SGOTM 20 - Misfit Gypsy Nuts

Ctrl+Alt+o to open buffy, then logging tab, make sure it is checked to start automatically, and a save file path is fully defined.

My file path went away for some reason and I had to rebuild that part.
 
New save in real game is up.

It is turn 19, size 2 and warrior are one turn away. Scout is on same tile as warrior, forest hill NW of the horses that are north of the marble. The bear is two tiles ESE of them.

I left the archer selected, in case some quirk on opening caused the selected unit to move ... it would not be an archer issue, but would be a worker issue. The worker still has a decision to make about what he is to do. I think fastest move to sheep is the way to go ... it gets us some hammer or science overflow after settler at T31.

Do we let the warrior defend the bear on forest hill, with some fortification? Might be our best chance to kill the bear. Scout can run home on open terrain that is known to be save now.

I am handing off to the next player, as I have a busy next few days ahead with paper grading.

Ctrl+Alt+o to open buffy, then logging tab, make sure it is checked to start automatically, and a save file path is fully defined.

My file path went away for some reason and I had to rebuild that part.
Yes, I discovered that my path box was empty. I put in a valid path, but still no log. Have to play with this some.

Edit: found the log:

Spoiler :
Logging by BUFFY 3.19.003 (BtS 3.19)
------------------------------------------------
Turn 15/500 (3400 BC) [25-Jul-2014 19:28:00]
100% Research: 9 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 16/500 (3360 BC) [25-Jul-2014 19:28:01]
100% Research: 9 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 17/500 (3320 BC) [25-Jul-2014 19:28:54]
100% Research: 9 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank

Turn 18/500 (3280 BC) [25-Jul-2014 19:29:56]
A Pasture was built near Silver Lining
100% Research: 9 per turn
0% Espionage: 4 per turn
0% Gold: 0 per turn, 0 in the bank


The thumbnail shows the apparent default path in steam. I think putting "My Documents" in the path I made did not work, it may just want "Documents" to get to the autolog directory in my games.

dV
 

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Who is up?
 
Yes, I discovered that my path box was empty. I put in a valid path, but still no log. Have to play with this some.
Mine was empty also. No idea how it got blank. For some reason I have nothing in my autolog folder in 2014. But I posted them in the last game, so I know they existed at one time.
 
Do we let the warrior defend the bear on forest hill, with some fortification? Might be our best chance to kill the bear. Scout can run home on open terrain that is known to be save now.

Hmmm. Would be bear 3.0 vs warrior on forested hill 3.50 to start, with each turn of fortification adding 0.1 to our warrior up to 4.0. Not wonderful odds, even with some fortification. I would prefer to face the bear with a second warrior available for mop up duty. Even better have the second warrior take the initial attack, with our CG1 warrior available for mop up.

I am handing off to the next player, as I have a busy next few days ahead with paper grading.

Good luck with the grading, dV!

I was looking at the progress graphs, and it looks like Shawshank Redemption has conquered something just past T50. Power rising fast, then a drop, with a sizable score jump (but no culture jump) at the same time. Low 50-ish turn for taking an AI capital? How does this compare to where we think we might be if we go all-out HA rush? Would this early imply one of our neighbors lacks metals? Their power drop was not all that large. Hmmmm.
 
Per adrianj in post #165, nocho is now up.

Ok, I can take it, but I'm out for the weekend, won't see the save in the next 36 hours. Then again, next Sunday I'll go on holidays, so in that sense the timing would be good for me to play a set during the week.
So if you start some discussion I can build a plan on that Sunday night and Monday and play by Tue/Wed, if that's allright. Otherwise also fine if sb else takes it.
 
I have been very busy, but I actually have some free time over the next couple days.

Do we want to chop into the settler?

I am for trying to kill the bear on defense if we can get to 25% fortify bonus. We could send the second warrior that direction also. I would prefer for him to go SW.

What if we are on top of copper, or it is very accessible, would we consider axe rush?

I am for pasturing sheep ASAP.
 
Nice work dV :cool:

(Re: quiet. I'm usually pretty quiet over the weekend)

The roster order is:
  1. Haphazard1
  2. da_Vinci Just Played :goodjob:
  3. nocho Up Now! :scan:
  4. Ronnie1 On Deck :p
  5. Sleepless
  6. McArine

Advising:
Ororo, adrianj
 
Tentative PPP with some open questions

Capital: warrior->settler.
After growth to 2, work cow and sheep (2f2h tile) until other sheep is ready.

