Summer craziness, Deity OCC Always War, without chokepoint.

I don't know for now, but Seraiel played maps full with peacemongers/techers that were happy with each others and tech traded highly. In a random map, sparkles between leaders will refrain AI's to leap technologically unless the rare map rolling with just techers...or one techer with an abusive multiple high commerce tiles (gold, gems, etc.) start is popped.

Yes, marathon speed is tailored for war and that is the principal point. One thing that is not adjusted through the gamespeeds is unit movements and on normal speed, you won't crush 3-4 AI's out of 6 with just one type of units. You will crush one and at most two because your units will obsolete before burning every AI city.

I seem to remember watching on Youtube some talk on the civ4 AI that Soren Johnson gave once (I think the one at Google?) where he talked specifically about this AI tech trade behavior. IIRC, the reason the AI doesn't trade techs immediately isnt to avoid clutter, its to avoid giving the player the impression that the AIs "cheat" by teching in lockstep. e.g. the player sees that Mansa has Currency for trade but the Player is in the lead otherwise, he hits end turn to finish Metalcasting and now wants to trade, but he now sees that, out of nowhere, Mansa, Hannibal, Sitting Bull, and Justinian all have Currency, Construction, Metalcasting, and Calendar. were that to happen every once in a great while, we can figure out it was tech trading, but if it were to happen all the time, it gives the impression that the AI is just getting techs for free.

Tall German Joe said:

I seem watching on Youtube some talk on the civ4 AI that Soren Johnson gave once (I think the one at Google?) where he talked specifically about this AI tech trade behavior. IIRC, the reason the AI doesn't trade techs immediately isnt to avoid clutter, its to avoid giving the player the impression that the AIs "cheat" by teching in lockstep. e.g. the player sees that Mansa has Currency for trade but the Player is in the lead anyways, he hits end turn to finish Metalcasting and now wants to trade, but he now sees that, out of nowhere, Mansa, Hannibal, Sitting Bull, and Justinian all have Currency, Construction, Metalcasting, and Calendar. were that to happen every once in a great while, we can figure out it was tech trading, but if it were to happen all the time, it gives the impression that the AI is just getting techs for free.

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That behavior reminds me CivIII days where once I broke my monopoly on a tech with a single AI, all AI's having contact with that AI suddenly get it in the few next turns.

BornInCantaloup said:

Those were good games, well done! And good reads, thank you! (including previous one)
That goes to show the power of promotions and how cleaning up units can be game-winning. I liked, especially, the early focus on the Woodsman promos. Then all-GG army makes me raise eyebrows, lol. GG, indeed.

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Thanks, it's nice to know that people enjoy my craziness

@bumping the difficulty higher, I'd look into:
- map layout: more than one entrance to your territory would change things a lot, increasing, notably, the risk to get pillaged and making it more difficult to resist an attack with 0 casualties (split forces) // as it is, the map funneled units to your city... not sure "no choke" is the appropriate expression (city acts as choke and there is 2 tiles choke to the north) // did they ever try to circle your city and pillage?;
- more capable AIs. To me, a dream team would draw heavily on balanced leaders: Catherine, Hannibal, Joao, Suryavarman, Mao Zedong, Willem Von Oranje, Charlemagne, Suleiman, Julius Caesar, Gilgamesh. All very capable at expansion, research, military. Maybe mix in some others for flavour/utility.
- More territory for the AIs. 6 cities, 10 cities or 15 cities Empires don't spam the same amount of troops, don't research at the same speed.

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In the end, I razed 66 cities, so 1 AIs got average 11 cities, I thinks that is quite much on a small maps. But I surely can lower the sea level so they can get more. Mixing AIs is a nice idea, Lizzy will be BFF with Monty

Wish you fun

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You bet I am

bhavv said:

I really enjoyed playing this and getting loads of XP on my defending units, but I couldn't pull off the CS oracle slingshot. I found it much more reliable to just take MC as that's needed along the way to unlock samurai.

