SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

kossin said:
It seems I'm alone on that battlefront so I'll just stay quiet about it from now on. Hopefully traderoutes to the other AIs can be unlocked to improve the finances so that the hit is smaller.

Or get the GLH and add cities around inland seas

I tested this at one point, to check to see whether the GLH (built in a "coastal" city) would impact all of our cities next to 1-tile Lakes. Sadly, and unsurprisingly, it did not. :cry:

pomthom said:
Updated test game attached.

EDIT: just realized I forgot to gift the Copper away, sorry. Not so sure about my beaker count as well but should more or less good

Thanks!

Gold count can be easily adjusted. Science is harder, but not that important right now.

Duckweed · Mar 30, 2014

Doshin said:
I thought the Dye Hard Worker was obvious, as long as we don't need to road towards Nappy.

Dye Hard has two Workers. We won't steal Calendar for ~7 turns.

One Worker can stay behind to road towards the Stone (= 2 turns) and then clear the Jungle (= 4 turns). Another can go to Wheat/Pigs to chop a Forest and road. After the Forest is chopped, it will return to Dye Hard to build a Plantation.

The alternative would be to leave one Worker in Dye Hard and send another back to Constantinople. Which would you prefer?

Whether we need to send a worker to Nappy's border will be clear in 1 or two turns. We need to leave 1 worker in Dye Hard to clear the Dye jungle and road the stone. The other worker is either needed to connect the trade route or is better to return to Const to prechop and preimprove. Const will grow very fast in the near future and hence the worker forces there will be very short. TBH, I would not mind whipping 1 more worker to help in this area.

Pig City either needs three Workers to be set up, or we'll need to move two Workers onto a Forest after improving the Pigs:

T88: 0F Pasture 2/4
T89: 3F Pasture 4/4
T90: 9F Move two Workers to Forest
T91: 15F Chop 2/3
T92: 21F Chop 3/3
T93: 5/24F Whip Granary
T94: 11/22F

Regarding the changes of Golden sands and Cornish Cow, I'm fine with that if you look at my previous post which have been edited.

kossin · Mar 30, 2014

Doshin said:
I tested this at one point, to check to see whether the GLH (built in a "coastal" city) would impact all of our cities next to 1-tile Lakes. Sadly, and unsurprisingly, it did not.

Thanks!

Gold count can be easily adjusted. Science is harder, but not that important right now.

I did specify inland seas, which is 10+ water tiles

There are a few of those around but it is late and it would not benefit enough. More a joke.

@Duckweed
This game is essentially a beaker race. We did not run other beaker race SGOTMs economies so much near the floor.

For a war game like SGOTM15 (and 13 and 14 and 17) where we just needed Engineering (from GPP), and then just stay afloat, it's fine and I agree.

Yes SGOTM18 left its impressions. We played a very good game but the decisions from T50-100 economy-wise were quite clearly not optimal. Mass rex led to the best ending (like it can here as well) but falling behind while you get there is potentially problematic.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

I don't think another Worker is needed quite yet. A Spy will take priority in Constantinople, and we can decide after that. Sea Horse can also keep whipping at size 4, to set-up key buildings. We might need another Worker for the border pop, to improve the Horse ASAP.

Sheepish has two Workers, if one goes to chop the riverside Forest, and can send the Worker improving the riverside Grassland to Constantinople after it is done.

Thessalonica will only need one Worker, after the Forest is chopped and has a Cottage.

----

Are there any objections to building the Heroic Epic ASAP in Rice Pudding?

On T84, Case Depart will put the Market OF into this for fail gold. Then we can build it in Rice Pudding and begin to build 1 Warrior a turn.

Duckweed · Mar 30, 2014

kossin said:
@Duckweed
This game is essentially a beaker race. We did not run other beaker race SGOTMs economies so much near the floor.

For a war game like SGOTM15 (and 13 and 14 and 17) where we just needed Engineering (from GPP), and then just stay afloat, it's fine and I agree.

