Nobles' Club CXLI: Augustus of Rome

At noble, the AI SoD are quite small, so, you could have more than one attacking stack.
Most of the time, I have two stacks, and I try to open 2 fronts at the same time, to divide AIs forces in two directions.

There is an other tactic that I use from time to time, when I get dragged in a war unprepared, is to send small stacks (early in the games) with 2 axemen, 1 or 2 spearmen and 2 chariots. I move this stack on protective grounds (hills, forests, jungle) and I try to destroy AI's improvements (copper/iron/cottage/..) quickly before retreating to high ground. This could slow down an AI while you are preparing your stack.
 
Spoiler :

As I said in my query about warmongering strategy, I restarted to get the 'mids and go with Police State. At the point of my last message I was attacking the Zulu and dealing with his SoD, which turned into an SoS (Stack of Suicide).
Spoiler chronology :
Here's the chronology for the whole restarted game:
  • 4000 BC: settled in place. Went for worker techs, delaying Iron Working until after BW, agriculture, animal husbandry, wheel, pottery, and masonry.
  • 1925 BC: finish Stonehenge in Rome
  • 1250 BC: finish Pyramids in Rome, switch to Police State
  • 440 BC: Trade Aesthetics for Alphabet:
  • 425 BC: attack the Ottomans
  • 320 BC: With Sulieman down to one weak city, I extorted Monarchy for 10 turns of peace. I tried getting his other techs too (Archery and Polytheism), but he wouldn't go for it.
  • 185 BC: after healing my praetorians, gathering them back into a stack, and waiting for a few more to be built, I attacked Shaka. Took a border city and Ulundi, then got into the state with his SoD that I mentioned in my query about warmongering strategy.
  • 65 BC: Zulu SoD suicides against 3 Praetorians in Ulundi.
  • 5BC: Cathy offered Currency for Code of Laws and some money; this was my counter-offer:
  • 40 AD: Repeating my strategy from the Ottoman wars, I extorted techs from Shaka when he had one city left. I'll take him out when I've recovered a bit.
The two wars together cost a lot of undue fretting plus 5 of my 24 Praetorians. Of the 19 prats left, too many are on garrison duty.
Status as of 40 AD:
Spoiler :
  • Charts. I've directed all my limited espionage against Nappy to figure out how strong he is, but that will take a while until I get courthouses online. Cathy is worryingly strong, especially since she'll attack at Pleased.
  • Demographics. I'm ahead in production, troops, and land, but not especially far ahead of the 2nd army (likely Cathy's).
  • Diplomacy. There are two religious blocks at the moment: the buddhists (Napoleon, Boudica, and Shaka) and the Hindus (me, Isabella, and Cathy).
    Spoiler glance screen :

  • Techs: Nobody wants to trade at the moment, but I'l somewhat ahead in the tech race as far as I can tell.
I need to pick a target (Boudicca or Cathy), and gather my troops back into a stack, which will require some garrison troops or else leaving some cities open while they build their own garrison. I'm waffling over who to attack next. Cathy is the bigger threat, but Boudica would be easier and give me a 2nd front from which to attack Russia (which according to the warmongering advice upthread is a good idea).
Advice welcome.
 

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@dalamb
Spoiler :
A problem is that there is sort of a lovefest going on. I'm not sure about the AI-details here, when the various one can be bribed, but you may get in a two-front war when you declare on somebody. Everybody like Cathy, and everybody bar Isabella like Napoleon and Boudica. Based on my own game I'd recommend taking out Catherine at this point, as she is probably the strongest (though Napoleon is likely to have a big army because he is a unit spammer), but I'm not sure how this would work out, and if Boudica declares on you too, it could be tough. Would be good if you could get somebody to pleased and beg gold for a 10-turn treaty before declaring.

You are not taking advantage of resource trading opportunities. There is gold per turn to be had, and :) and :health: to be gained, giving you more leeway for whipping and sending out garrison units. Haven't you been trading resources at all? I see none in the screen when opening the game. Over time this will improve relations with AIs. You can get +2 for this, and at least +1.

I gave wheat to Boudica for 3gpt, and iron to Napoleon for 3gpt (he has metal anyway). To Catherine: sheep for 2gpt, crab for corn, and deer for another 3gpt (for some reason she got another 3gpt after one of the deals, originally she only had 2gpt available).

This gives you an additional 11 gpt, about the same in health I guess, but unfortunately no more happiness. Maybe that will come in time. Always make sure you check the trading screens from time to time, to take advantage of it, as you will improve relations with the AIs over time, and get money and resources in the process. For example, trading away deer for corn is good, as you lose 1 health and gain 2, as you should have granaries everywhere anyway.

