Add Religious Victory?

Leoreth said:
Land.
Click to expand...

That seems to too high, maybe 50%.

Leoreth said:
Are you sure you can pull of a Domination victory early enough without failing the 50% without religion goal for Polytheism? Good point about Secularism though, I'm open for better ideas there too.
Click to expand...

I guess that could be avoided. Dunno, finish tech tree, launch a spaceship, build Apollo Program.

Leoreth said:
The Orthodoxy founding situation isn't a problem if all goals have to be fulfilled at the same time. The Cathedral goal could be extended to 4, but I really want the historical Orthodox civs to be able to complete their goals without ahistorical expansion. Culture related stuff was meant to represent iconography, if you have a better idea to represent that, I'm open to hear it.
Click to expand...

That might work. Definetly at least four, my idea was the shrines and AP.

Leoreth said:
I don't think it's that much of a problem if a URV has some sort of soft expire in this way.
Click to expand...

I think it is a slight problem as all civs couldn't achieve them. Of course AP could expire at a later tech too. I still don't like the tech goals though. I would still go with the whole tech tree or then maybe one later tech that any civ can get first to. Also being pope should for 100 turns wouldn't work with if the other goals need to be fulfilled at the same time.


Leoreth said:
Yeah, thought so too for the population, overall population is better after all. But it's meant to be five different GP types.
Click to expand...

Yeah, the 500million was just a first digit that came into my mind, 100 million could be fine too. Ok, then it makes sense.
 
I have no idea which city size corresponds to 100 or 500 million.

In any case, the goal should probably only count population in Hindu cities so that if you get it through conquest, you at least have to spread your religion.
 
Tomorrow's Dawn said:
You are mistaken.

Japan:

http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=828
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taoism_in_Japan

See Onmyodo.

Corea:

http://www2.gol.com/users/quakers/T&QTao.htm
Click to expand...

If anything, that proves my point, since these show only very small influences by Taoism on Japanese and Korean society. Taoism has also influenced New Age thought in the West, but that's hardly relevant on a grander scale. How are those even remotely comparable to Confucian values' influence?

E.g, quoting directly from your source:

Confucianism and Buddhism, rather than Taoism, have been the predominant and influential philosophies within Korean history. However, although never at the core of Korean history, Taoism has always existed as an underlying presence. Whereas Confucianism and Buddhism left behind a myriad of historical records, Taoism did not. The only recorded information that remains is small and fragmented. As a result of this, until the end of World War II only one fully researched paper on Korean Taoism existed.73 Because of this lack of written sources, Korean Taoism was incapable of spreading as a philosophy. However, that is not to say that Taoist philosophy did not have some influence.
Click to expand...

And Onmyodo isn't even directly related to Taoism, except by bad historians. It relates to general Chinese philosophical concepts, like yin and yang, that pre-date Laozi (and Kong Fuzi) and are incorporated into both philosophies as well as into Onmyodo.
 
Hightower said:
If anything, that proves my point, since these show only very small influences by Taoism on Japanese and Korean society. Taoism has also influenced New Age thought in the West, but that's hardly relevant on a grander scale. How are those even remotely comparable to Confucian values' influence?
Click to expand...

One doesn't necessarily cancel out the other.
You are looking at how Confucianism has shaped Japan and Corea as a society.
Which is no doubt, a major influence. However, you are treating Confucianism with the same value as a religion, which it is not, so the distinction must be made.
Taoism's influence on both Japan and Corea is comparable to Buddhism's on an spiritual level.

Hightower said:
And Onmyodo isn't even directly related to Taoism, except by bad historians. It relates to general Chinese philosophical concepts, like yin and yang, that pre-date Laozi (and Kong Fuzi) and are incorporated into both philosophies as well as into Onmyodo.
Click to expand...

Onmyodo is directly built upon Taoism, or to be more specific, enough major elements to be seen as having a recognizable origin,
whereas I would see your point if it had a more indigenous origin like Shinto. I don't know what kind of bad historians you are speaking of.
I also have to say that those "general philosophical concepts" are anything but.
Where you might be confused is the blurred mess that is Chinese folk religion which amalgamates almost everything.
They are exclusive to Taoism (the Five elements, Yin and Yang) as parts of an spiritual philosophy,
which is a more accurate description of Eastern & Dharmic influenced religions as opposed to dogmatic Abrahamic ones in conventional Western understanding,
whereas Confucianism, as I've repeatedly stated throughout the course of my time on the forum,
is not a religion but a system of ethics meant to maintain order and society. It's only included in as a religion because it has all the force of a religion.

