SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

haphazard1 said:

I agree with nocho on improving the cow before the sheep. Max food-hammers is usually best at the start, since even 1 extra can speed production of settlers and workers.

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Agree as well. Still haven't seen the actual game but good news on the computer front. Mostly working.. Should be able to access the save tomorrow morning.

I think if we want to rush our first settler size 2 will be better especially with 2 improved tiles.

Pretty certain as long as we can settle the phant site we don't need to worry about the local AI to much so this one is quite a priority for me.

Marble and Oracle. generally speaking from my vast (not ) experience going for oracle on imm/deity forget the marble bonus if we want to be sure of it.

The whole point of oracle, and All the Marbles as the place to build it, is to use the seafood by getting MC from oracle. What if we can get the seafood just with sailing? Galleys on coast have some bonus, a fleet of four galleys probably takes the triremes out by defending the nets. Maybe the MC beeline is not necessary? In a test, Vic took out the barb island city (or its equivalent) so maybe endless barb ships won't happen.

In a long test game I ran, I settle a second city between the cows NE as an intermediate city, to build warriors and another worker. SL made a second settler right away, who settled third on marble. Got oracle built in capital at turn 66 (well, one to go at turn 65). Probably could have been turn 60 with more care. Not much later if build at All the Marbles. I researched masonry last, so it sped up only part of oracle.

I don't see how we don't get beat to the elephants, as Vic did in the test. Our orange neighbor in the south has no barrier to going there that I can see. So it seems that our initial expansion has not much choice but out to the marble. Appearance of Horses might change that.

dV

I think from a dot map perspective, we have two places we'd like to be:

On the marble, or close to it

On the SE wheat, or close to it (one or two phants).

On my dot map, those are the green BFCs.

If we get beat to them or crowded out away from them, what are the alternatives? In light green and in yellow I have a couple of other city ideas, mostly to grab up unused resources (yellow) or as a fast warrior site (light green) to support the move east to the marble.

My thoughts now are to get to size 2 asap, and get a warrior out asap. Have to see what tile use maxes that out. I think roading to and improving the cow is step 1. Once we know the tile use and build pattern for the next 3 to 4 turns, we can play til AH is done, and see if horses change the equation. The rest of the debate makes more sense after we get horses.

So what are the best next 3 moves, that max our options?

dV

I'm on board with grow capital to size 2 before starting settler build. I just wanted to make sure we are all happy with the trade-off involved in delaying city #2.

If we need more fogbusting while the settler is moving, then I think bringing the archer home for a short spell is fine. Could start moving it back now, perhaps via the fogged space west of the ivory? Meanwhile, try to bring the warrior back while avoiding the bear. The scout to reveal the fogged space north of the cows also while avoiding barbarians.

Alternative city #2 site... on the wheat. Don't forget that seafood resources are useless until the water is cleared of barbarian triremes. Building only galleys to overwhelm them with numbers sounds like a very costly strategy to me. Surely those could be better invested in the Oracle? Anyway... settling on the wheat... does that mean giving up a 6 tile? Ouch.

Hopefully revealing horses makes our decision easier, so let's work on that.

My thoughts now are to get to size 2 asap, and get a warrior out asap. Have to see what tile use maxes that out. I think roading to and improving the cow is step 1. Once we know the tile use and build pattern for the next 3 to 4 turns, we can play til AH is done, and see if horses change the equation. The rest of the debate makes more sense after we get horses.

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What is undecided? Worker improve Cow or Sheep. Cow should come online a turn earlier thanks to favourable movement (don't forget part road build ). IMO, extra is more valuable than 2.
Choice of tile to work is either Cow (3) or Sheep Forest (2,2). I'd go for the to get us to size 2 ASAP.
Choice of build is a warrior to allow growth. Decision to actually complete the build will come after we learn AH.
Anything else that affects the next 3 turns?

For the next 3 turns I'd work cow, build warrior. Move warrior eastward and archer close to fort.

After those 3 turns cow we have 9 food and 3 hammers. Cow pasture online 4 turns later, but we'll need 5 to grow anyway. If 3 of those we work sheep, 1 unimproved cow and 1 improved cow, we'll have finished the warrior when we grow to 2, 8 turns from now.

Edit: xpost.

I agree with building warrior while working the cow, until we finish AH and know whether we have horses nearby.

I don't like the idea of settling on the wheat -- it is too good a tile to waste.

Galleys against triremes is a terrible trade. Galleys cost as much as a trireme, but the trireme gets +50% against the galley. Even with coastal +10%, the odds are very bad and we would likely lose at least three and more likely 4 galleys to clear 2 triremes. I think clearing our local waters is going to require MC, whether that is grabbed from the Oracle or just teched. Given the beaker cost, Oracle for MC seems like a very good option. We have 6 (7?) seafood visible, which represents a LOT of food. I think that is well worth the effort of building the Oracle.

