Challenge-XII-05

[IMG=right]http://hof.civfanatics.net/civ4/images/greatgeneral.jpg[/IMG]While the general Hall of Fame is an ongoing competition, we are running a series of ten games called the Hall of Fame Challenge Series. Standard Hall of Fame rules (*) still apply, but any games meeting the settings of one of the games will be counted towards the Challenge.


Settings:

• Victory Condition: Conquest (though all victory conditions must be enabled)
• Difficulty: Warlord
• Starting Era: Ancient
• Map Size: Large
• Speed: Normal
• Map Type: Lakes
• Required: One City Challenge
• Must Not Be Checked: No Barbarians
• Civ: Babylon (Hammurabi)
• Opponents: Must include America (Washington), Arabia (Saladin), Aztec (Montezuma), Carthage (Hannibal), Celt (Boudica), Egypt (Hatshepsut), England (Churchill), France (Louis XIV), Germany (Bismark), Greece (Alexander), Mongolia (Genghis Khan), Ottoman (Suleiman), Portugal (Joao), Russia (Stalin)
• Version: 3.19.003
• Date: 1st December 2013 to 1st March 2014

Must not play as Inca.
The earliest finish date wins, with score as a tiebreaker.

man, I thought HA would win this, but there are a lot of AI and with only 1 city, you can't build all that many HA.

I found that getting Lit for HE really helped and finding a city where you can make 17 hammers helps (then you can get 2 HA every 3 turns with HE) - but I am pretty sure you need some slow movers, too - I ran into LB and then everything stalled out.

This is a lot more of a challenge than I expected.

man - I thought this would be a nice easy one. My last game? Accidentally gifted most of my stack to Louis...

current plan is to build some infra - granary, lib - get HA for the first couple of civs, get oracle for CS, then HE. Dunno that I would have gotten anywhere with it, but it was nice, with horse and Iron in the fat cross along with ivory and gold.

Question: Why Hammurabi? For an OCC, I guess Organized is useless. And his UU is kinda weak for the task: it's a very early unit (you can't rush 14 civs with archers, and being OCC better not rush any) and a somewhat defensive UU (despite the anti-melee bonus), not ideal for Conquest Victory

Another question: is it mandatory to play BtS? I think Vanilla/Warlords would be more suitable for this one. Standard HoF games allow vanilla 1.74, what about this challenge?

If the BTS version is stated in the challenge requirements then it is required. I think Challenges are generally always BTS, while some of the Gauntlets may give an option for older versions. Ofc, you can always just play random HOF games on any version. (I'm not sure why Van/War is any more suitable though)

As for Hammurabi, challenges are challenges and are not always about matching a Leader to some specific condition(s) that are amenable to that leader. I think the staff likes to mix things up so it could simply be that Hammy hasn't been played in the challenges for some time. Or maybe the fact that Hammy's traits/uniques are counter-intuitive to OCC play. Thus, it basically makes him neutral to the conditions of the challenge.

This challenge was more grueling than I expected for Warlords. It's not that it's not easily winnable, but how long it would take to do so because of OCC. Key limitations being Production and Power Rating, which impacts capitulations. In some cases, I just simply had to destroy the AI. And...ugh...I made a mistake as I was about to Oracle Feudalism. Failed to see that although I showed Monarchy at 1 turn (Oracle at 1turn), I did not actually have enough gold to complete Monarchy, but didn't catch it. Feud turned out to be not that valuable early though.

BtS does have a 5 national wonder limit for OCC that Warlords and Vanilla do not have. Also, BtS seige units can not kill units when attacking, but Warlords and Vanilla seige do kill units they are attacking. These are the major differences between BtS and Warlords/Vanilla that comes to mind right now.

Good luck!

Sun Tzu Wu

lymond said:

If the BTS version is stated in the challenge requirements then it is required.

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You're right, I failed to see the 3.19.003 requirement.

lymond said:

I'm not sure why Van/War is any more suitable though

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Sun Tzu Wu said:

BtS does have a 5 national wonder limit for OCC that Warlords and Vanilla do not have.

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That's why

lymond said:

As for Hammurabi, challenges are challenges and are not always about matching a Leader to some specific condition(s) that are amenable to that leader.

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This is my 2nd HOF/Challenge game ever. The previous was Lizzy and Space Race, quite a nice match. Also *none* of the AI Civs were Aggressive. Both led me to believe Challenges had matching Civs/AIs. I'll really miss Industrious (or Philo) for an OCC.

lymond said:

This challenge was more grueling than I expected for Warlords. It's not that it's not easily winnable, but how long it would take to do so because of OCC. Key limitations being Production and Power Rating, which impacts capitulations.

