Superheroes & representation (split from questions thread)

Split from the discussion in the questions-not-worth-their-own-thread thread.

brennan said:

...and what was it in 1938 when Superman first appeared?

Click to expand...

Like 40%? America has never been exclusively white, and it's certainly never been excursively male. (How would that even work?) And in 1938, the latter at least was firmly reflected in the comics industry, as it was well into the postwar period, with a mountain of "girls' comics" sitting on shelves alongside the "boys' comics", as well as plenty of non-gender-specific titles. It's only really in the last few decades, as kids have lost interest in comics and the medium's dominant consumer have instead turned out to be adolescents and adults, that these have died off. And it's not as if girls and women don't read comics, because they're reading them in larger numbers than they have for years, it's just that they're mostly bypassing the lumbering dinosaurs of Marvel and DC and heading for independent and foreign comics, which aren't so committed to the narrative primacy of straight white dudes. Marvel is attempting to keep up by altering the demographics of it rooster, as it has done many times in the past; the only real difference here is that it's extending these revisions to A-listers.

Besides, as I said, pleading demographics tends to hit the stumbling block that mainstream comics have historically been pretty bad at representing their own white male readership even in the United States. How many white male superheroes are Jewish, Polish, Cuban, Serbian? So far as the A-listers go, you've pretty much just got a Jewish Magneto and an informed Irish Steve Rogers/Captain America. So this is about lowest common denominators, not demographics, and it has traditionally been assumed that white, straight, Anglo-Celtic Protestant males, preferably Midwestern in origin, have been the lowest common denominators of American life. From a narrative standpoint, that's sixteen flavours of dumb, and it seems that it's becoming equally questionable from a commercial standpoint.

White, male writers and artists created white, male heroes because they were white and male. Some white, female characters became popular because, hey, guys do on occasion like girls - even the geekiest of us.

The largest demographic group inevitably gets disproportionate representation because there is no mechanism in a market for counteracting the tyranny of the majority.

Is this right, no. But it does not mean that there is rampant discrimination.

Click to expand...

I'm not claiming "rampant discrimination". I don't even know what that would mean, in this context. What I'm saying is that mainstream comics have traditionally been very bad at representing American society (let alone humanity-in-general), and that could stand to change. If it doesn't, the decline of superhero comics to a niche will just happen a littler quicker. I'm not terribly invested in either outcome, I'd just prefer the former for the sake of fans (or potential fans) who are quite happy to see a bit more diversity, and maybe don't deserve to lose the series they enjoy because manbabies don't know how to share.

Traitorfish you represent the new wave of politically correct activists trying to attack mainly male dominated interests.

You admit it yourself, you are "not invested" in how comics turn out, you do not really care; but you still venture an opinion that they need to do X, Y and Z in order to fullfill your desire for your "diverse" society. We are one step away from accusnig the comic book industry of outright "racism" here, which is the nuclear option. My position is far more reasonable. Don't alter the demographics of existing superheroes. If you think there is a market for a black/chinese/hispanic superhero than go ahead and make one. Nobody is stopping you.

A similiar thing is happening in videogames. Women like Anita Saakesian who does not play games and does not enjoy them; is doing her best to inject her toxic politically correct idealogy into the industry. Now the same industry is berated by blogs and articles every day complaining about the inherent sexism in videogames. It is an endless cultural critique. Now, the videogame industry is filled with shy, nerdy men who get down on their knees to kiss the feet of moaning, whinging women..just look at how many awards Saakasien has won in the last few awards for "services to the industry". It is pathetic. Feminists cannot tolerate male interests.

We are culturally inbibed with the view that strong white men are imbued with courage and heroism, in the same way we associate Jews and East-Asians with intelligence. I don't see the problem here. Plenty of superhero movies with non-white male protagonists tended to be subpar, and I wouldn't be surprised if the relation was actually causal: As if those movies were exclusively made with the goal of not having a white male protagonist.

Quackers said:

Traitorfish you represent the new wave of politically correct activists trying to attack mainly male dominated interests.