Settler starts with 1h overflow.
5 turns with cow 4f2h + 2f2h sheep tile + 2f1h1c city -2*2 food->9 yield, 45 towards settler
6 turns with cow 4f2h + 4f1h2c sheep tile + 2f1h1c city -2*2 food->60 yield, 60 towards settler

So working max hammers, 11 turns for settler. If we go with a 2f1h1c tile instead of the 2f2h tile for the first 5 turns after growth, we still get settler in 11, but will have a bit more commerce to get through mining/BW. Is that worth it?

Worker:
t0 (current turn): walk to GH
t1: walk to sheep
t2: start pasture
t6: pasture done walk to GH
t7: mine GH
t11 (mine is how many turns?): --> ??? Finish road on cow, road towards NE?
In any case, seems t11 is the moment the settler comes about, so seems like a good (intermediate) stopping point if we also have to decide proximate worker actions.

Settler
Well, obviously as stated will come back before or just when it completes, but it seems we aren't quite definite about the settling spot. It's moderately important to know beforehand for fogbusting purposes. It seems wheat is one option, though personally I still fancy the site 1S of where warrior and scout are, basically because of high yield tiles at small size (and later it'll get crab for extra food and a second horse and hills for a good hammer city) and because it kind of seems to secure an interesting swath of land to the east including the marble spot (probably relocated 1SW of marble). If Peter settles around where the warrior and scout are, we really will be awfully boxed in imo, and most certainly cut off from the marble and beyond.

Tech: mining-> BW. BW will take a good while still. Judging by the power spikes of TSR and CGU I think there must be bronze readily available either on the city tile or on the grass hill, I suspect the latter.

Units: where shall we go...?
Personally I'm tempted to make a little tour with the archer to come back at the fort, but discovering some of those tile in the south. We have a spare promo should we encounter a nasty unit (combat being the obvious choice). First turn NW-SW, then SW, SW, NW, NE and back or something alike.

If the bear weren't there, where would we want to go with the scout? Check marble and head east, or go all the way west? My first hunch would be to stay put with the warrior, but run if the bear approaches. I'd hope some AI scout will take care of it or fatally weaken it, there is time before we might arrive with a settler (and as bears can't attack cities we could settle next to an animal it if it so happens, just don't lose visibility on approach; I mean to say we may not have the need to risk the warrior vs the bear). Meanwhile loop back with the scout NEish-SEish. The new warrior either check south or head north(west); if you want to stay put with the archer, then I'd say go south. Opinions?
 
Progress Graphs

Thanks for the score info Ron. I can try to figure out what other teams have done based on Score+Power graphs.

NB: Score formula = [pop*5000/732] + [land*2000/985] + [tech*2000/334] + [wonders*1000/310]

Land is number of land tiles, delayed by 20 turns. Hence, everyone gets a big score jump at T20 (from 0 to 9 land tiles) and T25 (9 to 21).

Tech is 1 point per ancient age, 2 per classic, 3 per medieval, etc.

Wonders is 5 points per World or National wonder. Everyone starts with a Palace, so typically 5.

The [X] operator means floor(), so, 5*1000/310 = 16


Power: See Demographics Explained thread; link in my signature.

We start with an archer (3000), a warrior (2000), The Wheel (4000) for opening Power of 9000.

MGN
Spoiler :

Like everyone else, we start with 1 population, 0 land (remember, land delayed by 20 turns), 3 techs, 5 wonder. 1*5000/732 + 0 + 3*2000/334 + 5*1000/310 = 39.

T15: we had learned a tech (AH), increasing our score to 45. This also saw our Power increase by 2000.

T19: none of this had changed.

Phoenix Rising
Spoiler :

PR are quite generous with the amount of info available on the progress graphs since they post saves quite often. Honestly, I feel a bit bad about reading into their opening like this. It might be worth having a discussion about it for future SGOTMs.

T1: Like us, they start with 39.

T13-T15: Somewhere between here have learned a tech that also gives 2000 Power. most likely AH. Could be Sailing, but that strikes me as very odd. Or Mining, except I think they would have that earlier than T13.

T19-T20: their score changes from 45 to 70 and power increases by 3000. They have produced a warrior (2000 power) and have 2 population (1000 power). Also, account is credited with 9 land tiles.
Score = [pop=2 land=9 tech=4 wonder=5] = 70.
Power = 2pop, Wheel, Archer, 2x warriors, AH = 14000.