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Yes, 14 civs will take a long time. I wonder which unit will be able to steamroll the map. I just did a quick and dirty test-run till 1AD: Chariots are a complete failure, and looks like HA are also weak (damn Spearmen!). I wonder if Knights can do the job or if I must research till Cavalry... eww.

Btw, how to tech in an OCC/Lakes??? I've read that cottages are a bit useless (make sense), and no overseas trade routes. So I guess I'm bound to a few scientists. Besides aggressive trading, what can I do to avoid being the underdog?

Yep, IND or PHIL is the usual ideal. I like Ram, Peter and Biz for OCC (I like EXP)

Best thing I think would be to roll a typical HOF start - gold/gems and lots of food, but try to get stone in BFC or 2nd-tier. Build Mids and run Rep. I usually don't cottage for OCC, but then most OCCs I've done are for Space, but a few cottages here for this game may help depending on the land you get.

I try taking out at least 2 AIs with Warriors and then worker/settler steal choke. You don't need too many workers, but a nice group of them will help build roads to the AIs.

I tried a HA rush the first time as I thought it would be the deal on this level, but I underestimated the limited production and timing to get a sufficient army to be effective.

MestreLion said:

Question: Why Hammurabi?

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I can tell you why we are stuck with Hammurabi for this challenge. I suggested a few games for this series and randomly distributed the leaders/civs I haven’t played for HOF (League of Nations) over the suggested games. OCC/Conquest/Lakes/Hammurabi was one of the suggestions that got picked. By making this warlords with max opponents and large map size, shulec made sure that this is the most underestimated game in the series.

lymond said:

I made a mistake as I was about to Oracle Feudalism. […] Feud turned out to be not that valuable early though.

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I got Feudalism from Oracle, switched to Vassalage and build some Guerrilla 2 Longbows to choke my neighbors. I only had 4th ring iron, and was glad to have some longbows to vassalize the first few AI. Cover promoted longbows aren’t too bad vs AI that can’t hook up metal. On another map (with earlier iron access), Oracle for Civil Service or Machinery is probably better.

lymond said:

I try taking out at least 2 AIs with Warriors

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I did that too in my first couple attempts. The result was that some other AI resettled their land, and I figured I was wasting too much early production on warriors. It felt much better to not kill any AI by design and instead vassalize them, so that they can resettle their land by themselves. I even gifted a few of my stolen workers back trying to speed up my vassals' expansion (not worth it).

Yeah, I'm not sure if the warrior rush was worth it as opposed to just focusing on get your little empire set up and teching to some more viable rush unit.

I gifted a lot of workers as well to vassals, but ultimately the vassals did little to help me out. Maybe in large part due to the fact that I almost had to completely wipe out an AI in order to vassal them and in a case or two had to demolish them entirely.

1854, and man, this game is hard!

Pollina was right: this is a very underestimated challenge. Don't be fooled by Warlords, for me this was harder than most of my Emperor games. I tried 6 times (3 till 1AD) and wrote a huge text of guidelines and strategies.

A few notes about my game, both as advise for newbies like me and request for feedback from veterans:

• Key points: Get tech lead (100% science 100% turns), never lose units (we're capped at 1/turn, must built up), Gold is never a real issue.
  
  
• Settings: no events or huts. In my previous attempts events were mostly bad ones. Slave Revolt can really cripple a OCC. As for huts, I think they would benefit the AI more than myself. (how many huts can you pop in a map with 14 other civs?). Does this make sense or are huts biased near player in map generation?
  
  
• City: Farms + Mines only, then Water+Wind mills. A very brief window for Workshops if needed for 1 turn units before Biology. Not a single cottage. Gold/Gems in BFC is vital, as plenty of food (had 2 Crab, 1 Hill Sheep, 1 FP). Marble or Stone (preferably both) also required. I had no Stone, so Pyramids were hard. Glad I had 12 forests in BFC, chopped like 8 for the Stone wonders. OTOH, no Iron or Horse, that really hurt me in the long run. First vassal with Axemen only and not a single Knight/Cuira. Cavalry only for 4th vassal onwards.
  
  
• Diplomacy (and religion) was irrelevant the whole game. I founded Confu only, never built its shrine, let each AI found its own and war each other. Trade is also very limited: in a crowded map few AIs will have resources to sell, and none had useful techs. Most likely be all annoyed (multiple "you declared war on our friend!"), so make sure power is > 0.7 in BCs/early ADs to avoid DoWs. Not easy while building wonders, so pump a few 1 turn units between. Rejected all tech/money requests (need to monopolize the lead), joined wars if nearby and made sure to backstab the aggressor (to kill their main stack) and vassalize the defender before them.
  