On unit moves, remember that the warrior was trying to get us info on the land between us and Peter. Just in case there is something good there. He can move towards marble while still exploring. The northern bear was near the scout, so be careful and try not to get our nice Medic scout eaten. The southern bear is near the deer, and should not be a concern for the moment.

OK, some clarity seems to be emerging ... I think this is our 3 turn plan:

We need MC to clear the seas.

Don't settle on the SE wheat (I bet that we get beat to the area anyway).

Work the cow for fastest growth, build warrior. Worker move east and road, stop action, next turn either finish road there (makes sense to me) or move to cow and road. Then third turn either move to cow and road, stop action; or finish road on cow. 4th turn AH is in and pasture work starts. Makes more sense to me to road two tiles in a row, rather than every other tile.

Post save after AH is known.

Unit moves ... archer moves back toward fort and road, to have move north options. might keep archer in fort ... a quick road build and we have a full road to a wheat/phant city, if our settler gets out and it is still available.

Warrior moves east, to help fogbust path to marble. Unless we think he needs to explore more west?

Keep the scout alive: that may be hard. Even without bear, in test game, by himself he got attacked in series by lion, panther and another lion each on separate turns in succesion. Even in a forest hill, too much damage and too many fights. With a bear on one side and unknown barbs on the other, a pincers has me worried.

Since all disasters seem to happen on dV's turnset, I'd like some consensus on exactly what to do with the scout, so we can share the blame ...

dV

I have updated my dot map to reflect SE settle on the fort (gets fish wheat and phant in BFC, which seems to make sense to me). Also, given the river, no point in building that extra road for the settler if going south. If the wheat city is available, would we send first settler there? Or just keep focused on the marble city? AI might decide for us ...

An eventual city between the two NE cows has interesting uses ... it can use one or the other cow, and can work 2F 2C coast when triremes are not there, as a research boost. It allows All the Marbles to use the second cow without needed a border pop. maybe some horses will be in that area too ...

dV

If timing completion of the warrior with growth to size 2 slows down growth by only 1 turn, I would do that in this scenario.

I like the new dot map including the ? between the cows.

From what I can see at the moment unless there is more land to the SW we can settle earlyish war seems inevitable. From what we can see I would actually settle the second city on the fort giving us the phants. I know one off the coast but another city would supply the wb for the fish allowing for a fishing village between phants/SL.

Saying the above I would much prefer to know whether we have horses which could change everything so might be best to play the 3 turns and re-evaluate then.

dV, your latest dot map has the southern city on the burned city tile, not on the fort. I am unsure on this position, because it makes placing a city to use the central two seafood a problem. I had been thinking a city to the north could use those, but your positioning of a filler between the two cows to support marble city makes that impossible.

Maybe 1S of the fort? More jungle, but it gets no water tiles, the forested hills by the mountains, and leaves room for a fishing village to grab 3 seafood. Not a bad site, and we can camp the elephants without IW to at least get the happiness. I am starting to think Sleepless may be right, maybe this should be our second city rather than marble? We are not going to get the marble online in time to help with the Oracle anyway. And if we can only get one site before the AIs grab them, maybe the elephants are more critical?

Either way, I agree with playing 3 turns to find out if we have horses. For scout moves...well, obviously there will be a luck factor involved. If more barbs show up the scout could get overwhelmed. But we can be at least somewhat careful. Maybe SW onto the incense, and if no barbs are visible end turn there? Any 2-movers would give us river defense. Then next turn we could also single move SW, with the second move available if we end up next to something? If the scout dies it dies, but we can try to keep it alive while still exploring some.

The warrior can head NE, then E, then SE along Peter's border. The keeps him moving east (the limiting factor to be in position for a settler escort to marble) while still giving us some knowledge of what is between us and Peter.

Sounds like we have a solid plan for the next few turns up until AH reveals horses. I don't have a lot to add with regards to the scout. Since it has the Medic promo, I don't think there is any shame in bringing it home and keeping it for our inevitable early wars. Or simply wait for the AI to clear away barbarians and send the scout to explore in the age of writing and open borders.

After AH it won't take much more discussion to get us up to the birth of the Settler.

Broad strategy
It sounds like early war is inevitable, since we are so close to our neighbours and will likely run out of room to expand.
I still really like the look of Oracle+MC. As with all games, we will need to strike a balance between these goals.
I don't think we have any significant decisions until the settler is born.

After getting what must have been a polite "Play already, dammit!" from our illustrious captain, I played to AH.

Fastest growth to size two gets the warrior done at T20 if we work a 3h forest hill for one turn after we hit size 2. We will need him.

The march of the archer back to the fort found a barb warrior adjacent to him on T13. Warrior attacked in interturn, died without doing any damage to our hero. He has a promo in hand, and is in the fort.

How safe is our worker pasturing the cows, if barb warriors are popping up? Fortunately our warrior is now back in the area if we need him for protection.