Unfortunately there is too much of a lovefest going on, and none are pleased with you, so it wasn't possible to get other AIs to stop trading with each other, but this can be a good tactic to slow down the tech pace (AIs will trade with each other, often), and reduce the lovefest. Even more so with bribed wars ofc, but that's not possible either right now.

I then gave away CoL for 70 and 110 gold to Boudica and Nappy. It bumped Boudica up to cautious. Do this if you wish. They might get CoL soon anyway given the lovefest going on.

By simple math and the demo screen you can actually figure out that Cathy has the biggest army after you. (297000 / 1.27 = 233000). Whoever you go for, you probably need some time to gather your units and heal them up. You have the GW though, so don't have to worry about barbs in the NW, so you can empty those cities. Though you may want some guys there anyway for when you can take out Shaka entirely. Think I'd keep my EP on Cathy instead of Nappy though, as she is the most powerful and is close. You'll get tech research on her much faster than on Nappy given previous EP allocation. And it would be good to know whether she is researching Longbows...

You have a big empire now, so perhaps it would be best to postpone the next war a bit (bar Shaka's imminent death, as he is no use to you as a vassal with only one city) and grow up the infra and economy instead. Grow your army, get out some catas, built courthouses and forges, and then be ready to really stomp some Russian or Celtic behinds with much stronger strength in the future. Another war soon might just become pyrrhic and expensive, and put you too far behind in the tech race. This is epic, which I have little/no experience with, but I think that means you have a bigger window for warfare, so it's probably fine to focus on your economy a bit, as the Praets will be strong for a long time anyway. I was still waging war with Praets post-1000AD, though obviously with Maces and such too. But behind Cannons anything works, and CR3 Praets are very durable.

Unfortunate you can't currently trade for Poly, but think I'd forego Feudalism for the time being and go for Literature instead, then get up HE, NE and GLib. Those will really help your economy and warring abilities. Probably change capital to Istanbul too, though that should have happened already really as it's a much better spot than Rome, and more central to your empire, reducing maintenance costs. If you whip the courthouse there right now you can get 36:hammers: overflow into the Palace, which is something. Obviously a courthouse in a future capital isn't great, but the OF would be.

If the game goes on this long, Istanbul would be an excellent Wall Street city, with the holy shrine, which is already netting you a pretty nice income. Alternatively you could also 3-whip a quick library there, work two scientists, and hope you can get out a GS for an academy, then get out the Palace later. If you want to change capital of course. With all those floodplains, though, it would make a pretty good cottage spot once Buro is in. Food isn't great with just a cow feeding it, but it will be allright with the 6 cottaged FPs.

Otherwise, get out forges in the rest of your cities, and whip some courthouses too. Will help your economy in the recovery, and get you some more espionage.

I see you have a settler ready. Where did you plan on sending him? One option is to found a city 1N of the northern gold, and then get the sheep from Ankara. It won't grow huge, but you can work the gold, and the copper too if you wish.

Especially if the idea is to postpone the next war a bit, you can send a unit down to Russia to check out what she has. Just remember that you'll need a bunch of Catas/Trebs for when the AIs get Longbows, as those things are nasty even for CR Praets, especially the hilly type.

This is probably what I would do, but you can go what path you want here, and you have more experience with Epic than I do ;)

Oh, the capital can be moved to Cumae too, as it's pretty well developed and has a potential 7 FPs to cottage. I'd prefer Istanbul though, as it has more hammers. You also have a ton of forests to chop, which will help to get out infra (like Palace and NE/HE/GLib) and a bigger army.

Ho-hum, just checked your workercount too, and you need more of them. Would be nice to capture some more guys in the war, and you'll probably get some from wiping out Shaka, but you need some workers asap really, as 6 for 12 cities is too little.

Edit: DANG! That got a bit long, but I hope some of it was useful :D
 
@Pangaea: Thanks for all the good advice. A few comments:
Spoiler :
The builder in me is delighted to consolidate for a while.

I goofed -- thinking I need 6 courthouses before moving the capital; that's for the Forbidden Palace. I got CoL in 95 BC just a short while ago; they're high priority now for most cities.

Resource trades are something I know little about, so I'll try pretty much what you said. Something I need to learn and remember to do.

I think I'll keep some of my Combat I troops in the NW to guard agains Boudica while I go after Cathy with CR's. Antium has a settled GG (I have a Woods III axe and a supermedic chariot) so he'll do a library in prep for the HE, then grind out Accuracy catapults for a while.
 