Its almost like a tower defense game.

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In that case, maybe you can try this with a choke point, and watch the crazy 1200+ exp unit

Oracle CS is a gambit, after all. But me and Doshin got at the same time, so you can bet on those time, too. Maybe you got oracle too late??

Addition: Liberalism goes at 300 BC on Marathon settings, if blocking Education (and sometimes even Paper) from them, while engaging them in wars against each other.

In a game where they have joined wars and are friendly to each other because of it, it could go even earlier. Espcially with Mansa in the game, you can be sure that it'll go really early, because he wants his favourite Civic, unlocked by Economics.

I could think of it going later, because AIs research is cut by 20% when in war, but AIs reach friendly status so easily, that I have no idea what one could do against them traiding everything to each other. The biggest factor of course is the number of AIs, the larger the map, the more opponents, the more trades, so take minimum number of AIs, and maybe there's something one could do with peaceweight, like take only neutral AIs, that at least don't get any bonuses from favouring each other.

Well i learnt a lot reading this, and was fun to read!

Thanks for sharing and i look forward to the next one

I would really like to play a similar game like this with Cyrus of Japan instead, those GG powered Samurai are amazing units.

I messed up my first try because I heavily promoted my axes along Combat for defense, and my super medic warrior actually became a much more powerful samurai with Woodsman III, Drill IV, Medic III and March plus +100% EXP gain and +1 movement.

What would be the best promotion choices for Axes that are going to be upgraded to Samurai? Im thinking that Combat 1, Shock, Woodsman 3 and then save promotions for Drill would be ideal.

ScorpionK said:

Oracle CS is a gambit, after all. But me and Doshin got at the same time, so you can bet on those time, too. Maybe you got oracle too late??

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I went with the same tech path as the OP, Mining > Masonry > BW > Hunting (4 axes + 2 spears sufficed for defense, and G Wall and Pyramids) > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood > Writing > CoL.

On two attempts, the AI completed Oracle before I finished researching CoL.

ScorpionK said:

In that case, maybe you can try this with a choke point, and watch the crazy 1200+ exp unit

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The super medic warrior turned into a samurai as described above plonked on a forested hill, destroys hundreds of units per turn lol.

ScorpionK said:

I don't understand much about culture discount. I will make a trial game for that.

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Done that for you:

City swamped in culture = 30% discount. Note that the map layout will influence, vastly, the opportunities for such cities. Choke, isolated capital will not allow to steal very easily. On this particular map you played, there is no easy way to stack the espionage bonuses.
Open land, on the other hand, guarantees that several AI cities will border your capital. But then, open land AW is brutal. I doubt it is an appropriate setting for OCC. Open land requires an Empire.

ScorpionK said:

Am I naive to think normal speed or quick will help us to win Space race better??

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Very possible, indeed. I never played a full game on Marathon, though... so... I never know.

bhavv said:

What would be the best promotion choices for Axes that are going to be upgraded to Samurai? Im thinking that Combat 1, Shock, Woodsman 3 and then save promotions for Drill would be ideal.

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Shock may be unnecessary. Axes/Samurais have a natural bonus against melee, therefore top defenders will be, in priority, non-melee units. Woodsman III is a great target to protect tiles and get extra xp (attacking when odds are high enough). More Combat, more Drill is fine. Also, Shock obsoletes as a promotion. Maybe 1 shock axe is good but it isn't necessary to go overboard with that promo.
I think, I believe, maybe.


@Sun Tzu Wu:
Very informative posts, cool

bhavv said:

I would really like to play a similar game like this with Cyrus of Japan instead, those GG powered Samurai are amazing units.

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This will make a super GG army; but I think it is a bit overkill. If I have to choose between PHI and CHA, obviously that PHI. After this game, I think more GG is better than few GG with massive experience, so IMP is my choice over CHA.

I messed up my first try because I heavily promoted my axes along Combat for defense, and my super medic warrior actually became a much more powerful samurai with Woodsman III, Drill IV, Medic III and March plus +100% EXP gain and +1 movement.

