Foreign Policy: The CivPlayers League

2metraninja said:

But where the plural "s" goes? Like "One German" and "Many Germans"?

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2metraninja said:

Do we want to try to bring the issue about attacking French to ot4e again? At the last time I spoke with him about this, he was almost ready to break (after all his reasoning against, he said: "OK, I will think about it again"). If he is not hesitant to whip an army now, maybe he will change his opinion?

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2metraninja said:

In my opinion he did not wanted to cripple CivFR to not leave us and RB the only 2 superpowers on the map. I am almost sure he will count on them to possibly form a block to balance us after RB are no longer big factor.

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Ot4e: hi
2metraninja: hi
2metraninja: whats up
Ot4e: wanted to say, that frenchie built several ha recently
Ot4e: and they are roading to zulus from their western city
Ot4e: they dont seem to have a single baracks though
2metraninja: yes, we figured out that they build HAs and was wondering why if they were to get Guilds soon
Ot4e: they got it this turn
2metraninja: oh, thanks for the barrack info, we did not checked that, but we were confident they were nowhere near ready for actual war and were just trying the usual tactic they do the whole game - doing what they intend while simulating negotiations.
2metraninja: yes, MZ told me about their Guilds
2metraninja: which can be or can be not directly connected to our war, as Guilds is on the Banking path
2metraninja: do they build Universities btw?
Ot4e: they were teching guilds before war
Ot4e: they seemed to switch for 1 turn for drama, but changed back
2metraninja: aha, that is great bit of info
Ot4e: they dont have education
2metraninja: I see
2metraninja: PP, but no Edu...
Ot4e: how can they build universities? )
2metraninja: I missed that part
2metraninja: as we were not much interested in them till very recently
2metraninja: and I dont know, they might had found a way around that little inconvenience of having no Education and still wanted to build unis. Just as they not had army and wanted to conquer 3/4 of Zulu
Ot4e: you should leave zulu
Ot4e: they can seriously beat them
Ot4e: impi stack could be big surprise for frenchies
2metraninja: Zulus had already sold out their land to French sadly
2metraninja: sad part is, Spaniards will hate us to the guts because they attacked us and now we come for our revenge, but will leave empty cities for the French to take without even lifting a finger
Ot4e: are you sure?
2metraninja: yes, they told us
2metraninja: Spaniards
Ot4e: why?
Ot4e: why tell you?
Ot4e: why do so?
2metraninja: you would had saw they are not the most reasonable guys around if you had the chance to talk with them as much as we do
2metraninja: maybe in attempt to slow us down and discourage us, I dont know
Ot4e: no we havent talk at all, but it is mysterious that they talk to you and are proud of their bad sportsmanship
2metraninja: they tried to trick us by saying they might consider doing the same favor to us and they might consider attacking French instead of us, if we give them 3 turns cease-fire so they can "think" abiout it (just enough to get HBR and produce some WEs and to let French arrive)
Ot4e: did you tell em that serious guys might be not willing to take them into the game any more?
2metraninja: when we did not gave them cease-fire they said they accepted to make this favor to the French
2metraninja: also, the initial demands of the French to us was giving away they will just go there and simply TAKE half Zulu cities without them suggesting they expect any dificulties in doing so, while we knew Zulus have like 30 units mixed stack and could whip some 10 more.
2metraninja: they were not suggesting we cooperate, but rather telling us what they will TAKE while we fight the Zulus
2metraninja: no way French could even hope of taking those cities with their 10 ancient units before us with our top-of-the-pops army 60 units strong can take them if they were expecting the zulu units to be divided equally.
Ot4e: well I think frenchie army of 6 HA with no promotions is in a big trouble
Ot4e: consider getting some pikes there and they will not be able to do
2metraninja: I am afraid they will raze empty Zulu cities just to spite us
2metraninja: at least 1 they can reach before us
Ot4e: greedy frenchies?
Ot4e: i doubt
2metraninja: hahah
2metraninja: good one
2metraninja: but they are not fools either
2metraninja: they know that we have 5 times stronger army than them
2metraninja: and they cant defend outside of their mainland
2metraninja: Inao must be a veteran. he gave isntructions to RB guys about ports in Civ
Ot4e: he is decent time puller
Ot4e: that's what i can say
2metraninja: then he must be really giving us special attention lately as he was waiting online to get me online to deliver his demands and then he followed by an e-mail in less than 12 hours when we did not responded to them till then
2metraninja: obviously the guy can act quick if it is in his interest
Ot4e: are they still sending you demands?
2metraninja: not anymore
2metraninja: since we answered their last with declaration of war
2metraninja: let us finish off the zulus and see how the map and the ratio of powers look at the moment and we will decide what to do