You admit it yourself, you are "not invested" in how comics turn out, you do not really care

Click to expand...

Point of clarification, I'm not invested in superhero comics. I like comics, I'm just not very big on capes. More into science fiction stuff, 2000AD and what have you.

...but you still venture an opinion that they need to do X, Y and Z in order to fullfill your desire for your "diverse" society. We are one step away from accusnig the comic book industry of outright "racism" here, which is the nuclear option. My position is far more reasonable. Don't alter the demographics of existing superheroes. If you think there is a market for a black/chinese/hispanic superhero than go ahead and make one. Nobody is stopping you.

Click to expand...

I think you seem to be confused about what the issue actually is, here. I'm not saying "there are no minority superheroes, this should change", I'm saying "there are minority superheroes, this is a good thing". The people who are demanding change (and like that Penny Arcade comics, by "people", I mean "racists") are those who want Marvel to revert to a clean slate of straight white males, who feel that the introduction of diversity is an offence to their dignity.

Superhero comics can continue to be bastions of white male suckitude, if they like. They don't really matter, any more, to the extent they ever did. I quoted John Darnielle as saying that it would have upset him, as a young man, to find out that norm-enforcing jocks read the same comics as him, but today's John Darnielle probably isn't reading many superhero comics, he'll be reading stuff by independent or foreign publishers. As I said, there are a lot of other comics now, not quite so narrow, and if anything these revisions are a response to a changing landscape. Marvel are introducing more major female and minority characters not out of some "politically correct" impulse, but because failing to do so would appear ridiculous. (DC are apparently quite content to look ridiculous; you can tell, because they keep letting Frank Miller write things.) That's a good thing, but I wouldn't be distraught if it didn't occur.

The tl;dr is, you're mistaking approval for a demand.

Kaiserguard said:

We are culturally inbibed with the view that strong white men are imbued with courage and heroism, in the same way we associate Jews and East-Asians with intelligence. I don't see the problem here.

Click to expand...

You don't see a problem with racial stereotyping?

Plenty of superhero movies with non-white male protagonists tended to be subpar, and I wouldn't be surprised if the relation was actually causal: As if those movies were exclusively made with the goal of not having a white male protagonist.

Click to expand...

That's verging on a conspiracy theory.

Traitorfish said:

Like 40%? America has never been exclusively white, and it's certainly never been excursively male. (How would that even work?)

Click to expand...

Traitorfish said:

And it's not as if girls and women don't read comics, because they're reading them in larger numbers than they have for years, it's just that they're mostly bypassing the lumbering dinosaurs of Marvel and DC and heading for independent and foreign comics

Click to expand...

Where are you getting this data? It's interesting but I'd like to confirm before committing it to memory.

Traitorfish said:

I think you seem to be confused about what the issue actually is, here. I'm not saying "there are no minority superheroes, this should change", I'm saying "there are minority superheroes, this is a good thing". The people who are demanding change (and like that Penny Arcade comics, by "people", I mean "racists") are those who want Marvel to revert to a clean slate of straight white males, who feel that the introduction of diversity is an offence to their dignity.

Click to expand...

There's no call for reversion. Marvel hasn't been all white for at nearly fifty years. What these people seek is a not a reversion, but a fundamental alteration in the representation of people in comics. They want to go back to a time that hasn't existed since before Kennedy was in power.

SS-18 ICBM said:

Where are you getting this data? It's interesting but I'd like to confirm before committing it to memory.

Click to expand...

1940 census says that the US was 89.8% white, although it doesn't give clear numbers for non-Latino whites. We can just round it up and say 45% non-Latino white males.

Recent market research suggests that 46% of comics fans are female. I don't doubt that women make up a considerably smaller share of actual purchases, but it's none the less clear that women are a significant portion of the comic industry's audience, and certainly of its potential audience. (I mean, if you as an editor are told that 46% of your potential readers are women, but that only (say) 10% of your actual readers are women, and the conclusion you draw from this is "women don't like comic books", then you are bad at your job.)