What would be the best promotion choices for Axes that are going to be upgraded to Samurai? Im thinking that Combat 1, Shock, Woodsman 3 and then save promotions for Drill would be ideal.

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Yep, shock is needed cause most CR unit is melee. Here are some numbers for you. Watch the incoming AIs, if they got melee, shock is obvious. I often promote before battle. You need to survive first, after all, don't think too much about promotions. In the end, only my 1st GG is allow to have combat line before CR 3.

With CHA, you need 128 exp for basic promotion, Drill 4, Woodsman 3, and Combat 6, lv 13. If you take shock, 148 exp.

Without CHA, it will be 170 exp. take shock, 197 exp.

I went with the same tech path as the OP, Mining > Masonry > BW > Hunting (4 axes + 2 spears sufficed for defense, and G Wall and Pyramids) > Mysticism > Meditation > Priesthood > Writing > CoL.

On two attempts, the AI completed Oracle before I finished researching CoL.

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Tech path is one thing, but micro is another. Here is also some number:

My game: got CoL and Oracle at 1590 BC.
Doshin game: got CoL at 1740 BC and oracle at 1590 BC.

Obviously Doshin's micro is way better than me. Got CoL 150 years earlier. He even got archery before.

Everything about the race of early wonder is micro

The super medic warrior turned into a samurai as described above plonked on a forested hill, destroys hundreds of units per turn lol.

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That's the main reason I play OCC AW, you know

BornInCantaloup said:

Done that for you

City swamped in culture = 30% discount. Note that the map layout will influence, vastly, the opportunities for such cities. Choke, isolated capital will not allow to steal very easily. On this particular map you played, there is no easy way to stack the espionage bonuses.

Open land, on the other hand, guarantees that several AI cities will border your capital. But then, open land AW is brutal. I doubt it is an appropriate setting for OCC. Open land requires an Empire.

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Many thanks to you, culture might be good. I could handle open land, like this game. With a good layout, I could try to protect my improvement.

But one trouble is when AI city got swamped in culture like that, it will be very likely that city will be auto-razed.

Hmm, if I am lucky, maybe AI will put a ton of unit in that city to prevent that. It might worth a try, I still love EE very much.

Shock was necessary, I had plain woodsman 3 axes being killed in the walled hill capital by AI Combat 1 + Shock axes. I was trying to save as many promotions for later as possible, but if they are dying then its no good.

You need a few shock axes, and two formation spears up ASAP to be safe.

I tried making a custom game with a 1 plot isthmus and a choke point, but then the AI never attacked me (I had more aggressive AI picked, but they wouldnt attack my axes + spears on a forested hill choke point).

Could someone set up a similar game to the one in the OP with Cyrus of Japan on a map where the AI will attack please?

@STW

I know how the AW Espionage Economy works. What I don't know (and hence my question) is the typical tech pace on Marathon.

If it is possible to out-tech the AI with a super start, then it is better to generate research through wonders because the espionage economy, for all its efficiency, is most viable when you need to catch up. Otherwise it is better to go it alone, Lib Rifling, and pound the AI senseless before they are able to race ahead.

I do not play Marathon so I did not know that Lib will often go at 300 BC (thanks @Seraiel) when tech trading is enabled. If that is the case, then the no tech trade setting is clearly a bigger deal than the game speed. In my run at this game, only one AI made it to Knights, which helps to show the extent of the tech advantage provided by the wonder economy under those settings.

Do you consider 1 gold, 1 gems, 2 fish; hill stone under city is the super capital?? Maybe with 4 floodplain?

And do you mean that if capital got no lux resources, EE will be better than wonder economy?

I just make a map which AIs city is close enough but in order to make culture spread to that city, I still have to wait very long time. And unlucky for me that city is a holy city of Buddhism. Still not sure if I can win Lib race. If I can win lib race, I may tone down the capital.