You can't say that Taoism was really all that negligible either.
 
I love this feature. Lots and lots of brainless coding.
 
Yep, 520 lines in the Victory module alone yesterday.
 
Bobby Martnen said:
SVN confuses me, and my computer s almost out of disk space, so i have no space for svn

Will it be included in 1.12?
Click to expand...

The TortoiseSVN file on my computer is only 24 kilobytes on my disk. Surely you can spare that much.
If you can't, then why/how did you install DoC in the first place (which is 1.58 GB on disk)?

nvm, forgot that the SVN version of DoC is ~4-5 times larger than the regular version.
 
Weren't we discussing about "demoting" Taoism to minor religion and add another minor religion: Jew?
I wonder what happened to that plan.... I think Taoism shouldn't have URV...
 
I've just committed a first implementation with the following goals:
Code: 
	# Protestantism
	   - Enlightenment: be first to discover Liberalism, Constitution and Economics
	   - Work Ethic: make sure there are five great merchants and five great engineers settled in Protestant civilizations
	   - Religious Freedom: make sure that at least half of all civilizations are Protestant or secular
	# Catholicism
	   - Holy See: be Pope for 100 turns
	   - Holy Land: control the Catholic shrine and make sure 12 great prophets are settled in Catholic civilizations
	   - Holy Mission: make sure 50% of the world territory are controlled by Catholic civilizations
	# Orthodoxy
	   - Patriarchates: build four Orthodox cathedrals
	   - Iconography: control three cities with influential culture
	   - Communion: make sure there are no Catholic civilizations
	# Islam
	   - Shahada: spread Islam to 50%
	   - Hajj: settle seven great people in the Muslim holy city
	   - Jihad: control five shrines
	# Hinduism
	   - Varna: settle five different great people in the Hindu holy city
	   - Artha: experience 24 turns of golden age
	   - Kama: have a total population of 500 million
	# Buddhism
	   - Sila: be at peace for 100 turns
	   - Nirvana: have the highest approval rating for 100 turns
	   - Middle Way: have no furious or annoyed relations with any civilization
	# Confucianism
	   - Harmony: have friendly relations with five civilizations
	   - Ritual: control the Confucian and Taoist shrine and combine their income to 40 gold
	   - Five Classics: settle five great people in the Confucian holy city
	# Taoism
	   - Virtue: make sure there are two other Taoist civilizations
	   - Three Treasures: build three wonders in the Taoist holy city
	   - Immortality: have legendary culture in the Taoist holy city
	# Zoroastrianism
	   - Adar: acquire six incense resources
	   - Mathra: spread Zoroastrianism to 20%
	   - Shahnameh: have legendary culture in the Zoroastrian holy city
	# Polytheism
	   - make sure there are 15 pagan temples in the world
	   - control ten wonders that require no state religion
	   - don't allow more than half of your cities to have a religion
	# Secularism
	   - Tolerance: control the temples of seven different religions
	   - Humanism: make sure there are 20 universities in secular civilizations
	   - Modernization: be first to enter the industrial and modern eras
I tried to come up with fitting names for the goals, it didn't always work (see Polytheism).

A couple of goals could need changes, some ideas:

1. Hindu population goal: I'd prefer something that doesn't use absolute numbers. My best idea is "Make sure three of the five most populous cities in the world are Hindu".
2. Orthodox culture goal: maybe they could use the analogue: "make sure three of the five most cultured cities in the world are Orthodox".
3. I thought the Confucian and Taoist goals were very interesting when I first saw them, but after reading more about them, maybe it's a better idea to switch them around a bit. Confucianism would then focus more on state and civil society oriented goals while Taoism would have the more faith/piety related things.
4. Polytheism and Secularism still need work. Secularism should have a tech progress goal imo, but the era stuff doesn't fit. First to finish the tech tree after all?
5. For Polytheism, the foreign religion stuff from the third goal is essentially implicit in having pagan temples because they are lost by religion spread anyway. Maybe something related to classical philosophy? Settled scientists/academies?

