SGOTM 19 - Also Sprach Sid
- Thread starter AlanH
- Start date
One problem with this is that we cannot raze our own cities:
Spoiler :
I don't know what the exact rule or code is, but it is probably a matter of culture.
Farm in this city is useless, cottage or WS is fine. In fact, a cottage on a plain tile is the best choice.
Phooey
Testing prevails once again. We're going to want to raze a lot more stuff now.
Not much change of our original plan, we are going to raze most of Alex and Nappy's cities since they are useless to our research. The only thing to be considered is whether to keep Mecca, which has SP. Prague seems to go as well.
soundjata
everything
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- Jun 3, 2011
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I just spent the time checking the save and reading the last 20 pages.
Things are getting clearer on the situation we're at
Basically we want to try and capture Pragues + Aachen on turn 144 arent't we?
I should be able to play till T144 tomorrow, especially if there's support (9PM>midnightish Paris time) If you need a PPP though, that's one more day delay...
Here are the preliminary questions:
- We could research Chemistry in just one turn (building research instead of wealth) is this advisable?
- Where do we settle the clam/copper city? 1S of clam is good?
- When / where to settle the SW crab city?
- City of Crib. We are planning to whip the galley asap right? (or slowbuild it, in which case we'd like a mine on a hill...)
- Wounded stack SE of Augburg: how to heal? Promote anything to medic 1 and stay in place?
- How to use our spy? Follow the Nappy/Alex war?
- Any use of building Moai somewhere? Barcelona maybe? or keep the forests for better use? Failgold some?
Things are getting clearer on the situation we're at
Basically we want to try and capture Pragues + Aachen on turn 144 arent't we?
I should be able to play till T144 tomorrow, especially if there's support (9PM>midnightish Paris time) If you need a PPP though, that's one more day delay...
Here are the preliminary questions:
- We could research Chemistry in just one turn (building research instead of wealth) is this advisable?
- Where do we settle the clam/copper city? 1S of clam is good?
- When / where to settle the SW crab city?
- City of Crib. We are planning to whip the galley asap right? (or slowbuild it, in which case we'd like a mine on a hill...)
- Wounded stack SE of Augburg: how to heal? Promote anything to medic 1 and stay in place?
- How to use our spy? Follow the Nappy/Alex war?
- Any use of building Moai somewhere? Barcelona maybe? or keep the forests for better use? Failgold some?
soundjata
everything
- Joined
- Jun 3, 2011
- Messages
- 2,652
Can you explain how this will speed up the stack? Won't the 2 stacks want to head south?
I just spent the time checking the save and reading the last 20 pages.
Things are getting clearer on the situation we're at
Basically we want to try and capture Pragues + Aachen on turn 144 arent't we?
Send the troops around Augsburg and Nuremberg to 2W of Augsburg so that they can attack both cities. Of course mainly for the Prague, they can still provide some help to clean Aachen if battles do not go well in that direction. Raze Prague.
I should be able to play till T144 tomorrow, especially if there's support (9PM>midnightish Paris time) If you need a PPP though, that's one more day delay...
Remember the suggestions, fine to skip PPP
Here are the preliminary questions:
- We could research Chemistry in just one turn (building research instead of wealth) is this advisable?
No.
- Where do we settle the clam/copper city? 1S of clam is good? Yes.
- When / where to settle the SW crab city?
1 tile near the crab, near the end of the game, we will stay on US civic in the end.
- City of Crib. We are planning to whip the galley asap right? (or slowbuild it, in which case we'd like a mine on a hill...)
Basically whip, time it when the forts are ready.
- Wounded stack SE of Augburg: how to heal? Promote anything to medic 1 and stay in place?
Take a look at my suggestion of Prague attack. Severely wounded units stay in place to heal, lightly wounded units move to 2W of Augburg.
- How to use our spy? Follow the Nappy/Alex war?
EPs on Nappy and probably to revolt 1 Nappy's city.
- Any use of building Moai somewhere? Barcelona maybe? or keep the forests for better use? Failgold some?
Forests are needed to produce executives.
Alex can attack Bantu from his own culture tile, which is 1NW of Bantu. You should be able to see which tile his stack is on next turn. Road that tile, which should be the tile I mentioned.
I am not sure how raze mechanics work in detail. For instance, if we capture Mecca, and keep it for 710 turns while it is in revolt, so that we can switch into Free Religion, could we gift it back to Alex on the turn before it would leave revolt, and then recapture/raze it? None of our culture would be present in the tile.Phooey
Testing prevails once again. We're going to want to raze a lot more stuff now.
We do not need to have a majority cultural influence:
Spoiler :
As long as the city does not have our culture, we could raze it.
We could gift Augsburg and then Vienna to Alex on T146 and then raze Augsburg and keep Vienna to enjoy the wonder bonus for a few more turns and then liberate it to HC. Or just raze Vienna.