In this trial game, I got darius, roosevet, julian cesar, sitting bull, shaka and hannibal. Except shaka, all of them is really strong tech-wise. With tech trading enable, but tech broker disable.

bhavv said:

Shock was necessary, I had plain woodsman 3 axes being killed in the walled hill capital by AI Combat 1 + Shock axes. I was trying to save as many promotions for later as possible, but if they are dying then its no good.

You need a few shock axes, and two formation spears up ASAP to be safe.

I tried making a custom game with a 1 plot isthmus and a choke point, but then the AI never attacked me (I had more aggressive AI picked, but they wouldnt attack my axes + spears on a forested hill choke point).

Could someone set up a similar game to the one in the OP with Cyrus of Japan on a map where the AI will attack please?

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You can try the map in my second OCC game, put it in WB and change suleman to cyrus.

They will not attack your choke point until they think they can win. That's why you need to estimate how many units to hold the choke while still got experience for your GG. I could tell you the magic number if you like

With the Espionage Economy, one doesn't need great commerce tiles to maintain technological parity and can use bulbs and representation to gain leads in certain technology beelines.

Great Scientist bulbs can help take the lead in key Military Technologies (for example to Liberalize Military Tradition or Military Science) and Espionage to back fill Technologies in other beelines or even fill some prequisite Technologies in some cases.

An Academy and The Pyramids for early Representation can help research the Technologies on the beeline that are not bulbable or stealable from the AI.

For the Espionage Economy to work efficiently, one really should abandon OCC in favor of a tightly packed (3 plots from each other) cluster of cities. The Imperialistic trait will serve a dual role in building the city cluster very quickly as well as generating Great Generals quickly. As I mentioned before, one can allow an AI to capture trojan cities from which technology stealing can be cheaply done via state religion espionage discounts and city culture espionage discounts.

I still say that Always War, Technology Trading/Technology Brokering (both for the AIs only) and the Espionage Economy with early Representation have great synergy with a clustered city group strategy.

There may be some way to use Forts effectively on forested hills with clear flat land outside as a killing field for the AIs. Attacking AI stacks should generate experience points about twice as fast especially by going through the Drill line which allows 99% combats yeild 2 XPs; may want to add Shock after Drill I though and then continue the Drill line.

What is the advantage of going through the City Raider line early when there are no cities to capture then? City/Fort ambush attacks? I rarely play Always War, but it sounds intriguing and fun.

Sun Tzu Wu

On my choke point I only placed a single axe and spear, plus a medic warrior.

The AI wouldn't attack it at all.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

For the Espionage Economy to work efficiently, one really should abandon OCC in favor of a tightly packed (3 plots from each other) cluster of cities. The Imperialistic trait will serve a dual role in building the city cluster very quickly as well as generating Great Generals quickly. As I mentioned before, one can allow an AI to capture trojan cities from which technology stealing can be cheaply done via state religion espionage discounts and city culture espionage discounts.

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In the past AW games that I've played (all Immortal, tech trading/brokering enabled) I've relied largely or entirely upon an Espionage Economy to stay in the game. The economy always crashes, but a combination of settled Great People, Great Spy bombs, and regular Spy points can be enough to keep you going.

Also, Castles. Man I love Castles, and this is one of the few scenarios where they justify their cost.

I do wonder (<-- uncertainty, not skepticism) how well a compact, 3-city empire would survive under normal AW settings (HOF start, but not doctored). It is almost impossible to win Lib when expanding to 8-10 cities, on a Pangaea-type map. It might be possible if things are kept tight. I also don't know whether island cities would be needed to supplement this core. Overseas cities are a big deal when limited to domestic trade routes.

Sun Tzu Wu said:

What is the advantage of going through the City Raider line early when there are no cities to capture then? City/Fort ambush attacks? I rarely play Always War, but it sounds intriguing and fun.