Antium has a settled GG (I have a Woods III axe and a supermedic chariot) so he'll do a library in prep for the HE, then grind out Accuracy catapults for a while.

I assume this is a mistake? Don't put a library there if you intend to build the HE there. Only the most basic infra is needed in the HE city. Granary, barracks, forge. That's it really.

Your game looks in very good shape though, you just need to decide how to proceed from here, and I think it might make good sense to recover the economy and build up a strong army first, then waltz over everybody when you are ready. It's pretty much what I did in my game too, and that worked out allright.
 
I gave up at 1100AD it was only a matter of time before I lost. Everyone ganged up on me,, and I never had time to consolidate my earlier gains. Just as I was winning against one enemy another would declare on me.
 
Dalamb. You're looking pretty solid. Definitely polish off Shaka at some point. Grow cities, build economy, maybe head towards engineering. You've got plenty of prats, build MP archers or chariots to relieve current prats from garrison duty.
If you do get attacked don't forget you've got stone for cheap walls.
 
Monarch, Epic, Huts+Events, 4000 BC - 40 AD

War prep nearly done. Gee that took a long time.
Spoiler :
I wanted to consolidate before attacking, with the following goals:
  1. Get some protection from Boudica in the west -- walls, a few unpromoted or Combat I praets, some archers. (done)
  2. Build the HE in Antium (done)
  3. Build the Great Library in Istanbul and move the capital there (both done)
  4. Continue to build courthouses everywhere, switching to economics when done (build wealth). In progress, but well on its way.
  5. Supplement my existing praet army with archers for city garrison and catapults.
Just finished Feudalism so I can take capitulations, but so did Cathy. She won't have lonbows immediately but Moscow and St. Pete's will surely have some before I fight my way over there. I'll need more suicide cats to be truly ready, but I could start the war as soon as I have 5 or so Accuracy cats for taking down culture and city walls. I think I have plenty of praets given that I have cheap(er) archers to defend cities I leave behind me.

My first attacks would be 3 praets against the poorly-defended Bryansk to the SW of Edirne, and most of the stack against Khabarovsk to the southeast. Then everybody would converge on Rostov, then west to take everything between there and Moscow. I'm a bit worried about leaving cities to the southeast, though -- Cumae needs a defender or two against possible attack from Krasnoyarsk I think, but not more than one praet and an archer or two.

Should I abandon the Mausoleum in Rome and build troops there?
 

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Emperor marathon 900ad.

Spoiler :
Prats+cats are pretty good. Trebs are the icing on the cake:





Nap and Cat wiped out Izzy ages ago. Annihilated Cat, capped Bod and Shaka, capping Nap put me over dom limit.
 
Cseanny:

Spoiler :
Did you take out Suleiman and?or Shaka early with praetorians and then consolidate the gains for a lib->cuir finish? Or was that entirely cuirs? Was playing through this one on deity myself and was settled into a very tidy 7 city lib game> I only remembered I had praetorians around 500BC and probably should have done something with them...


Very nice date in any case, that beats my best Deity date by about 70 yeqrs :)
 
@ Megalurker
Spoiler :
Did you take out Suleiman and?or Shaka early with praetorians and then consolidate the gains for a lib->cuir finish?
This. I opened with an Oracle/Mids/4 city Praetorian push. From 900BC till around 200BC I made 32 Praets and took out Sully, followed by Capitulation Shaka, by which time I had many CRIII units.......taking virtually no losses vs 60% culture, fortified units, on hills at that.
 
Deity 1600 BC

Spoiler :

Ag-BW-W-Pottery-AH, stole workers, and all capital forests went into settlers. I also chopped into the great wall fail gold I just picked up leaving me no forests. I forgot and gave barbs archery late so I kind of cheated by farming barb warriors early.


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Ooh a Roman game! Must play....

to 25AD, Emperor/no huts/normal speed.
Spoiler :

Settled 1W (?)
Researched wheel, masonry, BW IW, agri & pottery... I think that was it before setting slider to 0%.
Settled 2 cities, built Pyramids, revolted into Police state and got on with the warmongering.
After a campaign which wasn't brilliantly executed, I took out the Ottomans. I was about to declare war on the Zulus - better deal with them sooner rather than later plus my army was over there anyway - when they declared war on me! Nice.

I took up to their capital (4 cities left) when I took peace with my economy in dire straights (-30gpt). They gave me all their techs, and with these I was able to trade for currency, thus fixing my economy. Phew.

Russians next perhaps? They are getting quite big and scary...

Here's the map...