Yes SGOTM18 left its impressions. We played a very good game but the decisions from T50-100 economy-wise were quite clearly not optimal. Mass rex led to the best ending (like it can here as well) but falling behind while you get there is potentially problematic.

Let's take the 10th city for example since it starts to pay back the latest, around T110, even we are looking for 1000AD finish (quite unlikely), it still has 50 turns to pay back, will surely make much more benefit than the setup cost (a settler and ~140g). We don't delay anything for that since we still need time to grow the cities to be ready for University whip. As I said to you in SGOTM12 while founding corporations. In a situation where it takes 50 turns to finish research, then it makes sense to take 20 turns to stagnate the progress to spread the corporation to gain double tech rate, because the result is 5 turns faster.

I can see that you are still in doubt, let's look at the progress and monitor the output.

Duckweed · Mar 30, 2014

Doshin said:
I don't think another Worker is needed quite yet. A Spy will take priority in Constantinople, and we can decide after that. Sea Horse can also keep whipping at size 4, to set-up key buildings. We might need another Worker for the border pop, to improve the Horse ASAP.

The extra worker is not necessary for now, but I foreseen the shortage while Const starts to grow. We could whip it from nearby city anyway.

Sheepish has two Workers, if one goes to chop the riverside Forest, and can send the Worker improving the riverside Grassland to Constantinople after it is done.

Capital does not own any worker at the moment, it is going to need a couple workers when Calendar is available.

Thessalonica will only need one Worker, after the Forest is chopped and has a Cottage.

----

Are there any objections to building the Heroic Epic ASAP in Rice Pudding?

On T84, Case Depart will put the Market OF into this for fail gold. Then we can build it in Rice Pudding and begin to build 1 Warrior a turn.

RP could finish HE on T85 with the chop.

kossin · Mar 30, 2014

1000AD would be a reasonable time if we don't need Flight/Communism/Fascism. Get Democracy and whichever Corporation then just kill the map...

1200AD for SGOTM19 (granted better trade opportunities) with a similar position at the moment (but better economy) given need for Flight etc.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

Two tests are attached. Let me know what you think.

I won't play beyond T88, but the T91 is exempli gratia.

---

Two issues:

Spies: how many? I favor whipping one, to move to Lalibela, and then a second, which will wait on the Pigs as backup.
Sea Horse: it is difficult to generate for a Workboat through OF. We could, however, build it sooner if we 1-pop whip this. It won't hurt development, although it'll slow the Library. The main issue is unhappiness.

It looks to me like Cornish Cow will need to whip another Worker after the border pop, because it has a lot of green tiles in the second ring.

Whipping a Worker in Constantinople or Sea Horse also won't be difficult, if necessary.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

In the real game, I'll try to put :hammers:

into the Temple of Artemis > Monasteries everywhere but the capital. Monasteries can be used to control pop.

pomthom's test file has the Parthenon functioning as the Temple of Artemis.

I'd usually delay or ignore the Aqueduct in the capital, and I guess this will be Duckweed's decision as it is low priority. But we will need health here at size 13 (Forge adds –1 :yuck:

) and it seems increasingly likely that we will want to build the Hanging Gardens at some point. We'd gain +10/11 pop in reasonably large cities. We can postpone the build until after we've generated the Education GSs, or before, to help with Caste specialists elsewhere.

Duckweed · Mar 30, 2014

Doshin said:
Two issues:

Spies: how many? I favor whipping one, to move to Lalibela, and then a second, which will wait on the Pigs as backup.

Looks good for me.

Sea Horse: it is difficult to generate for a Workboat through OF. We could, however, build it sooner if we 1-pop whip this. It won't hurt development, although it'll slow the Library. The main issue is unhappiness.

If we want to whip the WB, then whip it before LH.

It looks to me like Cornish Cow will need to whip another Worker after the border pop, because it has a lot of green tiles in the second ring.

6F+ are not enough for the city to grow super fast, 4 turn per cottage looks good, but it's easy to whip any time we see necessary.