I'll admit that the second part, that women are mostly bypassing the Big Two, is more anecdotal, and I probably shouldn't lean very hard on anecdotes ("the women I've met like indie comics") to counter anecdotes ("I don't know any women who like comics"). But, for what it's worth, the women I know who reader comics are more likely to independent comics or manga. Or Star Wars, come to think of it, which at least qualifies as "not superheroes".

Traitorfish said:

1940 census says that the US was 89.8% white, although it doesn't give clear numbers for non-Latino whites. We can just round it up and say 45% non-Latino white males.

Click to expand...

Was the proportion of Latinos that high more than half a century ago?

Traitorfish said:

Recent market research suggests that 46% of comics fans are female. I don't doubt that women make up a considerably smaller share of actual purchases, but it's none the less clear that women are a significant portion of the comic industry's audience, and certainly of its potential audience. (I mean, if you as an editor are told that 46% of your potential readers are women, but that only (say) 10% of your actual readers are women, and the conclusion you draw from this is "women don't like comic books", then you are bad at your job.)

Click to expand...

Oh, women reading comics doesn't surprise me. It's the part where they went for independent and foreign comics instead of the domestic giants.

Well, as I say in the edit, it's a bit anecdotal. And, on reflection, perhaps skewed towards British consumption, which is already less superhero-saturated in the US.

But, and I admit this sounds like a cop-out, the numbers aren't really the main point here. It's enough that independent and foreign comics represent a potential alternative, that a significant number of women (and for that matter, other people who aren't straight white men) prefer them over Big Two superhero comics, and that Marvel (if not DC) seems to be gradually realising this, by introducing a greater deal of diversity to its line-up.

Quackers said:

Traitorfish you represent the new wave of politically correct activists trying to attack mainly male dominated interests.

You admit it yourself, you are "not invested" in how comics turn out, you do not really care; but you still venture an opinion that they need to do X, Y and Z in order to fullfill your desire for your "diverse" society. We are one step away from accusnig the comic book industry of outright "racism" here, which is the nuclear option. My position is far more reasonable. Don't alter the demographics of existing superheroes. If you think there is a market for a black/chinese/hispanic superhero than go ahead and make one. Nobody is stopping you.

A similiar thing is happening in videogames. Women like Anita Saakesian who does not play games and does not enjoy them; is doing her best to inject her toxic politically correct idealogy into the industry. Now the same industry is berated by blogs and articles every day complaining about the inherent sexism in videogames. It is an endless cultural critique. Now, the videogame industry is filled with shy, nerdy men who get down on their knees to kiss the feet of moaning, whinging women..just look at how many awards Saakasien has won in the last few awards for "services to the industry". It is pathetic. Feminists cannot tolerate male interests.

Click to expand...

Wasn't Sarkeesian shown as a professional troll, though? Her and her boyfriend just cashed in on this wave of madness she created. She doesn't give a monkey's toss about games but has reduced several major game sites to their knees over the fear of being politically incorrect.

My main question is: do homosexual/minorities/disabled whatever really feel so put out that they aren't "represented"? As a straight white male, I was so offended I had to play as a women in Tomb Raider and Portal! Oh wait, no I wasn't. I didn't care. I even had to play as a blue androgynous creature in Oddworld. The horror.

I'm reminded of children. You know how 10 year old boys only play with men and girls only play with female dolls? This mentality reminds me of that. "I want to play as people like ME! I want my own way!"

salty mud said:

My main question is: do homosexual/minorities/disabled whatever really feel so put out that they aren't "represented"? As a straight white male, I was so offended I had to play as a women in Tomb Raider and Portal! Oh wait, no I wasn't. I didn't care. I even had to play as a blue androgynous creature in Oddworld. The horror.

Click to expand...

This is pretty telling, actually: that you, as a straight white man, think that the representation of anything that is not a straight white man is analogous to the failure to represent anything that isn't a straight white man. That the existence of non-white, non-straight, non-male superheroes should be of equal concern for you as the existence of nothing but white, straight, male superheroes should be for other people. It verges on self-parody.

Traitorfish said:

You don't see a problem with racial stereotyping?

Click to expand...

