Alternative History: "Preussen" at the Black Sea?

In the 1200s in territories north of the Danube - north of Bulgaria - there lived the nomadic Cumans, who were among the last Pagans of Europe.

In 1211 Hungarian King Andrew II invited the Teutonic Order to the area called Burzenland (Land of Bors), near the Hungarian-Cuman border. The purpose of inviting the Teutonic Order was of course to help the Hungarians in their fight against Pagan Cumans. But in 1225 Hungarian King expelled the T.O. from his lands, and that's why it was invited to Land of Chełmno in Northern Poland in 1228 (where they started the conquest of Pagan Prussians and Lithuanians).

During their short presence in the Land of Bors, the Teutonic Order started to bring in settlers from the Holy Roman Empire to their new realm, as well as settlers from other territories. German settlers from the HRE became known later as the Transylvanian Saxons (even though most of the settlers from the HRE actually came from Franconia and only a smaller group came from Saxony), and survived in that area as an ethnic minority until the 20th century.

The Teutonic Order was invited to the Burzenland by Hungarian king and Hungarian king wanted to see the Teutonic Knights as his subjects. The Teutonic Knights had quite a different point of view and planned to establish their own, independent state in the area (like they later did in Prussia and Livonia). This is why in 1224 the Teutonic Order started to seek support from the Pope, and wanted the Pope to recognize their independence from Hungary. Hungarian King Andrew II quickly realized what was going on, and in 1225 he expelled the Teutonic Order from his realm, before it managed to grow powerful enough to oppose him.

During their relatively short presence in the Burzenland, the Teutonic Order managed to establish numerous strongholds and towns, which provided a good basis for establishing a full-fledged state and a good source of manpower for future expansion. In the map below is the Teutonic Order's state in 1224:

I wonder what prospects for expansion it would have had, had it not been dismantled by king Andrew in 1225 ???

Cumans - just like Prussians - were also divided for many tribes. But I suppose conquering such nomadic people would be more difficult.

In the conquest of Prussians by the Teutonic Order crucial support role was played by European crusaders - mainly from German and Polish states.

I wonder if in this territory they could also count for a large-scale support provided by crusaders?



A more detaled map of Burzenland, with exact places where Teutonic Order's strongholds and towns were established (and the list of their names):



I can already imagine the Battle of Southern Grunwald - Byzantine Empire (or maybe Hungary or Turks?) vs the Teutonic Order.

In alternative history, of course. Because in reality King Andrew ruined everything!

soo , apparently the Teutons blamed their defeat in 1410 to a cavalry charge by 200 000 Tatars ?

Except for the part when about 45 years later, a certain tribe called Tatars decided to screw with everyone who inhabited Southern Europe, including Kingdom of Bulgaria.

So, the answer would be "no".

So you say that the Mongol Invasion was going to destroy them if they stayed there instead of moving north to Prussia?

Domen said:

So you say that the Mongol Invasion was going to destroy them if they stayed there instead of moving north to Prussia?

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Yeah, pretty much. That part of Ukraine is in the way of Mongols, later on Tatars, and there were already the Khazars, Slavs and all the other peoples who weren't interested in having some people who've never seen until now to rule them and convert them forcefully into Catholicism.

And even, if by some amazing way the Teutons survive, there's another thing(or, should we say, things). First, the Ottoman Empire dealing with the Byzantines, and all the other Balkan states, then later on, eventual Habsburg expansion into Romania (very, very unlikely).

Basically, it's rather unnecessary overreaching expansion into hostile territory.

But they survived even worse things in Prussia in real history.

During one of Prussian uprisings against the Teutonic Order in 1264, Teutonic knights lost everything they achieved until that time, except for 5 strongholds (Christburg, Elbing, Thorn, Rehden and Konigsberg), inside which they managed to survive until the relief force of crusaders came.

Later they gradually recovered.

In case of the Mongol invasion, they would also survive inside at least several castles, until the Mongol withdrawal after Batu Khan's death.

After all, Hungary was not conquered by the Mongols. So neither that Teutonic state within Hungary was going to be conquered.

who weren't interested in having some people who've never seen until now to rule them and convert them forcefully into Catholicism.