  
• World Wonders: Pyramids/Rep and Oracle/CS/Bureau for a huge tech lead. Parthenon for GPP, Great Library. Also Great Lighthouse since I was coastal. And ToA since I had marble and was so cheap. Trade Routes really help science. Taj Mahal + MoM to boost Golden Ages, but each attempt I played I regret them more and more. Even with Marble I'm not sure they are worth it. Big investiment, little return (production overflows anyway) and "gene pool" contamination really hurt me this last time. Late Pentagon for 17XP out-of-the-box. Sweet but not sure if better than 5~7 early Infrantry. Lost Hanging Gardens (no stone, so not a priority) and Sanklore (no biggie).
  
  
• National Wonders: Oxford + National Epic, Globe Theater + National Park, IronWorks (a bit overkill). Early Heroic Epic instead of late IW is perhaps better. Also Red Cross instead of NP is viable (Medicine is next to Biology, +3 health may be enough, and Medic I promotion is sweet. And no crippling IW's Coal). Also early West Point is very tempting.
  
  
• Civics: Rep + Bureaucracy ASAP, of course. Slavery then Caste. Free Market (or nothing) then State Property. OR at first for infrastructure and then only once again later (during Taj's GA for the remaining buildings), Pacifism the rest.
  
  
• Great People: settled everyone but 3 (Golden Ages), and 2~3 bulbs (Electricity and Industrialism I guess). And Academy with 1st GS of course. 1st GG was settled for 5XP, then Military Academy, then settled until 17XP. No Warlord (my Medic III units were not so useful in last attempts). Very few Merchants and Priests made Gold more troubling than my previous attempts.
  
  
• Wars: Early wars for stealing workers only, start vassalassing neighbours right after Feudalism with Axes/Maceman, then steamroll with Cavalry + Rifleman/Infantry. AI was stuck with Longbowmans and a very few Musketeers. Faced only 2 rifleman the whole game, and not a single Canon. Some Knights + Cuirassers in late game. Aim for their main stack, avoid razing cities bordering rival AIs. CityRaider 1/2/3 is a must for melee, since not available for gunpowder.

My pros:

• Lost very few military units. Only 23 total. Top was 9 Cavalry (3 in a clicking mistake towards Boudica's main stack range, 2 suicide in final push) and... 8 Workers! The rest was mostly Siege units.
  
• Amazing start. City was nearly perfect, plenty food, coastal with only 1 regular coast tile. Stole 8 workers with warriors (unfortunately I've built 2 myself assuming stealing would notbe successful or take too long). Built Pyramids+Oracle extremely fast for my newbie standards. Apart from MapFinder I could not be better.

My cons:

• RNG was unreal. Not only 3 GAs (2 with odds below 15%) and Great Spy with less than 1%, but also lost 8 to RNG above 96% (5 above 98%), 1 of them was 99.9%! 5 may not seem much, but it's more than 1/5 of all my military losses!
  
• State Property was vital in my previous attempts, but I was doing so well in late game that I just forgot to pick Communism right after SciMeth/Biology, doing so only much later. The missed 7 extra food could have resulted in earlier Infrantry or even Tanks.
  
• Crippled strategic resources: no Horse, Iron or Oil in cultural border. Delayed Macemen, no HAs/Knights, no Tanks/Bombers at all. Wars were painfully slow, had to do many in parallel.
  
• Too much Wonders perhaps? I could live without Taj+MoM and perhaps ToA and Pentagon. And IW. That's 20+ more units that could have shaved a few turns.

And that's it. Any comments, opinions, suggestions?

Oh, last but not least, huge congrats for Pollina and hhawk. Any date before 1700 in this game is simply amazing. 1400 is incredible!

This challenge is really frustrating me! I cannot seem to get anybody to vassal! I have a 2.3 power rating versus Wash, I have gotten him down to just his capital. I have Knights and Mace ready to take it, I bribed Han to make peace and I am not at war with any body else. WTH else do I have to do? My previous attempts at this have been frustrated by not being able to keep the other civs from resettling the land of the civs I just conquered, so I figure vassaling has got to be the key to this one. I am having my best start so far on this and I really don't want to blow it.

Whew! He finally gave it up. He did sneak another city out there. Once I took it and he was finally down to his capital, he gave in. On to Hatty.

Well doesn't that beat all? Game crash. Just when I was starting to roll with Cuirs and only Sal had made it to Fued. Like that gameplan though. Guess I will reboot and try again.