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I can't speak for the others. For me, the City Raider line should be left as late as possible, but should be nurtured around about the time Education comes in. The promotion line is cut off upon upgrading the Medieval troops to Rifles or Grenadiers, and ideally you want to promote your super-units instantly. I didn't manage this perfectly... and you can see in my pictures that one Samurai just kept going, because he was too far from my core to justify going back for the upgrade.

However, most Civs need to rely upon Longbows to make it through the Medieval period, and these obviously can't be promoted to CR at all. Japan is unusual thanks to the Samurai (a hugely underrated UU). But even for Japan under tougher circumstances, I suspect that the LB would still be needed to keep Knights in check.

bhavv said:

On my choke point I only placed a single axe and spear, plus a medic warrior.

The AI wouldn't attack it at all.

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Yeah, that's happen

I will reveal my little trick to make AI attack your choke most of time in my next game. Please be patience

For the Espionage Economy to work efficiently, one really should abandon OCC in favor of a tightly packed (3 plots from each other) cluster of cities. The Imperialistic trait will serve a dual role in building the city cluster very quickly as well as generating Great Generals quickly. As I mentioned before, one can allow an AI to capture trojan cities from which technology stealing can be cheaply done via state religion espionage discounts and city culture espionage discounts.

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I totally agree with you on this, but doing so will force me abandon my challenge, I want to make OCC winnable even in the hardest, most brutal setting.

I like EE because the same thing you said, don't need great commerce tile at the start. Just a normal stone start will be ok. The culture discount will help EE a lot. At the moment, I still try to make a map which allow AI settled city as close as possible, then use spy to spread culture to help with the discount.

I already prove how OCC winnable on normal condition in my first writeup so that's why now I want to take it to another level, Always War.

P.S: Your post is really clear and informative, as usual Ever got a hero name after you? , I got one

Great, you also like the Espionage Economy too, only with OCC, for the extra challenge.

Espionage Economy is still workable with OCC. Might still be able to spead religion naturally. May want to try to found most religions to increase natural religion spread over all and switch state religion to the one that does finally spread to the AIs nearby city.

Try to minimize land via high sea level. May want to stick with minimum # of AIs, so not too many come knocking loudly on one's door at the same time. They should eventually settle close by and then the Espionage fun can start.

At first Spread Culture missions will only an 1 culture. The risk of losing a Spy (Hammers lost) for only 2 culture is very steep. Maybe wait until total culture is about 100. Then the Spread Culture mission should provide 5 culture for maybe 2-3 espionage points. It will take 15 missions to get just over 100 culture into the city. It would take another 15 missions to add just over another 200 culture. The City will have 100 AI culture and just over 300 player culture. I'm guessing we'd be getting a small Culture discount at this point. The espionage cost was probably about 100E. The Spy loses may be unacceptibly high, but it would be fun to try. By the time total culture is 400, each Spread Culture mission is now adding 20C @ cost of about 8E perhaps. It keeps getting better with each successive mission.

The easiest discount should be Espionage Point Spending discount. One should get close to -50% discount by infiltrating with a Great Spy early enough. At normal speed this adds 3000 espionage points; at Marathon, I'd guess it would be tripled at 9000 espionage points. Just beeline Code of Laws, build a Courthouse and work a Spy Specialist to add to the output of The Great Wall. This suggests Philosophical for the second trait and a Great Scientist bulb of Philosophy for Pacifism as well as to set up Liberalizing a Military Technology and additional Great Scientist bulbs of Paper, Education, Liberalism, and possibly Chemistry for Liberalizing Military Science which unlocks the Commando promotion and with Morale will allow post-Engineering GG foot soldiers to move 6 plots per turn in enemy culture on Roads (and 10 plots on Rails).

Sun Tzu Wu

I aggree on the point, that developing most Religions oneself would be a good thing, because this would make the AIs get friendly to each other just not so fast. Religion spread on Marathon is trippled, so there's actually no need to spread Religion manually, especially, as AIs will do it for you, once they have only 1 city with a Religion at all. This could, and I guess will be, one of the most different games to the games that most of the people play here (Always War, Religion favouring game, Espionage Economy) .