To some extent, racial stereotyping is based on real-life experiences. A few people within racial communities may exhibit traits that make them more at home within another racial group than their own, though these people are the exceptions that prove the rules. I am not convinced you can look this away by saying 'it is oppression'.

Traitorfish said:

1940 census says that the US was 89.8% white, although it doesn't give clear numbers for non-Latino whites. We can just round it up and say 45% non-Latino white males.

Recent market research suggests that 46% of comics fans are female. I don't doubt that women make up a considerably smaller share of actual purchases, but it's none the less clear that women are a significant portion of the comic industry's audience, and certainly of its potential audience. (I mean, if you as an editor are told that 46% of your potential readers are women, but that only (say) 10% of your actual readers are women, and the conclusion you draw from this is "women don't like comic books", then you are bad at your job.)

I'll admit that the second part, that women are mostly bypassing the Big Two, is more anecdotal, and I probably shouldn't lean very hard on anecdotes ("the women I've met like indie comics") to counter anecdotes ("I don't know any women who like comics"). But, for what it's worth, the women I know who reader comics are more likely to independent comics or manga. Or Star Wars, come to think of it, which at least qualifies as "not superheroes".

Click to expand...

As the resident active OT person who happens to be female, I'll give my 2 cents here...

I don't read superhero comics anymore. They bore me. When I was much younger (younger than 10), I loved the comics based on the Saturday morning cartoons: The Herculoids and Birdman, to name two. Oh, and Underdog. I also enjoyed Shazzan (about 2 teenagers, a flying camel, and a giant genie in an Arabian Nights setting). Other comics I read back then included Archie, Casper, Richie Rich, various Disney characters, and a couple of westerns: The Rawhide Kid and Kid Colt.

Later on, I got interested in Tarzan and still have quite a few of those. I've got adaptations of various SF books and movies, such as Dune (Lynch movie) and Logan's Run (the novels). I collected Star Trek comics over the years and lost interest in most of them. The only comics I loved and would never part with are the ones based on The Crow (comics, not the graphic novels, which I also own).

I spent over 10 years buying and reading Knights of the Dinner Table, but had a serious falling out with the owners/writers 8 years ago, and haven't touched it since - not even to get the special Fuzzy Knights strip in their 200th issue. But Fuzzy Knights itself is wonderful, the author/photographer is someone I consider a friend, and I really wish he'd publish one of the stories he did that never appeared in KODT or on their site.

I still enjoy Archie comics and have been happily (with the author's blessing) writing Fuzzy Knights fanfic. But stuff like Superman, and the rest holds no interest for me. As for manga, I find that sort of thing utterly creepy.

salty mud said:

I'm reminded of children. You know how 10 year old boys only play with men and girls only play with female dolls? This mentality reminds me of that. "I want to play as people like ME! I want my own way!"

Click to expand...

I had Ken dolls when I was 10...

salty mud said:

Wasn't Sarkeesian shown as a professional troll, though? Her and her boyfriend just cashed in on this wave of madness she created. She doesn't give a monkey's toss about games but has reduced several major game sites to their knees over the fear of being politically incorrect.

Click to expand...

I checked her wikipedia and she is still getting nominated for awards by big tech/game firms. Looks like she is still cashing in. It is disgusting. Hopefully her comeuppance is around the corner.

My main question is: do homosexual/minorities/disabled whatever really feel so put out that they aren't "represented"? As a straight white male, I was so offended I had to play as a women in Tomb Raider and Portal! Oh wait, no I wasn't. I didn't care. I even had to play as a blue androgynous creature in Oddworld. The horror.

I'm reminded of children. You know how 10 year old boys only play with men and girls only play with female dolls? This mentality reminds me of that. "I want to play as people like ME! I want my own way!"

Click to expand...

Traitorfish is actually pandering to racists or racist views when he wants to see more ethnic superheroes. You see, little Pablo cannot possibly emphasise and look up to Superman because he is a white man (well he is an alien). If it isn't that, it means little Pablo is being deliberately excluded in a racist fashion because Superman doesn't have the same skin tone.

