are the two most popular civs and thus stand the best chance to make it in Civ. But a few people have concerns about Khmer overlapping with Siam while others have concerns about Vietnam not holding a candle to Khmer.

There is one Southeast Asian powerhouse with zero controversy. Instead of lecturing with history, I'll let the photos speak for itself.

Behold, the mighty PAGAN KINGDOM (Burma/Myanmar), one of the great giants to have walked the lands of mainland Asia:

Spoiler :
Burma_Myanmar018-2.jpg


burma-jock-montgomery-mym-02-2000-pano.jpg


thousand-temples-bagan.jpg


18059_14-15_Chinthe_Pagan_uxga.jpg


The legendary Anawrahta, leader of the Pagan

Spoiler :
220px-Pyinoolwin_--_DSA_Anawrahta.JPG


Anawrahta-9f0c3.gif


Map of their geography. As you can see, they dominated in a hotly-contested region:

Spoiler :
Pagan_Kingdom.jpg
Click to expand...

Burma rarely gets enough love on these forums but they would be a great civ to include. Southeast Asia is finally starting to get some representation, I wouldn't be surprised if we see Burma/Vietnam in the next civ game/expansion as new civs
 
Gucumatz said:
Burma rarely gets enough love on these forums but they would be a great civ to include. Southeast Asia is finally starting to get some representation, I wouldn't be surprised if we see Burma/Vietnam in the next civ game/expansion as new civs
Click to expand...

Indeed. :)

I posted the photos because I hope people who don't know them at least take a quick look - you know, for a visual feel of their kingdom.

Just trying to put a face to the name people hear but ignore. They can still ignore, but at least they will ignore knowing what they are ignoring
 
Very cool pics. I think, with Pagan, the biggest problem I have with them is just that they look like Pagan (as in the religious thing) ;)

Any idea about units, etc.?
 
Louis XXIV said:
Very cool pics. I think, with Pagan, the biggest problem I have with them is just that they look like Pagan (as in the religious thing) ;)

Any idea about units, etc.?
Click to expand...

Here's a few suggestions from me, some taken from this Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Burmese_Army

- Shan Raider: The Shan peoples raided quite a bit in Burmese history, and although to my knowledge they don't make up the majority of the Burmese population, they were quite important in Burmses history. Could be some medieval infantry UU. Could also be a Musketman UU, as the Shan learned quickly how to utilize muskets in warfare.
- Cassay Cavalry: Cavalry recruited from Manipuri in India (I think). They were an eleite branch of the Burmese army in the 1700s. Cavalry replacement (obviously), or Lancer.
- Sagaing Htaungthin: Apparently the normal cavalry branch of the medieval and early modern Burmese Army.
- Portuguese/Dutch/Whatever Mercenary Cannon person: Dunno what to call this, but the Burmese used European (and Muslim) mercenaries to build their artillery regiments in the early modern era.
-
 
Louis XXIV said:
Very cool pics. I think, with Pagan, the biggest problem I have with them is just that they look like Pagan (as in the religious thing) ;)

Any idea about units, etc.?
Click to expand...

Someone from Burma would be better off answering this question. But here are some quick ideas:

UU:

-Burmese Frontline Elephant replacing Knight. Gains promotion where enemies cannot heal within x amount of tiles of Elephant. (Reflects ability of elephant to cripple enemy battle plans)

-Burmese Royal Horseman replacing Lancer. Extra combat strength and movement in jungles. Extra defense in jungles within borders (Reflects ability of Burma to fight in tricky conditions)

UB:

-Burmese workshop replacing Workshop. Gives culture boost, and maybe something relating to the new city flipping mechanic. (This would reflect importance of architecture as cultural barometer. Everything the Pagan Kingdom built had deep meaning and influence, and they had their workers outstanding attention to detail to thank for this, as you can see in the photos above)

-Burmese Stupa replacing Temple. Takes longer to build than regular. Receives additional faith. (I don't really know. Stupas were everywhere so makes sense)
 
Louis XXIV said:
First up:
The Mississippians
MississippianLogo_zpse53c62a0.jpg

Colors TBD, but this version of the Great Horned Serpent appears to be specifically associated with Cahokia and is thought to have served as a warning that you are about to enter Cahokian territory. To me, that’s as close to a flag as you’re likely to get.

Cahokia_zps9cd61721.jpg


The Mississippians are an obvious choice as possibly the most complex Native American society before Columbus.

Rest of the details below the spoiler tags.

Spoiler Mississippians :

Leader: Tuskaloosa
Tuskaloosa_zps5a35ed9b.jpg


The Mississippians themselves are very significant, but a leader is always a bit problematic. I decided to compromise and go with a known leader, just not one who ruled Cahokia. He is famous for being encountered by Cortez during his expeditions. He was obviously a very important Chief and, after being captured by the Spanish, he was still able to inspire a considerable force from the surrounding area to attempt his rescue.

His background art would look something like this:
MississippianBackground_zpse9ceaa18.jpg

I decided to avoid Cahokia for accuracy (since Tuskaloosa didn’t live there), but Cahokia would still be the capital (because it should be).

Unique Unit: Falcon Warrior
FalconWarrior_zps92fc553c.jpg

Replaces Spearman. Can be purchased by faith and costs half as much as a spearman would cost to purchase with faith.
I wanted something associated with the Southeastern Ceremonial Cult (sometimes referred to as the Southern Death Cult) and the Falcon Warrior/Bird Man struck me as appropriate. Along with the Great Serpent, the Falcon is an important motif in their religion. It appears to have been a warlike religion.

Unique Building: Mound
Mound_zps47fdb45b.jpg

Replaces walls. +1 food +1 faith in addition to defensive bonuses.
I’m not entirely happy with this. For starters, I think there’s a good argument that “Mound-Builders” should be a UA. The food and faith is light, but it’s a maintenance free building that stacks with Shrines and granaries, so it’s not too bad.

Unique Ability: TBD
Click to expand...

These fellas sound really cool. Didn't know much about them till I read this, then google'd them just now
 
There UA could have to do something with capturing enemy units and making them turn into your unique unit. Kinda like this
 
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