T24: A large score increase, the predicted bonus from land tiles going up to 21. They've also learned a new tech that does not give power. Not mining or hunting... perhaps Pottery or Mysticism? Going for the Oracle? We know they have 21 land tiles, so possibly settled same location as us with no coastal tiles.
Score = [2 21 5 5] = 100.

T31: A small score increase together with an increase of 2000 power. Likely Mining tech.
[2 21 6 5] = 106.
Power = 2pop, Wheel, Archer, 2x warriors, AH, Mining = 16000.

T36: An extra 1000 power and extra 14 points. My guess, +2 population which includes settling city #2.
[4 21 6 5] = 120.
Power = 4pop, Wheel, Archer, 2x warriors, AH, Mining = 17000.

Add another pop at T38.
[5 21 6 5] = 127.

T42: Add another pop. Power increase another +1000 up to 18000.
[6 21 6 5] = 133.

T43: Big jump in power, up to 26000. Bronze Working. Also an extra population based on score increase.
[7 21 7 5] = 146.
Power = 7pop, Wheel, Archer, 2x warriors, AH, Mining, BW = 26000.

TSR
Spoiler :

Basically the same start as PR. Score from 39, 45, 100 as they get to the full 21 land tiles.

T43: they have score of 153, 7 more than PR. I guess they are all the same, except +1 population. Their power is 27000, 1000 more than PR, which corresponds to 8 population instead of 7.
Score = [8 21 7 5] = 153.
Power = 8pop, Wheel, Archer, 2x warriors, AH, Mining, BW = 27000.

T51: they've increased score by 13 to 166 and increased power by 31000 to 58000.
my guess for the score component is +1 pop and +1 tech. I guess the tech is high power value. Perhaps Archery (6000), IW (10000) or HBR already (10000). Is a T51 HBR possible here? Also, built a barracks (3000 each) and maybe chariots (4000 each) or axes (6000 each). One possibility: Archery (6000) + Barracks (3000) + 1x Chariot (4000) + 3x Axe (18000).
Alternative, Barracks (3000) + 7x chariot (28000). Chariot rush! Is it possible to produce a barracks + 7 chariots between T43 and T51?
Score = [9 21 8 5] = 166.
Power = 9pop, Wheel, Archer, 2x warriors, AH, Mining, BW, Archery, Barracks, 1x chariot, 3x axe = 58000.
Or: 9pop, Wheel, Archer, 2x warriors, AH, Mining, BW, Barracks, 7x chariot = 58000.

T53: Two turns later they've increased their score by 71 to 237. Possible land increases? +9 from city #2 (remember 20 turn delay). Possible wonder increases? eg, conquered the barb holy city or neighbour with early wonders? Population increase from conquering. A tech increase.
Loss of 4000 power. Could be any number of things, eg, single loss of chariot, or many losses offset my newly built units. Progress Graph game is getting very vague at this point.
Theories
1) The conquered 2 Wonders city theory: +4 population, +6 land tiles (eg, city #2 1N of wheat?), +0 tech, +2 wonders.
Score = [13 27 8 15] = 237.
Power = A loss or two.

2) The conquered 1 Wonder city theory: +6 population, +7 land tiles (eg, city #2 5NE of capital), +0 tech, +1 wonder.
Score = [15 28 8 10] = 237.

3) The conquered 0 Wonder city or multiple cities theory: +8 population, +8 land tiles (eg, city #2 on city ruins), +0 tech, +0 wonder.
Score = [17 29 8 5] = 237.

4) The peaceful expansion theory: +8 pop, +8 land tiles. Score as above... but impossible to peacefully gain +8 population in 2 turns without conquering. Surely?

Possibilities 2) and 3) seem plausible to me.

I think Nocho is correct, TSR have gone for a very early rush. Possibly through a Chariot rush.
 
Nice number crunching! Heres what realy happened:
Spoiler :
remember you may not read this while you're still playing!
Spoiler :
viking.jpg
 
It is good to see some fresh thoughts and plans flowing. :)

On worker actions after completing the sheep pasture, I agree with mining the grass hill. It will give us a third strong tile for the capital, and we will want to grow larger after the settler to take advantage of it. Probably by building another warrior. I think it should work out just about perfectly: Finish settler, then build warrior while working the two pastures for +6F/turn. We will have 2 food in the box after growing to size 2 next turn, so 4 turns should see Silver Lining grow to size 3. At 4 hammers/turn we should finish the warrior at the same time we grow to size 3. We can then build another settler (to claim whichever of wheat/northern site we did not take first, if it is still possible) or a worker or whatever.