I reject these notions. Little Pablo can look up to Superman and consider him in the same way a white or black child can. From my own experience this is feasible. When I grew up I liked The Rock; despite my British background and his American/Samoan/Black one I could enjoy watching him on WWF...In the world of Traitorfish and those obsessed with race this is impossible, you're segregated by skin colour.

Traitorfish said:

Like 40%?

Besides, as I said, pleading demographics tends to hit the stumbling block that mainstream comics have historically been pretty bad at representing their own white male readership even in the United States. How many white male superheroes are Jewish, Polish, Cuban, Serbian?

From a narrative standpoint, that's sixteen flavours of dumb, and it seems that it's becoming equally questionable from a commercial standpoint.

Click to expand...

I'll repeat myself, because none of this seems to take what I said into account:

"White, male writers and artists created white, male heroes because they were white and male. Some white, female characters became popular because, hey, guys do on occasion like girls - even the geekiest of us.

The largest demographic group inevitably gets disproportionate representation because there is no mechanism in a market for counteracting the tyranny of the majority."

The people who wrote the things knew who they were and knew who they wanted to write about and they did so. You may not like the result, but that doesn't mean that there is any obligation upon Marvel or DC or whoever to suddenly turn half their stable into ethnic minorities or introduce a new, Jewish version of the Avengers.

Traitorfish said:

I'm not claiming "rampant discrimination". I don't even know what that would mean, in this context. What I'm saying is that mainstream comics have traditionally been very bad at representing American society (let alone humanity-in-general), and that could stand to change.

Click to expand...

...and who has disagreed? Nobody i've seen is automatically opposed to change, only the sort of in-your face change that is blatantly ideologically motivated and ruins the continuity and verisimilitude for fans.

Kaiserguard said:

We are culturally inbibed with the view that strong white men are imbued with courage and heroism

Click to expand...

Speak for yourself.

Traitorfish said:

The people who are demanding change (and like that Penny Arcade comics, by "people", I mean "racists") are those who want Marvel to revert to a clean slate of straight white males, who feel that the introduction of diversity is an offence to their dignity.

Superhero comics can continue to be bastions of white male suckitude, if they like.

Click to expand...

As pointed out above, that's an obvious strawman, people are not on the whole objecting to change, only to the manner of it. Your willingness to ascribe racism to your interlocutors and others who share their opinion is a particularly ugly habit people have.

This is pretty telling, actually: that you, as a straight white man, think that the representation of anything that is not a straight white man is analogous to the failure to represent anything that isn't a straight white man. That the existence of non-white, non-straight, non-male superheroes should be of equal concern for you as the existence of nothing but white, straight, male superheroes should be for other people. It verges on self-parody.

Click to expand...

"Check your privilege"? Seriously? I haven't come across a debate tactic in recent years I find more contemptible than saying 'your opinion doesn't count because you're a white man'.

Traitorfish said:

This is pretty telling, actually: that you, as a straight white man, think that the representation of anything that is not a straight white man is analogous to the failure to represent anything that isn't a straight white man. That the existence of non-white, non-straight, non-male superheroes should be of equal concern for you as the existence of nothing but white, straight, male superheroes should be for other people. It verges on self-parody.

Click to expand...

I'm struggling to understand what you're saying here. It's almost like word games 'how many times can I put "straight white man" in a paragraph.'

I like going to the superhero movies, but I didn’t read comics growing up, so the following commentary might be misguided, and true comic-book fans should feel free to disregard it if so. But in one of the X-men movies, I had an experience that made me think that perhaps comics had been a relatively progressive medium in these matters of representing race, gender and sexual orientation.

The moment that I have in mind is that exchange between the anti-mutant Congressman his son who is a mutant with wings. In the movie, they played it just like a conservative man not being able to accept a son who was gay, but the “mutant” son finally coming to accept and even celebrate the difference that made society, and even his own family, reject him. I thought, “oh this has been the appeal of comic books; under the cover of fantasy, it lets young people explore and come to grips with issues that, in society at large, are more contentious or taboo.”