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Prussians, Latvians and Estonians were also not interested, but still they got forcefully converted.

First, the Ottoman Empire dealing with the Byzantines

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Maybe the Teutonic Order would prevent the fall of the Byzantine Empire, actually. If they were willing to cooperate.

Remember that the Teutonic Order was a powerful organization which had its outposts everywhere in the Holy Roman Empire.

So it was not only limited to its own territories, but also had its numerous outposts in many European states.

They also had castles in the Holy Land, but of course the Holy Land eventually fell back into Muslim hands.

Domen said:

But they survived even worse things in Prussia in real history.

During one of Prussian uprisings against the Teutonic Order in 1264, Teutonic knights lost everything they achieved until that time, except for 5 strongholds (Christburg, Elbing, Thorn, Rehden and Konigsberg), inside which they managed to survive until the relief force of crusaders came.

In case of the Mongol invasion, they would also survive inside at least several castles, until the Mongol withdrawal after Batu Khan's death.

After all, Hungary was not conquered by the Mongols. So neither that Teutonic state within Hungary was going to be conquered.

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That was in Prussia. Or Poland. That's not either of those, this is a populated with hostile Slavs, Khazars and etc, peoples who would oppose the Teutonic Knights. It's equal to going to 15th century in the middle of Ottoman Empire and saying "You know what? We totally have to make a crusade and evangelize everyone in Catholicism!"

Besides, the Mongols never went into Hungary, due to the death of their beloved leader. Also, I am sure that some parties (notably, Byzantine Empire and later on, Russia) that would wish to eliminate a Catholic stronghold in what they view as "our land".

Orthodox and Catholic forces cooperating? Does not compute, since the Great Schism.

That was in Prussia. Or Poland.

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In Prussia. And in Livonia as well (in territories of modern Latvia and Estonia).

his is a populated with hostile Slavs, Khazars and etc, peoples who would oppose the Teutonic Knights.

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Slavs were Christians already. Khazars did not exist already - Cumans, you mean. We are talking about 1200s, remember.

Besides, the Mongols never went into Hungary, due to the death of their beloved leader.

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Yeah, so they would also not be able to occupy the Teutonic state, which would be located in the eastern part of Hungary.

some parties (notably, Byzantine Empire and later on, Russia) that would wish to eliminate a Catholic stronghold in what they view as "our land".

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And those wishes would remain only wishes perhaps ??? The Byzantine Empire would collapse under Ottoman attacks as in reality, you just wrote this.

Russia was conquered by the Mongols and was fragmented into many principalities at that time - each of them too weak to oppose.

Orthodox and Catholic forces cooperating? Does not compute, since the Great Schism.

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OK - what about Catholic and Catholic forces cooperating against Orthodox forces ???

Constantinople was in Catholic hands (Latin Empire) between 1204 (the fourth crusade) and 1261:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_Empire

Maybe with Teutonic Order's help, it could remain in Catholic hands much longer than until 1261 - political map of the 1200s:

The Teutonic Order would cooperate with other crusaders - including the Latin Empire and other Knight Orders - against Turks and Byzantines.

It would also cooperate with the Republic of Venice, because the main headquarters of the Teutonic Order was in the city of Venice.

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At first the Teutonic Order would surely push towards the Black Sea, to seize control of the mouth of the Danube River.

After that they construct a port at the Black Sea coast, and they can already be supplied via sea by their allies - Venice & others:

and am pretty sure it would be a cavalry charge by two million Tatars .

Or 200 million tatars. Dysmyriades myriadon666, to be exact

oh , why not ? It would feel like the end of the world , right ?

R16 - the part about Tatars was a Teutonic Order's propaganda.

Domen, you're still ignoring the facts. There's a time window between the years of 1245-1261. During that, the Teutonic knights would be opposed by virtually everyone, and considering how they're heavier, they would have troubles with the Slavic forces, which are generally lighter (as the Latin Knights soon learned in Ohrid, 1204, where the recently freed Bulgarians kicked their asses. Then again, it was one big swamp.). Also, as I mentioned, the population is hostile. They're Slavic, Orthodox. They aren't the pagans living in Poland, they were Orthodox with about 300-400 years of tradition, and they aren't just going to give up. So, for 20 years, they'll have to keep their strongholds, support the Latin Empire, suppress the population, convert them into Catholicism...