I tucked the scout on forest hills in the north, hoping that was least likely path for the bear. So far so good. A warrior might eventually get out that way and visualize a safe path for his return, if he lives that long.

And AH ... this map is a veritable stud farm. I think we can see 5 horse sites ... on is already red. Three are in easy reach, see screenshot.

Which makes a lot of options for city settling ... I labeled some of my thoughts, note that we can't settle all as some are to close to each other, they are choices.

Discuss ...

Autolog:

dV

da_Vinci said:

After getting what must have been a polite "Play already, dammit!" from our illustrious captain, I played to AH.

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Oh?

Autolog:

Spoiler :

Hmm ... there doesn't seem to be a file. Have to investigate what is up with that, since I thought I had it set up.

dV

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IIRC it lives in the game installation folder. For a default Windows install it is something like "C:\Program Files\Firaxis\CivilizationIV\Mods\BUFFY\" or something like that. I thought the more logical place was in your Documents\Games\ but I seem to remember not finding it there.
(All this is from memory, as I'm not at the relevant computer)

These horses are madness. The on-the-Marble site (1) is now even stronger... @ size 6 (with seafood+lighthouse) it would have +13,9... most capitals aren't even that good. It could potentially be even better if more resources are revealed in the fog.

Other potential sites: (Apologies for the crude Paint job)

(2) On the city ruins: Wheat+Horses in first ring for immediate value. Ivory, fish and a few hills for good long term potential. @ size 6 (with seafood+lighthouse, jungle cleared and two grassland mines) I think it is +8,10.
hap1 mentioned an issue with claiming the inner harbour seafood, but even that I don't think is a problem with a future city 3E of the capital (5).

(3) 2x Horse+Cow+Crab+Marble: @size 6 (with lighthouse, grass mine) I think it has +2,13. Not too bad. It would prevent settling on the marble, but a site SE of the marble would still be strong (6). This is kind of going down the path of splitting the Marble site (which I think is awesome) into two not so awesome sites. This is not necessarily a bad thing.

(4) What about 5N of the capital: Horses first ring, rice+deer+sheep in the BFC. Pretty close to the neighbours, though we hope to remove them soon enough.

(7) Southern Deer: Hopefully there is more of interest around here... though it is a jungle down there.

How about going in this order: (2) > (3) > (4) > (6) > (5) > (7).

Another thought, just putting it out there:

What if we give up on Oracle/MC and go straight for a HA rush?


Edit: With some more thoughts.

vicawoo's Horse Archer Rush Guide

Our capital has silver+sheep, which is great for getting us to HBR quick.

Extra cities pre-rush: Obviously one to claim the horse resource. Either of the two cities I proposed above are a good choice since horses are in their first ring.

WOW!

There are so many ways we could split up the resources, and given the Temple requirement, maybe we would be better packing the cities in and sharing/splitting all the goods.

I would settle south and get the elephants now before Suli comes that way. I think I like settling the fort though. That would leave room for a coastal city in the middle.

It seems I could easily play to the completion of the pasture, only issues are the unit moves. Then what next for the worker needs discussion (road to where, or improve the capital?).

Only question is whether I need to keep the warrior NE of the worker for safety while the pasture completes. I think keep the archer in the fort, any promo we want right away, or hold on to it? Fortify the scout on forest hill, or march west for home?

dV

Well I wasn't expecting any horses... Slight underestimation there..

I fancy the idea of a HA rush as well. Especially with both the Russians to the North and an angry Suly to the South.

Time for some checking.. Still very busy atm though

I think although its bit far away 6N 1E of SE between the rice and horse as the second city. Would give us a nice base to attack from and with rice horse in inner ring gives us good food/production at a small size.

It seems I could easily play to the completion of the pasture, only issues are the unit moves

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What about timing the completion of the warrior to city growth at T20?

That is a LOT of horses. I hope Pollux is getting some laughs from everyone's reactions.

Note that Peter's borders will cover the northern rice upon his next border pop, and we will not have cultural pressure to contest them. And that is assuming that neither he nor Cathy take those resources before we can get to them.

I think the burned city site is probably the best for our second city. Grass horses and grass wheat in the first ring, so we can develop a strong second city rapidly without worrying about a border expansion until later. I like Ronnie1's idea of packing in our cities with plenty of overlap -- more cities to build temples, more cities with enough strong tiles early that can always add some specialists later if we get enough happiness to grow beyond our tiles.

For immediate moves I think promote archer CG3 and keep him in the fort until our settler arrives, then he becomes garrison. Scout try to bring him back, slowly and carefully. Warrior to assist scout and/or cover the worker, although I don't think we will have problems there yet -- newly spawned barbs should obey the usual rules and not enter cultural borders until there are more cities. Worker to finish improving cows, then move to improve the sheep at the capital.

Those are my thoughts, anyway. Pre-caffeine this morning so take them for what they are (or are not?) worth.