Ot4e: lets see
2metraninja: did they said something to you since then?
Ot4e: no
Ot4e: but they will have to answer
2metraninja: you asked them what?
Ot4e: i asked about details of their "military supplies"
Ot4e: before you declared war
2metraninja: ah, good one
Ot4e: we were talking with you and you convinced me that it is time to request their specification
Ot4e: right before you declared war to them
2metraninja: just in time I guess
2metraninja: so it is easy to say: "We will give help" and then send 3-4 units in 30 turns
2metraninja: I've seen that
Ot4e: this will be shame
2metraninja: yes, but it seems the shame is the last thing we can acuse the French, so better we know upfront what they will do and try to adapt instead of relying on them and then be disappointed in the most crucial moment
2metraninja: do you have city visibility on them?
Ot4e: we see some
2metraninja: do they build wealth?
Ot4e: no production
2metraninja: because we were told they make 750 gpt
Ot4e: they make more
2metraninja: which is quite a lot
Ot4e: did you see they turned into golden age?
2metraninja: yes, yes
2metraninja: we do, but still...
Ot4e: they got 1st gnp with 900+ while teching guilds
Ot4e: last turn i mean
Ot4e: 750 now because they didnt pick tech i think
Ot4e: i dont see their production anywhere
Ot4e: but see city radius in some cities
Ot4e: they were producing HA
2metraninja: is it 750 gold per turn or it is 750 GNP btw?
Ot4e: GNP
2metraninja: MZ insists it is gpt
Ot4e: i never seen them to put gpt
Ot4e: may be he noticed
Ot4e: when he was in game with them
Ot4e: about 750 it is impossible
Ot4e: do you have chat with him right now?
Ot4e: how did we disband our 3-sided room?
Ot4e: the leader had 750 GNP at the beginning of the turn
Ot4e: french has at least 200-250 culture I believe
[ | Edited 12:21:20] Ot4e: so they cant produce more than 500 imho
2metraninja: yes, he is online
Ot4e: btw we could make chat in google talk
Ot4e: it is very simple
Ot4e: i have "add people" option
Ot4e: no idea why you couldnt find it
2metraninja: lol
2metraninja: I saw it
2metraninja: I am getting old and hardly used with new technologies
2metraninja: if French are indeed doing 750 gpt, then they are the real enemy I am afraid
2metraninja: RB will not be able to do that in 20 turns
Ot4e: i am sure they dont
Ot4e: they have strong economy anyway
Ot4e: but 750 gpt is weird
2metraninja: they have relatively the same empire as RB and RB were able to do ~ 400 gpt in GA. Why not French do 500 gpt with PP now, 15 turns after RB GA is over? and putting 250 hammers in wealth... not that impossible
Ot4e: their food graphs is not big
Ot4e: how much pop do they have at your evaluation?
2metraninja: yes, same as ours after we drafted and whipped down to 3-4
2metraninja: I cant really tell, but they must have 18-19 cities. half of them size 15-18
2metraninja: their food is not much big because they work cottages
Ot4e: not this would give much more food
2metraninja: I am trying to get a decent pics from French lands from last few turns
Ot4e: their core is big, but other cities must be small
2metraninja: MIssclick - 18
Ot4e: 19
2metraninja: Tirecul - east of it - 11
2metraninja: west of it*
2metraninja: next city
Ot4e: we see the same cities
Ot4e: others are small, because they dont have much pop overall
Ot4e: much pop result in much food
Ot4e: you cant change it
Ot4e: even with cottage
2metraninja: yes, 2 food/pop average
2metraninja: they will be at rifles in 10 if they keep this scary 750 gpt
Ot4e: they are the closest civ to rifles, this is true
2metraninja: MZ is sure about it. I asked for printscreen and he sad he have one at home
Ot4e: nothing to fear about imho
2metraninja: it is early to fear, but to be put on alarm - definitely
Ot4e: i still think we will kick them easily
2metraninja: RB came to talk us in attacking others than them again. they mentioned CivFR in the same conversation few times
Ot4e: funny
2metraninja: I played only 1 ironman, so I cant really tell, but one of my lieutenants told me he saw such play - put everything in cottages and tech to point where you can switch to Universa Suffrage and start buying like mad
2metraninja: units
2metraninja: and overwhelm with numbers
2metraninja: what is your opinion on French play? sounds familiar?
Ot4e: exactly what you say
Ot4e: seen several times in ironman
2metraninja: isnt US money-rush too expensive?
Ot4e: quite good strategy
Ot4e: you dont need to rush much
2metraninja: or they rely on having 1 hammer on town to help this out?
Ot4e: yes it helps a lot if you can afford it
Ot4e: in ironman you can hardly have so much luxuries
2metraninja: but you need to kill quick, otherwise you can find yourself behind in tech
Ot4e: it works differently than you say
Ot4e: you dont need to buy all army
2metraninja: but?
Ot4e: let's say you tech steam power
2metraninja: to supplement the needed tip over your opponent?
Ot4e: you buy levee
2metraninja: aha
2metraninja: develop quicker
Ot4e: instead of making it for 8 turns
2metraninja: instead of whipping it
Ot4e: for 7 turns it produces the profit
Ot4e: and works out what you have invested in it
Ot4e: you can easily develop new cities
2metraninja: but usually you have about 1:2 hammers:money
2metraninja: at that point
Ot4e: it is 1:3