West
Spoiler :

NC141 25AD west.png


East
Spoiler :

NC141 25AD east.png


 
Deity 1600 BC

Spoiler :

Ag-BW-W-Pottery-AH, stole workers, and all capital forests went into settlers. I also chopped into the great wall fail gold I just picked up leaving me no forests. I forgot and gave barbs archery late so I kind of cheated by farming barb warriors early.


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Pretty interesting how differently the same start can play out. You were able to grab that sweet spot to the south but in my game (also Deity) it was taken in the first 10 turns. Looks like you're gonna tear this map up. I take it you

Spoiler :
Stole a worker from Suleiman and then harassed him a bit? Worst enemy+only 4 cities
 
Emperor, normal speed, no huts/events, domination 1670
Spoiler :

A fairly easy game. Improved the stone and built some early wonders (SH, TGW, Mids). I had to rex fairly aggressively to grab some land - 9 initial cities - and research was a bit slow as a consequence. I went representation and, since most of my GP were spies, stole a bunch of techs and maintained a slight tech lead up until CS.

Once CS was in, I was able to build the National Epic in a costal town with access to 3 food resources - deer, sheep and fish. I went caste/pacifism and bulbbed Education and 1/2 of Lib. Meanwhile I researched Nationalism and stole the prerequisite techs for MT.

I built a few horse archers and upgraded them to cuirassiers, went police state/slavery/theocracy and whipped out 15 or so more cuirassiers for my initial attack against Russia (I would have attacked a bit earlier but had to wait for a peace treaty to expire).

From that point it was all downhill as my ever-expanding cuirassier army swept one civ after another.

IMO the mids are really an under-rated wonder. Early on you can go representation for good tech rate plus production and later on when war breaks out, police state is a huge advantage.
 
Mega
Spoiler :

Yeah I picked up a W2 warrior from barb warriors because I forgot to give them archery at the start. It allowed me to F with Suleiman in the forested area to the SE keeping him away. Without worker stealing you are slowed down a lot obviously, but I still think rushing the settlers is the way to go here. Maybe 2 workers before settlers. Slows the gold getting online, but you can chop all the rest of the settlers.

I considered oracle, but figured cottages would turn out well as they did and that is a lot of hammers online at IW since I rushed out the settlers. I actually played until 600 BC three times after posting that start and there is still a lot of variation that can occur after the war buildup. I'm going to review the other spoilers and post about it when I have time to finish the game. Didn't know there was so much to learn from a Praet rush.
 
Grashopa - an interesting twist. I went back and tried a worker steal opening myself out of curiosity. But without the woodsmanII warrior-farming it was a disaster. By the time his chariots showed up he still wouldnt make peace :lol:

I'm having a hell of a slog on Deity, a lot going wrong but the power of praetorians has at least kept me competitive. In-depth writeup to 175BC:

Spoiler :
Did the double workboat->worker whip->chopfest opening thats so good for these starts with any of the fishing+mining civs (Rome, Carthage, England, Portugal). Tech path was BW->agriculture->the wheel->Iron Working->AH->writing. It was obvious that fogbusting was possible with only warriors from very early on, and only 3 of them at that.

One worker roaded to the gold/sheep site to the north-west while the other stuck around the capital to chop/mine and then farm the wheat and quarry/road the stone. Gold site was a priority even though it was distant and would work exclusively the gold tile for quite a few turns. Huge help getting through the worker techs and accelerating the Praet rush. And this city becomes a fairly useful early unit pump at size 3 working the plains sheep, plains gold, and a second plains mine for a respectable 10h/turn.

Third city was settled 1N of the sheep near the capital and eventually takes over the wet wheat. I only managed to settle three cities before I attacked because I also built the mids in the capital (hoping to have an easy early conquest and then turbo-boosted recovery with rep specialists) and felt like I couldnt spare those 100 hammers for more settlers before I got my first stacks out. This may have been a mistake. In 925 BC with 5 praets at Suleiman's border and another on the way I decide not to wait any longer when he presents me with the perfect opening:

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Well, not perfect, that would have been about 4 turns earlier which would have been a settler steal and then straight to Istanbul. But here I get a double worker steal to really accelerate chops, and Gaziantep was just settled. Which means I get to take out the two archers there with no cultural defense, almost no fortify defense, on flat ground, giving the Praets something like 90% odds and CRII promos for both attackers. As well as that crucial war success, which I didn't think I'd need but you never know. It takes a few turns to get Istanbul:

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Because the road connection is still in his culture and I have to spend a turn so I'm not attacking across a river. A couple turns later I take Konya at the cows/horses/floodplains spot to the south with a secondary stack accumulating from Rome and Cumae, which can get there faster than any other target. Anyway, Im hoping at this point that without his capital he'll be semi-crippled right from the beginning of the war and with the second city falling so quickly that it's turning into a mop-up.