Whipping a Worker in Constantinople or Sea Horse also won't be difficult, if necessary.

Some issue from the save.

1. As I said, I still won't count 3 workers in the new city.
2. Do you consider to finish lib in Golden sand before missionary in case there are only 2 workers available in the new city.
3. Sheepish should consider a market before Monastery
4. I'd send a worker to chop the riverside grassland forest in Const, it's a better tile to improve and also to produce 2nd spy faster.
5. As I said, whether we need to send a worker to Nappy's border will be clear in 1 or 2 turns. The scouting axe can still move this turn. To better prepared, the free worker in Dye Hard this turn should move to the Dye tile and chop.
6. You can move 1 archer to SeaHorse immediately since the warrior from RP can reach capital in time. And better to send the archer instead of warrior.

Edit: Yes, we can consider HG once the stone is nearly connected.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

Duckweed said:
Some issue from the save.

1. As I said, I still won't count 3 workers in the new city.
2. Do you consider to finish lib in Golden sand before missionary in case there are only 2 workers available in the new city.

Yes, but even with just two Workers, the Missionary first is better. We can generate 41H of OF maximum, meaning that either the Library or Missionary is delayed until T92. I'd rather spread religion, because an earlier/hammer boosted Granary (with +25% OF) means an earlier Courthouse.

3. Sheepish should consider a market before Monastery

Sure. More or less of a priority than fail gold?

4. I'd send a worker to chop the riverside grassland forest in Const, it's a better tile to improve and also to produce 2nd spy faster.

I'll try again, but it requires quite a few Worker turns (8, total) compared to the Cottage 1S (5 total, due to road and pre-chop).

We could delay the Sheepish Cottage 3W1N?

5. As I said, whether we need to send a worker to Nappy's border will be clear in 1 or 2 turns. The scouting axe can still move this turn. To better prepared, the free worker in Dye Hard this turn should move to the Dye tile and chop.

On this topic: shall we move the Axe 2S or 2W? I prefer 2S.

The Dye Hard Worker moves as you suggest.

6. You can move 1 archer to SeaHorse immediately since the warrior from RP can reach capital in time. And better to send the archer instead of warrior.

.....

Duckweed · Mar 30, 2014

Yes Axe 2S.

Edit: The scout is better to scout the north area around the NE corner barbarian city since it's obvious an important part of the game.
You could also consider to send the worker in SeaHorse to chop a forest before improving the Horse.
Also try to pull the scouting axes back for safety, especially in Dye Hard.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

I'm going to eat, then will move the Axe and finalize micro accordingly.

Be back in an hour or so.

Folket · Mar 30, 2014

I would say that a market is lower priority then fail gold in sheepish. I would prefer to even build gold before a market, getting civil service sooner has a higher return.

Duckweed · Mar 30, 2014

Folket said:
I would say that a market is lower priority then fail gold in sheepish. I would prefer to even build gold before a market, getting civil service sooner has a higher return.

We'll run out of cash after Music, therefore Market gives best return before resuming research for CS. Sheepish essentially has little production and the 2nd best commercial city. Investment to any world wonder is unpredictable to get return, as you can see that TOA is available to build from T0 and still available now.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

No trade routes via the mountain:

Spoiler :

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

I'm going to pull both southern Axemen back towards Constantinople:

Spoiler :

I need to check the test file for north, in terms of fogbusting:

Spoiler :

Edit: northern units stay put for now.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

Sorry for the delay. My game crashed.

No moves were lost, so I'm going to play on. I'll PM Alan_H and kcd_swede once I'm done.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

No trade routes:

Spoiler :

Tokugawa is researching Currency, if you can't quite see.

Doshin · Mar 30, 2014

Northern barb:

Spoiler :

Tokugawa expansion:

Spoiler :

Philosophy:

Spoiler :

----

Since I didn't mention it, I traded for HBR and sold Monotheism (no diplo bonus).

For reference purposes:

Spoiler :

SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid

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