2metraninja: yes, isnt 1:3 not good conversation ratio?
Ot4e: you make many multipliers
Ot4e: banks
Ot4e: when you buy levee you dont use it to produce money
Ot4e: you produce hammers
Ot4e: when you research key tech you buy few units
Ot4e: others are produced
Ot4e: you waste 2-3 turns of teching to buy units
Ot4e: no more
Ot4e: being in constant war and buying all is not good
2metraninja: yes, this is what I thought too
Ot4e: usually you just need to buy nukes
2metraninja: hahah
2metraninja: you actually play ironman till nukes?
2metraninja: thats iron man indeed
Ot4e: not often
2metraninja: the only ironman I played ended at about rifles
2metraninja: Nicky got killed with samurais in galleons, despite he had rifles and blamed the lag, 1-2 others got killed the normal way and the only remaining guy conceded to me, despite we were about 50:50 chances
Ot4e: we usually finish earlier because of lags
Ot4e: leavers ruin it
Ot4e: i thought RB will rush rifles earlier
Ot4e: but they seems to consider that drafting maceman is good enough
2metraninja: we suspected they will play for mace/cats kill one of the weakings of their neighbors
2metraninja: back then we believed that Sulla is the RB mastermind and that is his favorite thing to do - mace/cats
Ot4e: they could perform ele+cat rush like 30 turns ago
2metraninja: they had NAP back then
2metraninja: if we need to come to talk to French, can I rely on you cooperating us?
Ot4e: what do you mean?
Ot4e: you see I am giving you info about frenchies
Ot4e: if I cooperate with them, why would i do that?
Ot4e: but I am not sure what you want from me exactly
2metraninja: no, no
Ot4e: can you say that we have good relations?
2metraninja: please, dont get me wrong all you say makes perfect sense
2metraninja: I am trying to introduce you to one idea I had while chewing my excellent Margarita pizza with added rukola
2metraninja: so it is quite new to me myself and I am still trying to figure out what is needed to work
Ot4e: i am listening
2metraninja: since we are at war with French now
2metraninja: and obviously will need to maintain serious army there even if we manage to solidify borders and get to only cold war situation
2metraninja: so will they have to do the very same
2metraninja: to keep serious army on our border as it will be hostile border. right?
2metraninja: and they are promised you to help to fight RB
2metraninja: if our diplomacy with them fail (I still have to push in our team to say to French something at least)
Ot4e: so what's the gist
Ot4e: Margarita wasnt that good i guess
2metraninja: hahah
2metraninja: the gist is that if our diplomacy with them fail, you can come to them and tell them the idea that if we sign NAP, this will do not one, but two great deals to harm RB. Once we will be free to send our French army to the RB front, and then, French can keep their word easily by sending the army they will keep on our border as they will not need to fear us anymore
Ot4e: do you think they understand that?
Ot4e: what is my role?
Ot4e: CO
Ot4e: ?
2metraninja: the neutral buddy who care for the good of the game
Ot4e: I mean why they dont understand that themselves
Ot4e: or you can say that yourself
Ot4e: of course I can try this
Ot4e: but it doesnt seem that they are not going to make NAP with you just because I didnt tell them to do that
Ot4e: i have no pressure on them...
Ot4e: that's bad but true
Ot4e: and we still dont know if they are going to support us at all
Ot4e: i can say that keeping army busy in your conflict does great harm to our campagn against RB, but doubt that my voice will be decidefull
2metraninja: yes, it is only an idea
2metraninja: and it comes from you who is at worst neutral
2metraninja: where if we propose them, it will come from their enemy
Ot4e: let's wait for their reaction
2metraninja: their reaction on your request with the army?
Ot4e: on both
2metraninja: on which else?
Ot4e: on war with you
2metraninja: you did not send anything from what we spoke already, yes?
Ot4e: of course
2metraninja: ok, because this is only my attempt to move and see way before things
2metraninja: I am not even sure we will want to maek the first step and look weak
2metraninja: at least before Zulu are no more
Ot4e: when zulu gets eliminated it will be clear
Ot4e: i dont think that frenchie will be happy to continue this pointless war
Ot4e: it is harmful for their development
Ot4e: and doesnt promise any profit
2metraninja: yes, I thought about them not being the hardest bastard and fight only because they acted stupid and threatened us
Ot4e: sounds like i will see those unpromoted HA at my side soon
Ot4e: anyway, the ball is at their side and they are not hurrying to answer
2metraninja: dont know about their 7 HAs, but you will see additional 70 units on the RB border from us
Ot4e: nice to hear
2metraninja: if we had NAP with them, we have no reasons to keep them there once the zulus are out
Ot4e: 70 if you make peace with civfr?
Ot4e: or 70 if you dont
2metraninja: additional 70 if we make NAP with CivFR
2metraninja: we have 70 units there. and we will just send them to RB if we dont need them against French
Ot4e: i still think i cant help
Ot4e: if i dont know details of NAP you propose
Ot4e: this is just no more than my personal wish
2metraninja: oh, we did not even discussed proposing a NAP
2metraninja: but I want to do my homework