Alternate Confucianism/Taoism idea:

Confucianism:
- Make sure there are four other civilizations with Confucian state religion
- Acquire a combined Confucian and Taoist shrine income of 40
- Control five academies

Taoism:
- Have friendly relations with five civilizations
- Have three wonders in the Tao holy city
- Have legendary culture in the Tao holy city
 
Leoreth said:
I've just committed a first implementation with the following goals:
Spoiler :
Code: 
	# Protestantism
	   - Enlightenment: be first to discover Liberalism, Constitution and Economics
	   - Work Ethic: make sure there are five great merchants and five great engineers settled in Protestant civilizations
	   - Religious Freedom: make sure that at least half of all civilizations are Protestant or secular
	# Catholicism
	   - Holy See: be Pope for 100 turns
	   - Holy Land: control the Catholic shrine and make sure 12 great prophets are settled in Catholic civilizations
	   - Holy Mission: make sure 50% of the world territory are controlled by Catholic civilizations
	# Orthodoxy
	   - Patriarchates: build four Orthodox cathedrals
	   - Iconography: control three cities with influential culture
	   - Communion: make sure there are no Catholic civilizations
	# Islam
	   - Shahada: spread Islam to 50%
	   - Hajj: settle seven great people in the Muslim holy city
	   - Jihad: control five shrines
	# Hinduism
	   - Varna: settle five different great people in the Hindu holy city
	   - Artha: experience 24 turns of golden age
	   - Kama: have a total population of 500 million
	# Buddhism
	   - Sila: be at peace for 100 turns
	   - Nirvana: have the highest approval rating for 100 turns
	   - Middle Way: have no furious or annoyed relations with any civilization
	# Confucianism
	   - Harmony: have friendly relations with five civilizations
	   - Ritual: control the Confucian and Taoist shrine and combine their income to 40 gold
	   - Five Classics: settle five great people in the Confucian holy city
	# Taoism
	   - Virtue: make sure there are two other Taoist civilizations
	   - Three Treasures: build three wonders in the Taoist holy city
	   - Immortality: have legendary culture in the Taoist holy city
	# Zoroastrianism
	   - Adar: acquire six incense resources
	   - Mathra: spread Zoroastrianism to 20%
	   - Shahnameh: have legendary culture in the Zoroastrian holy city
	# Polytheism
	   - make sure there are 15 pagan temples in the world
	   - control ten wonders that require no state religion
	   - don't allow more than half of your cities to have a religion
	# Secularism
	   - Tolerance: control the temples of seven different religions
	   - Humanism: make sure there are 20 universities in secular civilizations
	   - Modernization: be first to enter the industrial and modern eras
I tried to come up with fitting names for the goals, it didn't always work (see Polytheism).


A couple of goals could need changes, some ideas:

1. Hindu population goal: I'd prefer something that doesn't use absolute numbers. My best idea is "Make sure three of the five most populous cities in the world are Hindu".
2. Orthodox culture goal: maybe they could use the analogue: "make sure three of the five most cultured cities in the world are Orthodox".
3. I thought the Confucian and Taoist goals were very interesting when I first saw them, but after reading more about them, maybe it's a better idea to switch them around a bit. Confucianism would then focus more on state and civil society oriented goals while Taoism would have the more faith/piety related things.
4. Polytheism and Secularism still need work. Secularism should have a tech progress goal imo, but the era stuff doesn't fit. First to finish the tech tree after all?
5. For Polytheism, the foreign religion stuff from the third goal is essentially implicit in having pagan temples because they are lost by religion spread anyway. Maybe something related to classical philosophy? Settled scientists/academies?
snip
Click to expand...

1. Have three cities size 25 or 30?
2. Influential culture is incredibley easy. Btw, the tech goal for Protestantism still seems wrong.
3. No opinion.
4. Secularism is probably the toughest. Tolerance is ok, I would change the Humanism to 20 Universities and Observatories, otherwise it might be too easy. Perhaps finishing tech tree should then be last. Or something like that make sure that no more than three civs have the same State Religion...
5. Control three Academies (Egyptian, Greek and Roman). I would also change the wonder goal to: Control seven Classical Wonders (that require pantheon that is), the name for that comes to mind pretty easily. ;) The last one can then be to control the Pagan temples.
 