We could gift Augsburg and then Vienna to Alex on T146 and then raze Augsburg and keep Vienna to enjoy the wonder bonus for a few more turns and then liberate it to HC. Or just raze Vienna.
I am not sure about this tech path, because it eliminates a possible Chemistry bulb.
Ignoring Economics (= Sushi), we have one Great Merchant in Bacon Sandwich, and one likely in Constantinople @66% +.
If we run a trade mission with a GM, then 2200G + 1400G = 3600G.
We are losing about 400GPT now. However, we will be out of
If we manage to stockpile 3000G over the next 10 turns and lose ~300GPT, after civic changes/shrines/Wealth is built, then we'd have enough gold for 10 turns of research.
So, in short, I think Great Scientists bulbs offer us more now than GM missions, and that the quickest way to win would be to bulb Chemistry once, and Scientific Method once. This would require some luck, as we'd need to generate a GS or GSpy in Constantinople.
The tech path would be:
T143 Optics
T144 Banking 1 turn
T145 Switch to slavery + Mercantilism, Economics 1 turn
T146 Corporation 1 turn
T147 Chemistry 1 turn (bulb)
T148 Scientific Method 1 turn (bulb)
T149 Biology 2-3 turns
T151/2 Liberalism 1 turn
I don't think Napoleon will research Optics. He just finished Nationalism, so will likely go to Constitution or (less likely) Guilds.T144 Banking 1 turn
T145 Switch to slavery + Mercantilism, Economics 1 turn
T146 Corporation 1 turn
T147 Chemistry 1 turn (bulb)
T148 Scientific Method 1 turn (bulb)
T149 Biology 2-3 turns
T151/2 Liberalism 1 turn
If you guys think we will lose
after we turn the slider off, then this is not such an issue. Most of my knowledge about Civ 4 comes from SGOTM these days, and we did not use corps in SGOTM 17/18, so I am fuzzy about the spreading costs.To clarify regarding the Golden Age:
One of Co/CD would need to produce a GScientist, and the other a non-GM, non-GArtist.
GA#4 = (1) GArtist + (2) GMerchant +
(3.a) GSpy (= Co) OR
(3.b) GScientist (= Co/CD) OR
(3. c) GEngineer (= CD)
(3.b) GScientist (= Co/CD) OR
(3. c) GEngineer (= CD)
One of Co/CD would need to produce a GScientist, and the other a non-GM, non-GArtist.
I am not sure about this tech path, because it eliminates a possible Chemistry bulb.
Ignoring Economics (= Sushi), we have one Great Merchant in Bacon Sandwich, and one likely in Constantinople @66% +.
If we run a trade mission with a GM, then 2200G + 1400G = 3600G.
We are losing about 400GPT now. However, we will be out of Pacifism in 3 turns, have a shrine generating gold in 1 turn, and will capture cities throughout the next 10 turns. If we capture 10 cities worth 80G each, then we have an extra ~800G. FWIW, Seville offered 157G, Vienna 125G, Toku's awful capital 55G, and we have captured more than 10 cities in the last 10 turns.
If we manage to stockpile 3000G over the next 10 turns and lose ~300GPT, after civic changes/shrines/Wealth is built, then we'd have enough gold for 10 turns of research.
So, in short, I think Great Scientists bulbs offer us more now than GM missions, and that the quickest way to win would be to bulb Chemistry once, and Scientific Method once. This would require some luck, as we'd need to generate a GS or GSpy in Constantinople.
The tech path would be:
T143 OpticsI don't think Napoleon will research Optics. He just finished Nationalism, so will likely go to Constitution or (less likely) Guilds.
T144 Banking 1 turn
T145 Switch to slavery + Mercantilism, Economics 1 turn
T146 Corporation 1 turn
T147 Chemistry 1 turn (bulb)
T148 Scientific Method 1 turn (bulb)
T149 Biology 2-3 turns
T151/2 Liberalism 1 turn
If you guys think we will lose
The cash will be quite tense in this case, maintaining -300gpt is not easy, especially when more cities come out of revolt and cities become bigger to increase maintenance cost.
I think city capture gold will be more than my estimate. Recently:
There are two issues, I think:
Edit: an alternate way to look at the economic side of things.
I inherited:
1648G
7 turns later, we are down to:
677G
So -139GPT.
The GM mission just added +1500G to our reserves, taking us to +2177G.
2177/10 (turns of research) means we can lose -218GPT with our current reserves.
Madrid = 201G
Cordoba = 145G
Santiago = 129G
Seville = 157G
Vienna = 125G
Size 1 Valencia = 44G
Size 1 Toku Cap = 55G
I don't have a picture from every city I captured, and pomthom didn't either, but these were all reported.Cordoba = 145G
Santiago = 129G
Seville = 157G
Vienna = 125G
Size 1 Valencia = 44G
Size 1 Toku Cap = 55G
There are two issues, I think:
- Do we lose anything by going to Optics before Chemistry?
- Is a GScientist or GMerchant better for us?