2metraninja: hmm, what happened with those old French guys, who needed to be told RB are teching liberalism while they tech Civil Services?
Ot4e: ?
2metraninja: I mean, you were worrying French need to be pointed out how backward they are and we are all "this cant be tru"
Ot4e: i said my influence on them is limited. I undertood your idea. Of course I will tell them when I get chance.
Ot4e: but on their place I wouldnt listen
2metraninja: I just checked and we can have easy 500 gpt without a GA, so french 750 gpt are not that impossible
Ot4e: how so?
2metraninja: oh, please, dont tell them anything, we are not ready with the Zulus yet
Ot4e: why not
2metraninja: put all food in merchants, put all production in wealth
Ot4e: merchant gives less than cottage i believe
2metraninja: I am just checking what you think on this, I am not ready to propose to French anything yet
2metraninja: than cottage, yes, but with REP it gives nice additional 3 bpt
Ot4e: well saying that war with you is bad idea in my mind doesnt demands any readiness from you
2metraninja: well, when you put things like this.. maybe yes
Ot4e: nothing more you ask me so far, right?
2metraninja: if this is your firm and honest belief, I cant stop you from telling it to anyone
2metraninja: just kidding
Ot4e: i just wanted to know if I understand your idea right
2metraninja: yes, I am not asking anything more yet, than your readiness when/if we decide we will need a little help to aid our efforts to get NAP with them, to be ready with this nice scenario - that NAP between CFC and French will help you and your plans, because we will send our army towards RBa dn French will be able to fulfil their promise to you and send their army too
Ot4e: i prepared to soemthing complicated