Leoreth said:
I've just committed a first implementation with the following goals:
Code: 
	# Protestantism
	   - Enlightenment: be first to discover Liberalism, Constitution and Economics
	   - Work Ethic: make sure there are five great merchants and five great engineers settled in Protestant civilizations
	   - Religious Freedom: make sure that at least half of all civilizations are Protestant or secular
	# Catholicism
	   - Holy See: be Pope for 100 turns
	   - Holy Land: control the Catholic shrine and make sure 12 great prophets are settled in Catholic civilizations
	   - Holy Mission: make sure 50% of the world territory are controlled by Catholic civilizations
	# Orthodoxy
	   - Patriarchates: build four Orthodox cathedrals
	   - Iconography: control three cities with influential culture
	   - Communion: make sure there are no Catholic civilizations
	# Islam
	   - Shahada: spread Islam to 50%
	   - Hajj: settle seven great people in the Muslim holy city
	   - Jihad: control five shrines
	# Hinduism
	   - Varna: settle five different great people in the Hindu holy city
	   - Artha: experience 24 turns of golden age
	   - Kama: have a total population of 500 million
	# Buddhism
	   - Sila: be at peace for 100 turns
	   - Nirvana: have the highest approval rating for 100 turns
	   - Middle Way: have no furious or annoyed relations with any civilization
	# Confucianism
	   - Harmony: have friendly relations with five civilizations
	   - Ritual: control the Confucian and Taoist shrine and combine their income to 40 gold
	   - Five Classics: settle five great people in the Confucian holy city
	# Taoism
	   - Virtue: make sure there are two other Taoist civilizations
	   - Three Treasures: build three wonders in the Taoist holy city
	   - Immortality: have legendary culture in the Taoist holy city
	# Zoroastrianism
	   - Adar: acquire six incense resources
	   - Mathra: spread Zoroastrianism to 20%
	   - Shahnameh: have legendary culture in the Zoroastrian holy city
	# Polytheism
	   - make sure there are 15 pagan temples in the world
	   - control ten wonders that require no state religion
	   - don't allow more than half of your cities to have a religion
	# Secularism
	   - Tolerance: control the temples of seven different religions
	   - Humanism: make sure there are 20 universities in secular civilizations
	   - Modernization: be first to enter the industrial and modern eras
I tried to come up with fitting names for the goals, it didn't always work (see Polytheism).

A couple of goals could need changes, some ideas:

1. Hindu population goal: I'd prefer something that doesn't use absolute numbers. My best idea is "Make sure three of the five most populous cities in the world are Hindu".
2. Orthodox culture goal: maybe they could use the analogue: "make sure three of the five most cultured cities in the world are Orthodox".
3. I thought the Confucian and Taoist goals were very interesting when I first saw them, but after reading more about them, maybe it's a better idea to switch them around a bit. Confucianism would then focus more on state and civil society oriented goals while Taoism would have the more faith/piety related things.
4. Polytheism and Secularism still need work. Secularism should have a tech progress goal imo, but the era stuff doesn't fit. First to finish the tech tree after all?
5. For Polytheism, the foreign religion stuff from the third goal is essentially implicit in having pagan temples because they are lost by religion spread anyway. Maybe something related to classical philosophy? Settled scientists/academies?

Alternate Confucianism/Taoism idea:

Confucianism:
- Make sure there are four other civilizations with Confucian state religion
- Acquire a combined Confucian and Taoist shrine income of 40
- Control five academies

Taoism:
- Have friendly relations with five civilizations
- Have three wonders in the Tao holy city
- Have legendary culture in the Tao holy city
Click to expand...

1) The Juros proposal is ok.
2) How about "establish 1 great artist per city with orthodox monastery"?
3) Ok.
4)
Secularism:

Finish the tech tree or "Be the first to enter industrial, modern and future era." I'd propose the renaiscance too, but later civs can't achieve it (except if it is preacieved in them).

Polytheism:
5)
Legent: Make sure there are 15 pagan temples in the world.
Heroism: Build the heroic epic in your capital and estabilsh three great generals.
Classical wonders: Control ten world wonders that require no state religion and three academies.

I was thinking about this goal:
Ancient philosophy: Build three academies and 15 libraries.
But I concluded that ancient philosophy emerged in cities that had wonders. So the philosophy goal should be merged in the wonder goal.

As far as the "Don't allow more than half of your cities to have a religion" it may be called "Paganism" or "Idol ritual"
 
How about renaming Polytheism URV to Animism? Because Hindu is a polytheist religion.

Veneration of the Dead: make sure there are 15 pagan temples in the world
10 Great Temples of the World : control ten wonders that require no state religion
Listen to Ancestors : don't allow more than half of your cities to have a religion (alternative: Resistance)

I think the URV should be designed to complete before the modern religion as we know it (Christian, Islam, etc) plays a dominant role in the world (outside India)..
Here's an interesting article
.
 
That wouldn't be fitting as the Polytheism goals require Pantheon and represent those civs, especially the classical Mediterranean.
 
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