But of course this is Deity and it's just not so. Suleiman shows up with a stack from his northernmost city that I'm avoiding because it sucks and its on a hill and threatens Istanbul, where I have only a couple Praets that were healing. All my forces have converged on a city halfway between Istanbul and Gaziantep. They are just barely able to take the city the turn before Suleiman would recapture Istanbul. I have no choice but to take peace, for which I get this deal:

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Not the greatest, but I judge it preferable to having to retake Istanbul and then possibly getting bogged down into a general clusterfu.....uuudge. I could have gotten Alpha instead but Math was still tradeable for Alpha, which was known by all the leaders I'd met. I'd later meet Boudica who was still only semi-literate and then got some backfill for Alpha as well.

A lot rougher than expected, I'd figured on reducing Suleiman to 1 useless city and taking peace for all his techs. The main problem I had in this little rush was that Suleiman was unusually, maddeningly smart about getting out shock axes, which was reducing me to about 30% odds even with CRII. I've actually never done a Praetorian rush before so maybe my date was late? I dont think so, though, I was about as efficient as I could have been. So maybe it wasnt speed but an issue of hammers? Not enough cities settled? I imagine if I'd skipped masonry and the mids entirely I'd have gotten Suleiman with his pants down, but then it would have been a long recovery, plus no police state. I was trying to find a balance.

As soon as I made peace OF COURSE he vassaled to Cathy, who's now looking like a potential runaway with 12 cities and more than twice the score of the next AI. Then she presumably gives Sully Feudalism so the idea of taking on the both of them dies on the vine. That was a stupid idea anyway. Maybe on Immortal. At this point the empire looks like this, with a settler being built for the fish spot:

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Shaka is still pretty backward, though, and always a pain in the ass. And I've got all these Praetorians with nothing to do so I consolidate my stack and move toward his borders. Just as I'm ready to declare, he declares on me. Typical Shaka :lol:. Saves me from 'you declared war on our friend' modifier with Cathy/Sully and everything, pretty convenient, right? Well, not really because Shaka snuck a stack through Suleiman's tundra territory and sniped my gold/sheep city with horse archers on the first turn of the war. And continues to stream units through the north where they threaten Cumae and then Rome herself! While I take the first of Shaka's cities with my western stack I'm able to produce and turn back enough units on the home front to keep Shaka from attacking, and then actually smash his mini-stack (was about 8 units plus a few more wandering around) with combat II promoted Praets. Which leaves me in this position:

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Shaka with 8 units to mop up, some wounded, and me with 8 Praets and another two in a couple turns. The math looks like a simple win for me but he's undoubtedly got more units on the way and it sucks having to take back my own hill city. In the west I've easily taken his nearest city with 9 Praets left, 3 of them are CRIII. The problem is that it t takes a while to get reinforcements that far and more distant cities are going to get very expensive. It kind of feels like I should already be back to focusing on infrastructure and research. On the other hand Shaka will be a constant threat if I dont cap him or cripple him completely, and right now he still doesnt have longbows.

Tech situation:

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Still hanging in there with a Metal Casting bulb from my GEngineer and, strangely, a monopoly on Currency until I traded it. In 5 turns I may also be the first to CoL.

I've never done a Praet rush so it's hard to gauge, but then you see a guy like Duckweed who can win the right map on Deity with nothing but Praetorians. I've done some things I wouldn't normally do. I chopped the entirety of the forests around my original cities before math, and I settled my first three Great Generals in Rome. Normally the first would always be scout supermedic but Rome is such a strong longterm unit pump and an obvious Heroic Epic/Ironworks city that I thought I'd change it up.

Pros:
-have a respectable 9 city empire with good land
-have the 'Mids
-managing to more-or-less keep up in tech and havent started running specialists
-have both marble and stone
-have the AP religion in all my cities, as well as the holy city, and this is the religion of the most powerful AI with whom I share borders

Cons:
-Gave an AI that was already the strongest a vassal that wasn't totally crippled
-am basically resigned to more-or-less perpetual war with Shaka until I cap or destroy him
-am very behind on infrastructure and population/tile improvements
-Cathy is plotting

There are a bunch of her units milling around our border. She was pleased briefly but dropped back down to cautious because of close borders. Probably this turn I should switch to Judaism and then beg, because I'm almost certainly the target and if she attacks me the game is over.


I sure wouldn't mind some advice from more competent Deity players. Looking in Grashopa and Cseanny's direction :D
 

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