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2metraninja: 1. Ot4e wants a formalized alliance with the following:
a. We will consider him in an alliance with us and commit to treat him as our main ally, putting CP before any others - like marriage.
b. We give him a promise to defend him to the last man like defending our own lands if anyone attacks him, including/especially that if RB attacks CP, we will DoW RB, enter the War zone and coordinate all attacks with CP like a team.
c. We will end all trade with RB when the NAP ends and not make any new deals with them. No OB, no resources, no nothing.
d. We will share with him all our plans, trades, NAPs, espy infos, Wonders plans, tech plans etc, just as you would share with a teammate in a team game.

We should send that to CP right away and ask Ot4e to agree to do the same for us, to put that issue aside and get our alliance locked in for the end of the NAP.

2. Ot4e has a friendship with CivFr. He will not help us against them. So our alliance with CP must take that into account.

3. CivFr is not allies with RB just yet, in fact they act against them in some ways, so there is still hope that we can neutralize the CivFr threat without eliminating them, but it will take Ot4e's help, and he is not willing to help us do that until we have a set-in-stone clear alliance pact with him... So let's get that done first.
2metraninja: those are our thoughts after all this time and all those chats and talks
Ot4e: 2metraninja:

<<< like marriage
Ot4e: heh
Ot4e: i doubt that your team accepts this
Ot4e: but it is great that you try
Ot4e: so you dont believe that 3 sided alliance can work or it is just a first step?
2metraninja: you are welcome to comment on them and tell us if you see things the same or if there are differences or incorrect things
Ot4e: do you want it to be inprinted in paper or that's just what you tell to your team? or both?
Ot4e: i will give you my first-view opinion
2metraninja: yes, speak freely, it is just talk between old friends and new partners
Ot4e: 1. I wouldnt say that I insist on formal agreement. You know that I allways try to avoid them. Because I see only loopholes in them. There is no difference for me between formal agreement and just your word. But some basics can be put on paper of course, like "we are allies", if there are some concerns about this. As I said I consider us allies since we agreed to coordinate our NAPs with RB.

a. I dont understand what it means to "put before others", sounds great but not clear.

b. we can hardly help each other in the defense so far. I prefer to treat it like mutual attack plan. We promise to attack RB if it attacks one of our allies. Attack coordination of course.

c. is what we have allready agreed on

d. we already agreed to and sharing but the limits are not clear. This hides many possible advantages and risks. From one side we need to know what each other is doing from the other we might find the zone of conflict of interests

2. I dont have friendship with civfr. It is illusion. And I am already helping you against them. But I am not ready to enter direct war of course before NAP expires

3. I didnt say that I am not ready just because we have dont have pact. Not sure that I got this clause correct.
2metraninja: very good
2metraninja: this which I had sent you are not clauses, it is some structured observation which came after our team members read our chats from yesterday
2metraninja: but I think they capture the spirit of our thoughts well
2metraninja: and your comments are in just the same spirit
2metraninja: I will allow myself post your comments for the team to see them and not worry much I showed our thoughts to you at first place, as your attitude is possitive

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The treaty will have the following clause in it.

A. Each of us gives their word not to look for loopholes to escape from the main purpose of this alliance, which is seeing to it that we two defeat all the other teams.

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Ot4e: Hi
Ot4e: How is it going?
2metraninja: oho
2metraninja: hi there
2metraninja: it is so-so
2metraninja: talking MZ to build big army
Ot4e: Yeah when he says big dont expect too much)
2metraninja: I meant my understanding of "big"
2metraninja: otherwise I know his minimalistic approach
2metraninja: but he is free to decide what to have, as we expect RB will have 120 units at t 170
Ot4e: Whats with civfr?
2metraninja: it is his call if he have real army or he will wait to be attacked before actually build army
2metraninja: nothing yet
2metraninja: I wanted to ask you if you got any answer
Ot4e: Yes
2metraninja: they conservated the front and are upgrading units like mad
2metraninja: oh, did you?
2metraninja: and what are they saying?
Ot4e: Finally we got it
2metraninja: will they keep their agreements about helping against RB?
Ot4e: Nothing good but i will try to press on them
2metraninja:
2metraninja: something you can share with me?
2metraninja: like: "we are busy fighting those hard-heads CFC, so we cant send help vs RB" ?
Ot4e: What are your plans on the land between you and frenchies? When they razed city it freed solid part of the land? And what are accepteble conditions for u? I need to make so proposal to them and it must at least look generous
2metraninja: but in the role of what you will make offers to them from our name?
2metraninja: I mean, we told them we are open for talks, but we insist they start to treat with some respect and begin be reasonable
Ot4e: They just missed this part of my questions of course
2metraninja: would you risk to anger them somehow if you come and offer them things in our name? as if you act on our behalf?
Ot4e: I will try to reveal this ofc
2metraninja: they can start to be suspicious that we somehow are trying to cheat them and we are plotting against them
2metraninja: do you think if you make them offer for peace, they will look at it favorably?
Ot4e: I allready risk a lot that dealing with them anyhow
2metraninja: still, what they said? in a nutshell?