So we could work the sheep tile (2F1H1C) rather than the forested sheep (2F2H) and get a little more commerce. I am not sure this is worth it since we are talking 5 turns, so only 5 beakers difference. That is about half of one turn's research right now. I think I would rather have the hammers as 1/3 of another warrior, or the start of a barracks. But we could take the commerce instead if we wanted. Once we plant our second city our research will have to drop from 100%, so maybe getting to BW one turn earlier would be useful?

I think the chariot rush explanation for TSR makes sense. I don't see how they could possibly get to BW early enough for an axe rush by T51. Maybe if they settled where they could work a coastal tile for more commerce? Otherwise I can't see BW finishing before ~T40 at the very earliest, leaving no time for building the axes. But I don't see how they build that many chariots in time, either. Well, I guess a mass chop fest after finishing BW around T40-42 might do it. But where to get enough workers, since they have grown a bunch of pop in the mean time? Can't chop additional workers without BW, can't grow while building workers...hmmm.

On the site for city #2, I still like by the wheat. Grass wheat, grass horse in first ring makes for excellent food for rapid growth, would already be connected by the existing road for some extra commerce (which we really need), and of course provides horses right away and elephants later once we can pop borders. The northern site has plains cows and plains horse, which will provide very good hammers but is rather short on food and will therefore grow rather slowly.

The northern site would help prevent us from being boxed in, keeping a path to further eastward expansion open. But if we are planning to rush a neighbor (or two, or three) then we do not really care about being boxed in by AI cities. We will take those cities for ourselves or raze them.

For the bear...not sure. I don't really like the odds defending on the forested hill, even with a couple turns of fortification. And I dislike risking our CG1 warrior doing it. We could send the new warrior in that direction, to give us two warriors available -- should pretty much guarantee defeating the bear although we could lose one of them. But I think it is better to just avoid the bear, and hope it is killed by an AI unit or eventually disappears as animals do after enough turns.
 
I have a new theory for why other teams are going for these early rushes...

It's obvious that we are boxed in. We are already discussing compromise along the lines of "we can have a city in the NE or the SE, but not both..." I suspect that this is exactly what has happened to other teams. They settled one of the two cities, had the AI take the other site and then said to themselves: "$#%! Fine! We'll take it from their cold dead hands!"

If this situation is inevitable, then I propose we aim to settle the NE site first. With the horses secured we face a choice:
1) Try to produce a settler and SETTLE the SE site.
OR
2) Immediately build chariots and CONQUER the SE site.

Note that I have changed my vote on city #2 - my initial choice was SE site with wheat+horses. The reason I now like NE site with cow+horses is the 3 forests. Those forests are 2 extra chariots in quick succession.


@Ororo - I only just realised now that I misrepresented your suggested city #2. You suggested 6N1E of the capital in between the horse and rice. It is a good looking long term site with lots of food and a good balance of resources. I think it also locks us into an inevitable war with Peter - as of T50 Peter's borders will expand to take over the Rice. Until we fight a lengthy culture war or capture Peter' capital the city is not very good.
 
Tentative PPP with some open questions

Capital: warrior->settler.
After growth to 2, work cow and sheep (2f2h tile) until other sheep is ready.

Settler starts with 1h overflow.
5 turns with cow 4f2h + 2f2h sheep tile + 2f1h1c city -2*2 food->9 yield, 45 towards settler
6 turns with cow 4f2h + 4f1h2c sheep tile + 2f1h1c city -2*2 food->60 yield, 60 towards settler

So working max hammers, 11 turns for settler. If we go with a 2f1h1c tile instead of the 2f2h tile for the first 5 turns after growth, we still get settler in 11, but will have a bit more commerce to get through mining/BW. Is that worth it?
:hammers:s sound better to me.
Worker:
t0 (current turn): walk to GH
t1: walk to sheep
t2: start pasture
t6: pasture done walk to GH
t7: mine GH
t11 (mine is how many turns?): --> ??? Finish road on cow, road towards NE?
In any case, seems t11 is the moment the settler comes about, so seems like a good (intermediate) stopping point if we also have to decide proximate worker actions.
I think a mine is 5 turns, so would be complete t11, worker ready to move again t12. That is good timing to then follow the settler to city #2.
Settler
Well, obviously as stated will come back before or just when it completes, but it seems we aren't quite definite about the settling spot. It's moderately important to know beforehand for fogbusting purposes. It seems wheat is one option, though personally I still fancy the site 1S of where warrior and scout are, basically because of high yield tiles at small size (and later it'll get crab for extra food and a second horse and hills for a good hammer city) and because it kind of seems to secure an interesting swath of land to the east including the marble spot (probably relocated 1SW of marble). If Peter settles around where the warrior and scout are, we really will be awfully boxed in imo, and most certainly cut off from the marble and beyond.
I am agreeing with you. City #2 in the NE. I wouldn't rule out 4NE of the capital (1W of your suggestion) since it claims an extra forest. Though it loses access to the marble and 2nd plains hill.
Tech: mining-> BW. BW will take a good while still. Judging by the power spikes of TSR and CGU I think there must be bronze readily available either on the city tile or on the grass hill, I suspect the latter.
Yes mining > BW. I'm not entirely convinced other teams have built axes, though anything is possible.
Units: where shall we go...?
Personally I'm tempted to make a little tour with the archer to come back at the fort, but discovering some of those tile in the south. We have a spare promo should we encounter a nasty unit (combat being the obvious choice). First turn NW-SW, then SW, SW, NW, NE and back or something alike.