I may be predisposed to such a view because of an essay I read once by John Updike that persuasively claimed that Mickey Mouse should be taken as black, and that he thus provided a mechanism for negotiating racial tensions, in the era of his comics and movies. I took the old “Amgiguously Gay Duo” shorts on SNL as making a similar point about how superhero sidekicks may have functioned for gay readers. I read Bewitched as being essentially about mixed marriages (in an era when the challenges of such marriages first needed to be thought through) even though both of the characters are white.

In this reading, the Hulk’s being green-skinned matters. It can serve as a roundabout way of raising and addressing issues of skin color in a society that has difficulties directly addressing such matters. The number of superheroes who, in their superhero state, have their identities concealed (Iron Man, Spiderman) seems to me to allow for a significant degree of identification even by people who don’t share the subject position of the alter ego. (I note that the two who are provoking controversy have their subject positions visible even in their superhero state, and of course, you’re almost never going to change Th♂r to Th♀r without it being a thing.)

All I guess I’m saying is, even if most of the alter egos have been straight, white males, I wouldn’t automatically regard the superhero comic form as reactionary, or that the identity of the alter ego is the primary way in which the form could address issues of race, gender and sexual orientation. Fantasy provides a space in which to safely explore and consider issues that are volatile in the culture at large. If now those things can be be considered directly, and the houses see it as in their economic interest to do so, so be it.

salty mud said:

My main question is: do homosexual/minorities/disabled whatever really feel so put out that they aren't "represented"? As a straight white male, I was so offended I had to play as a women in Tomb Raider and Portal! Oh wait, no I wasn't. I didn't care. I even had to play as a blue androgynous creature in Oddworld. The horror.

Click to expand...

As a WASP I'm never invited to the secret meetings where those people decide on their policy positions, but - from some reading - this is the impression I get:

1) With kids the concern is that they're not all given a proper grounding in post-modernism and deconstruction from a sufficiently early age. So minority kids are sometimes vulnerable to getting the impression that the only proper people for positive roles are people who are not like them.

2) For adults, either they want to avoid #1, or they're just weary of the ingroup/outgroup distinctions. This may be because they're whiny. This may be because they actually think increasing respect and understanding for minorities are good things in-themselves.

Also: People who are discriminated against sometimes get the idea that it's important to fight against discrimination. Even if it's only implicit and likely unintentional.

TF:

From a narrative standpoint, that's sixteen flavours of dumb, and it seems that it's becoming equally questionable from a commercial standpoint

Click to expand...

(Emphasis added.)

brenen

"White, male writers and artists created white, male heroes because they were white and male.

Click to expand...

The intersection between those two points is the idea that comic book writers are not very good writers. Or are simply lazy.

You may not like the result, but that doesn't mean that there is any obligation upon Marvel or DC or whoever to suddenly turn half their stable into ethnic minorities or introduce a new, Jewish version of the Avengers.

Click to expand...

"Obligation?" (no qualifiers.) "Suddenly turn half"?
I missed the post where he said that stuff. I just saw the one where he explicitly rejected that position.

Quackers said:

I checked her wikipedia and she is still getting nominated for awards by big tech/game firms. Looks like she is still cashing in. It is disgusting. Hopefully her comeuppance is around the corner.

Click to expand...

A woman talking about Misogyny and sexist portrayals of characters in games?

How immoral!

What is more "disgusting" are the MRAs cashing in on the hate wave that Anita has against her, it's literally fashionable at this point, but it's telling you're not disgusting by that, but find the very idea of her doing what she does as an affront to you.

useless said:

A woman talking about Misogyny and sexist portrayals of characters in games?

How immoral!

What is more "disgusting" are the MRAs cashing in on the hate wave that Anita has against her, it's literally fashionable at this point, but it's telling you're not disgusting by that, but find the very idea of her doing what she does as an affront to you.

Click to expand...

I understand from your post that you haven't seen Anita Sarkeesian's videos and how full of utter crap and slander they are, and are conveniently ignoring the fact she is a successful con artist due to people like you actually giving her the time of day.