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They gave their view of the war with you. Nothing interesting. That you took their merchant as a hostage. Lol. First time i see hostages in civ )))
Ot4e: That they are going to fight with you until death and so on
Ot4e: Didnt expect them to beg for peace especially when they have seemed to decide to waste their entire golden age on upgrades.
Ot4e: But i have feel that it is not impassable barrier
Ot4e: So are you going to expand and take the rest of the land? Or we can may be promise it to Civfr just for a small period until we do fatal strike on RB?

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2metraninja: we will need a lot of energy for our uncoming clash
2metraninja: lol, upcoming*
2metraninja: how are the sentiments?
2metraninja: expectations? spirit high?
Ot4e: oh yes, we will kick ass
2metraninja: good, good, this is what I want to hear
2metraninja: blood will flow and the screams will be earsplitting
2metraninja: btw, will you write to French soon or you think it is hopeless to make them agree to something reasonable?
Ot4e: i wrote them
Ot4e: no idea will it change anything
Ot4e: but they are researching
Ot4e: or did they just upgraded all?
2metraninja: I dont know
2metraninja: I saw last time they had some gold in cash
2metraninja: but their power is growing, so I dont really know
2metraninja: what they do
2metraninja: in their mysterious French ways
2metraninja: did they said if they will keep their agreements to you?
Ot4e: they didnt answer
Ot4e: but they said that noone of them takes responsibility for diplomacy before voting among the team
Ot4e: so it takes so longs
Ot4e: that was their excuse
Ot4e: lol
Ot4e: but may be there is serious disputes there and my voice will have its force
2metraninja: for me it will be clear - if they dont make peace, then they are not willing or going to help whatsoever
2metraninja: but what diplomacy and voting have to do here? they agreed already with you to send real help against RB
2metraninja: they must have voted back then
2metraninja: and once agreed, it is their job to do whatever is needed to keep their word
2metraninja: like us - war or no war with French, we will have the army we promised at RB border
2metraninja: of course, it will be easier and way less costly for us to just use our existing army and add few units to it than to raise whole new army, but we will do it if comes to that
2metraninja: eh, how easy would everything have been if you took more seriously my idea of either block signing NAPs with French or jointly destroy them
2metraninja: we could had given short NAP to RB and partition CivFR in 10 turns.
2metraninja: both you and MZ need more land and more cities
2metraninja: and taking those from CivFR would have been piece of cake
Ot4e: i have already explained to you this. right after i promised to think about it you came saying that you are trying to do your best to make peace with Civfr and your relations were warming
Ot4e: of course it would be easy from now
Ot4e: but they would play different too
2metraninja: yes, it was looking like warming before out of the blue came their demands and threats
Ot4e: yes but it was rather late for us to change plans and just after we agreed to extend peace
2metraninja: I hope we will repair this mistake in future
2metraninja: one of the Spaniards joined our team
2metraninja: and tells us stories about French
2metraninja: lol, those guys are hilarious bastards
Ot4e: you can share some with me but i seems to have understanding of what they are
2metraninja: yes, I think you have idea
2metraninja: hahah, the Spanish guy shouts with his bad English: "Kill them! Kill them all! Franchutes! Lying basterds! They say one and then they say they never agreed on that"
Ot4e: why did they (spanish) gave them city for free and did vendetta against you at all?
2metraninja: it turned out it is not the case
2metraninja: Spaniards lyed to us too
2metraninja: to make us make war with French
2metraninja: so, he said the city was not able to be defended anyway
2metraninja: thats why they emptied it and told us they have agreement with French
2metraninja: so we to see only this: Spaniards empty cities to French
2metraninja: and to make conflict between us
2metraninja: and why we had to kill all zulu 25 units, it just we were advancing way faster than French, because we had army and French were just started to upgrade units and organize an army when we were besieging Zulu capitol
2metraninja: also, you know - we are the arch-enemy
2metraninja: they attacked us and failed
Ot4e: ok, this explains everything
Ot4e:

Ot4e: any news from MZ
Ot4e: ?
2metraninja: but Germans have good army
Ot4e: did you discuss anything?
2metraninja: if they have time to heal
2metraninja: they can take with them some 20 RB units
2metraninja: yes, I heard from ZM
2metraninja: he said he will have rifles really early
2metraninja: he also said he will be ready for war
Ot4e: great
Ot4e: which turn?
Ot4e: but i believe
Ot4e: 1600 gnp
2metraninja: said the same thing as you - that he will not sacrifice his army, even if this will do great harm to RB
2metraninja: yes, 1600 GNP scary, eh?
2metraninja: he will surpass us in score just in few turns
2metraninja: and French too I think
Ot4e: in score no
Ot4e: land gives nice piece
2metraninja: he have 19 cities and we have 20
2metraninja: after fighting 3 wars
2metraninja: and he fighting none and having 5 axes all in all
Ot4e: yes but landmass
2metraninja: so far, he is closing the distance in points
Ot4e: ok it is not important to discuss right now
2metraninja: yes, sure
2metraninja: what about Moineau?
2metraninja: is he any good in renaissance play?
Ot4e: he is good in all eras
2metraninja: I know some of the Ladder guys dont know what to tech after Gunpowder
Ot4e: just those who play ancient only
2metraninja: yes
2metraninja: trying to joke
Ot4e: frenchies are strange guys
Ot4e: we play a lot with them
Ot4e: they do many mistakes we see but somehow are still doing good
2metraninja: you mean they are strange in other games too? are those online games or pitbosses too?
Ot4e: and beating us much more often
2metraninja: hahah
2metraninja: well, that is odd
Ot4e: in online games i mean
2metraninja: so, what we see as poor play now from them can turn out good move which we cant just see/appreciate?
Ot4e: at my observation no
Ot4e: they are just very good in other things, in details i'd say
Ot4e: which compensate their disadvantages
2metraninja: details like what?
Ot4e: in online games like having units in the right place
2metraninja: just like in our game
2metraninja: MZ keep telling me how stupid French upgrades are and disregard them as noobs, and keeps wondering what are they up to. but I know it was the right move on their side
2metraninja: they had no other option than to get an army from somewhere
Ot4e: whip it?
2metraninja: if they hoped to get something from Zulus at all
2metraninja: whipping those cottages in GA is not good
2metraninja: they grow only on cottages
Ot4e: are you ready to give loan to MZ if he asks?
Ot4e: in next 10 turns i mean
2metraninja: loan? what for?
Ot4e: to get rifles faster
2metraninja: he mentioned something about loans and I said to him we can work something, but then he said he will be at rifles in t 163 or something anyway
Ot4e: t163?
Ot4e: wow
2metraninja: he is doing well, eh?
2metraninja: eh, maybe I understand not well the date?
2metraninja: but I am almost sure
2metraninja: he said t163
2metraninja: how your preparations go?
Ot4e: I cant brag with such a good forecast
Ot4e: as I said we will do our bests
Ot4e: I estimate to produce units of 3000 hammers by turn 170
Ot4e: may be more
Ot4e: but it depends to some things
Ot4e: and we will see how the position will look like, will we need the best preparance by 170 or 175
2metraninja: yes, a lot of things depend on how RB situation will look by t170-175

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Ot4e: So let me sum up what I am waiting from you:
- missionary
- decision/pathing for 2 fast workers
- decision about our NAP extension and new edition of our treaty
Ot4e: seems like that's all, right?
Ot4e: or may be I forget something
Ot4e: ah yes and uciv graps
Ot4e: and I send you screenshot of Civfrs land

Click to expand...

Ot4e: So let me sum up what I am waiting from you:
- missionary
- decision/pathing for 2 fast workers
- decision about our NAP extension and new edition of our treaty
Ot4e: seems like that's all, right?
Ot4e: or may be I forget something
Ot4e: ah yes and uciv graps
Ot4e: and I send you screenshot of Civfrs land

Click to expand...