If the bear weren't there, where would we want to go with the scout? Check marble and head east, or go all the way west? My first hunch would be to stay put with the warrior, but run if the bear approaches. I'd hope some AI scout will take care of it or fatally weaken it, there is time before we might arrive with a settler (and as bears can't attack cities we could settle next to an animal it if it so happens, just don't lose visibility on approach; I mean to say we may not have the need to risk the warrior vs the bear). Meanwhile loop back with the scout NEish-SEish. The new warrior either check south or head north(west); if you want to stay put with the archer, then I'd say go south. Opinions?
I'm nervous about the unfogged tile 5E of our city. A barbarian spawning there would be very annoying. I like your suggestion for the warrior to stay put but run away from the bear if threatened. Meanwhile, have the scout sit between the 2 cows (3E2N of capital) then it would fogbust the tile I noted above and also keep barbs away from the settler route.

I don't think new warrior should go too far away. Maybe just keep it in the northerly lands to fog bust, eg, near the rice or NW sheep.

For the archer: the land in the south looks like mostly jungle from earlier screenshots. I assume that revealing it with the archer won't change our mind regarding our next few city sites. I am inclined to keep the archer in the fort and wait until we have chariots to explore this area.
 
If we are indeed going through with the mounted rush idea, which I favor, then I also favor settling south for all the reasons h1 stated. We can get away with many fewer worker turns settling south. We are closer to Suli, both good and bad, insulating our cap, but closer to known enemy.

For speed of development I don't think it is even close, 2nd city south will develop much faster than 2nd city north because of the whip. For tech pace south is definitely better.

We need another worker asap imo.

Bit of cross posting with aj.

Mines take 4 turns to build.

(combat being the obvious choice)
Definitely not obvious choice imo. I would leave the archer in the fort. Obvious choice if threatened by something severely nasty would be CGIII.

I like new warrior going S-SW staying in forested hills.
 
Possible dot map attached.
Spoiler :
 
^ Ron, combat is the obvious choice IF marching around with archer. IF staying in the fort of course not.

Seems we're nicely split about where to settle. :lol: It's true wheat might develop faster, but I think it's strategically less important. I can be easily swayed, however.
 
We will need a second worker, but not quite immediately I think. If I am understanding the turn counts correctly, our current worker will be moving (2 turns) to the sheep and improving them (4 more turn). The settler will still have 6 turns remaining at that point, giving the worker time to move to and mine the grass hill. This gives the capital a third improved tile, so the existing worker can go with the settler to improve the new city. The capital grows to size 3 (should take 4 turns, during which we can build a warrior or start a barracks) to use the grass hill mine, then it can build a second worker. There will still be time remaining before BW completes, so the second worker can road the silver and forested sheep tiles as preparation for improving them.

On settling south (wheat) or north (probably 2N1W of the marble?), I prefer south. Both cities will get us horses. We don't know where copper might be, or iron, so can not judge on that basis. South eventually gets us elephants for happiness and WEs, north eventually gets us marble for possible later wonders. South will get us more commerce (immediate TR with Silver Lining, plus river-side tiles) and will grow faster for whipping and working additional tiles (like a mine on that grass river-side hill). North will have more hammers sooner, but will have less food and will grow more slowly. North does have some forests to chop while south has only 1 (assuming we settle on the burned city tile, which seems by far the best choice to get both horses and wheat first ring).

So I prefer south. I am more than half expecting the AIs to make the decision for us by beating us to at least one site. I really hope we do not get beaten to both.
 
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