- No, since we have no Workshops. I don't believe Nappy or Alex will research Optics before us, whichever tech path we take.
- I think we currently have enough to research to the end of the tech tree, with our current warring, although we will need to build Wealth and warring will be harder.
Edit: an alternate way to look at the economic side of things.
I inherited:
1648G
7 turns later, we are down to:
677G
So -139GPT.
The GM mission just added +1500G to our reserves, taking us to +2177G.
2177/10 (turns of research) means we can lose -218GPT with our current reserves.
I'm pretty sure cash will be fine for research.
Since we're stuck with so many cities however, we may have a hard time spreading the corporation when the upkeep hits and when we start whipping away 5~25 pop/turn (15~75 gpt). Therefore the second GM trade mission may yet be important.
Spread cost seems fixed, but upkeep is tied to # of resources.
We can check if we can gift back and raze cities in which we don't have any culture, but otherwise we're going to have to spread almost 40 cities.
Since we're stuck with so many cities however, we may have a hard time spreading the corporation when the upkeep hits and when we start whipping away 5~25 pop/turn (15~75 gpt). Therefore the second GM trade mission may yet be important.
Spread cost seems fixed, but upkeep is tied to # of resources.
We can check if we can gift back and raze cities in which we don't have any culture, but otherwise we're going to have to spread almost 40 cities.
Then perhaps we should research Optics next, but run 6 Great Merchants in Constantinople, as before?
This keeps the Chemistry bulb open, but rules out an Optics trade.
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It seems that 25% culture eliminates the possibility of razing a city.
The best way for us to deal with towns like Santiago or Seville, that are still in revolt, would be to:
If Santiago has 8-pop, Seville 11-pop, and both can work Gold.
I'd assume that we can keep and use the HRE cities, as long as our culture stays below 25%. I haven't tested, so I
.
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Perhaps one of the late game players could test, figure out the details, and then draw up a plan for spreading the corps. E.g. we could keep these cities until the end, if that will not delay the Sushi spread.
We are fine to play the present turn. We will keep Madrid until the game end.
This keeps the Chemistry bulb open, but rules out an Optics trade.
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It seems that 25% culture eliminates the possibility of razing a city.
The best way for us to deal with towns like Santiago or Seville, that are still in revolt, would be to:
- Gift away Vienna, so that we no longer have the Sistine Chapel.
- Run mass Merchants or Scientists, while building Wealth.
- One turn before Slavery, start a Theater or (worse) a Library.
- Whip a Theater at the last moment possible. On the following turn, gift the city to another AI.
- Depending on their religion, the city will receive 3–5
per turn. Our culture should be displaced in 4–5 turns.
If Santiago has 8-pop, Seville 11-pop, and both can work Gold.
17–pop = 51 51 
from specialists, plus city center and Gold tile hammers/commerce
15–pop = 45 45 from specialists, plus city center and Gold tile hammers/commerce
13-pop = 39 39 from specialists, plus city center Gold tile hammers/commerce
If the two cities are worth a little less than 100CPT, over ~5 turns, then they should contribute about ~400C overall. 51 from specialists, plus city center and Gold tile hammers/commerce15–pop = 45
45 from specialists, plus city center and Gold tile hammers/commerce13-pop = 39
39 from specialists, plus city center Gold tile hammers/commerceI'd assume that we can keep and use the HRE cities, as long as our culture stays below 25%. I haven't tested, so I
.----
Perhaps one of the late game players could test, figure out the details, and then draw up a plan for spreading the corps. E.g. we could keep these cities until the end, if that will not delay the Sushi spread.
We are fine to play the present turn. We will keep Madrid until the game end.
Then perhaps we should research Optics next, but run 6 Great Merchants in Constantinople, as before?
This keeps the Chemistry bulb open, but rules out an Optics trade.
-----
It seems that 25% culture eliminates the possibility of razing a city.
The best way for us to deal with towns like Santiago or Seville, that are still in revolt, would be to:
- Gift away Vienna, so that we no longer have the Sistine Chapel.
- Run mass Merchants or Scientists, while building Wealth.
- One turn before Slavery, start a Theater or (worse) a Library.
- Whip a Theater at the last moment possible. On the following turn, gift the city to another AI.
- Depending on their religion, the city will receive 35
If Santiago has 8-pop, Seville 11-pop, and both can work Gold.
17pop = 51If the two cities are worth a little less than 100CPT, over ~5 turns, then they should contribute about ~400C overall.
15pop = 45
13-pop = 39
I'd assume that we can keep and use the HRE cities, as long as our culture stays below 25%. I haven't tested, so I
----
Perhaps one of the late game players could test, figure out the details, and then draw up a plan for spreading the corps. E.g. we could keep these cities until the end, if that will not delay the Sushi spread.
We are fine to play the present turn. We will keep Madrid until the game end.
We have the culture wonder, so specialists also produce culture. Either we gift out immediately or keep. I think we should keep them as they could contribute ~10 turns, They are on the way to Khur and can produce executives immediately.