Basically, it won't really work.

Did I mention the raving nomads from the Asian steppes? I think I did.

They aren't the pagans living in Poland

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What pagans in Poland? Poland was Catholic since 966.

as the Latin Knights soon learned in Ohrid, 1204, where the recently freed Bulgarians kicked their asses.

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Care to elaborate on this? I did not find any battle of Ohrid in 1204.

Quite the contrary, here is what I found about Ohrid in 1204:

https://flagspot.net/flags/mk-ohri.html

In 1204, the Crusaders seized Constantinople and Ohrid was incorporated to the Latin Kingdom of Salonica.

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So what event are you even talking about? The Latin conquest of Ohrid in 1204?

and they aren't just going to give up.

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I suggest you might read some books about the real history of the Teutonic Order in Prussia before continuing this discussion.

You might start from the most recent edition of "The Northern Crusades" by Eric Christiansen - a book in English.

As you will learn, the Teutonic Order actually lost more battles than it won, and despite this fact it still managed to eventually take control of Prussia.

So your idea that defeats in battles could stop them, is wrong.

What enabled them to win wars despite losing battles, was the policy of fortifying their territories.

Building large numbers of strongholds, prevented the enemy from regaining once taken territory - even after smashing the Order in some battle.

For example in 1260 combined forces of the Order from Livonia under Birchard von Hornhausen and from Prussia under Henry Botel suffered a catastrophic defeat against Samogitians and Lithuanians in the battle of Durbe. Two years later the Great Prussian Uprising under Herkus Monte errupted:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Durbe

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_uprisings#The_Great_Prussian_Uprising_.281260.E2.80.931274.29



All of that somehow did not prevent the Catholics from establishing full control over Prussia and Livonia by 1283.

OK, I was wrong on the battle of Ohrid - it's actually Battle of Adrianople. And it was on 1205. Nevertheless, the much more lighter forces of the Bulgarians managed to win over the Crusaders.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Adrianople_(1205)

I must admit, I do not have much knowledge about the Teutonic knights and their history, and I'll check out the book you recommended to me.

Ok, thanks for the link - I didn't know about this battle.

But according to the battle plan which can be found in that link, Bulgarian army also had heavy troops:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Battle_of_Adrianople_(1205).png


There is heavy infantry and heavy cavalry in the Bulgarian army here.

It also seems, that Bulgarian army was much bigger than the Latin Empire's army.

Domen said:

Ok, thanks for the link - I didn't know about this battle.

But according to the battle plan which can be found in that link, Bulgarian army also had heavy troops:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Battle_of_Adrianople_(1205).png

Spoiler :

There is heavy infantry and heavy cavalry in the Bulgarian army here.

It also seems, that Bulgarian army was much bigger than the Latin Empire's army.

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To be fair, this battle isn't so important because it had some sort of heroic 2 to 1 ratios or something - it's more important due to the fact that the Latin Empire's expansion into the Balkans was stopped, and because "the myth of the undefeated knights" was broken. Then again, those knights and their myth and what they truly are is something still pending to be fully revealed.

They weren't "undefeated". You can blame the glorious money-worshiping nobles at Constantinople for even getting a force with 4K knights to do anything against a city with walls that themselves were larger than the cities those knights came from.
Basically there were 36K Cataphracts at the time. They somehow got ordered not to attack the stupid latin 4K knights because 'OMG those knights are not fleeing upon seeing our massive force, they must be super-brave!' :/

Kyriakos said:

They weren't "undefeated". You can blame the glorious money-worshiping nobles at Constantinople for even getting a force with 4K knights to do anything against a city with walls that themselves were larger than the cities those knights came from.
Basically there were 36K Cataphracts at the time. They somehow got ordered not to attack the stupid latin 4K knights because 'OMG those knights are not fleeing upon seeing our massive force, they must be super-brave!' :/

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I hate to break it to you, but even with the fact that "the walls that were bigger than the cities they came from", the Knights not just broke through them, but they also held it for some 75 years.

Besides the point, even after Constantinople was retaken, it was over. The times of glory during Basily II and his heirs was long gone.