Where to settle? [Emperor map]

Krugi

At heart
Joined
Apr 24, 2010
Messages
120


  • Standard Continents map (7 6 AI opponents, Temperate climate, Medium sea level)
  • A random unrestricted leader/civ pairing turned out as Willem of Germany [free techs: Hunting/Mining]
  • Difficulty level: Emperor
  • Speed: Normal
  • No huts/events.

If anyone wants to play along, I have attached the initial save. The map may prove more interesting than this first image would suggest.

Here's how I proceeded:
Spoiler :
Moving the scout NW-SW uncovered nothing special. Settling on the plains hill ensured that I could work with a food surplus of six as fast as possible, thanks to picking up the pigs. Another obvious choice was to research Animal Husbandry first, finishing the worker simultaneously with the tech and improving my best tiles. I took the scarcity of forests as a sign that I should best delay Bronze Working for a while and rely on the high :food:/:hammers: output of my capital to produce the first settler without whipping. The capital, by the way, may start with strong resources for early production but doesn't look particularly suited for the usual Bureaucracy cottage spam. In fact, I'm not sure how I want to configure it.

Animal Husbandry revealed horses south of the cows, further reducing the value of Bronze Working. I would research The Wheel next, as there was no immediate need for Agriculture; not only do I want to lay roads to newly-founded cities in advance if possible, but early chariots would keep my cities safe from all Barbarian units apart from spearmen for the first 80 turns, possibly saving me the need to research Archery, and could also escort settlers at equal movement points. Obviously, the beeline to Alphabet increases in strength with Creative libraries available at Writing; less distractions on the tech tree are appreciated.

On turn 23, however, I had to come to an actual decision -- where to settle further cities? The settler will come out of production around T30.



(1) The plains gold / grassland hill pigs site cannot be passed up, of course, and will likely pay for itself in maintenance; problematically, though, pasturing the pigs would require removing the vexing intrusion of jungle on that tile. Unless I'm mistaken, I would need Iron Working before any substantial food surplus could be accessed by that city. The question is whether the gold tile would present such an immediate advantage that I should not risk losing the city to notoriously Imperialistic Joao of China (a strong combination), whose capital is located just west of the twinned desert gold hills. (I might let him plant it and capture it later, of course.) The presence of double gems close to my capital suggests that I'm not in a rush for gold, though.

(2) Another prospective plant would attempt to pick up some of the floodplains west of Berlin and farm at least one of them, either sporadically stealing the pigs from the capital for bursts of growth (2W of capital), or ignoring the pigs and planting the city so as to pick up the gold (3W of capital). The downside here is that I'm either not picking up a resource, or the city won't have any food resources except for farmed floodplains until I discover Biology.

(3) The one single food resource anywhere near me seems to be that dry corn near the peaks. A city planted on the nearby plains hill would be easily defensible, seal off Bismarck of Babylon to the south (his cultural borders begin near the deer), and build settlers/workers more competently than the other sites (thanks to six forest chops, +5 food surplus, and the extra hammer per turn). It could also work cottages on the floodplains quite early by researching Agri -> BW -> Pottery. In this case, I'd have the problem of five turns spent idly waiting for the border pop before I could do anything with the site, since I would lack BW for chopping and none of the initial tiles can be irrigated right now.

In conclusion, despite costing me 15 gold for no recompense initially, I would assess the third site as the strongest one; but I'd like to hear from more skillful players before I might wreck my economy on a whim. ;)

I wonder how valuable a beeline to Iron Working rather than Alphabet might prove; the double gems site still needs more scouting before I judge it, but the huge commerce per turn could easily make up for delaying libraries no matter the quality of the other tiles in that location. I've discussed the western pigs already, and the dry rice near that little inlet still passes for a food resource, if the worst kind imaginable. :lol:
 

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I'd probably settle on the PH that the scout is standing on and tech AH first. It's not the best capitol location, but at least you have food and ivory. You should move the scout somewhere before settling though.

Edit: Just realized you already played the opening.
 
I probably would have done the same. The lack of any other hills mitigated by the cows and elephants.
 
Whoops, I should clarify that the thread title doesn't refer to the starting settler.

Edit: The thread should have read "How to settle?" -- I'm aiming to learn about how to play the initial phase of expansion (roughly T30-T80) optimally so that I can move up to Immortal difficulty, with some of my questions being:

  • Which spots should I settle in the first place, and in which order? How do I assess the short-term and long-term advantages of a given site?
  • How should I best produce the necessary settlers and workers?
  • How does the map influence the optimal number of settlers and workers?
  • What are the feasible tech paths and beelines? How does the map modify the value of certain techs such as Pottery / BW / IW?
  • How do I best balance maintenance costs against research?
  • At which point do granaries become profitable?
  • When should I whip the capital, and when should I grow it?
  • How should I develop a capital that cannot work many cottages nor specialists? Should I prioritize Communism rather than the usual Liberalism -> Nationalism -> Military Tradition line and aim to win late-game fueled by Kremlin whips / rush-buying? (The German tank may actually see play for once if I do this.) -- To generalize this question, how can I deduce my grand strategy from the early game?
  • How many chops should I conduct before Maths?
  • How do I determine which of the early wonders I should aim for (mostly Pyramids, Oracle, GLH), if any? If I find doubler resources on the map in poor locations, should I still settle them?
  • Horse archers or catapults (possibly elepults)?
  • How early should I produce a Great Scientist to install the Academy?

I believe that this part of the game is when optimal play makes the most difference, thus I want to learn as much as I can about it. The Nobles' Club seems to have vanished since I last visited, unfortunately. :(
 
I played another turnset up to T40:

Spoiler :

I have made a few mistakes in assessing the benefits of the plains hill/dry corn site. There are seven forests to chop, even eight if I should deny a chop to poor Berlin, and I could irrigate one of Berlin's second-ring grassland river tiles to minimize the number of turns spent on working unimproved tiles before the corn would be improved. The maintenance cost was lower than I had figured, too; only at size 2 did it increase to -3 :gold: per turn. Compared to the lackluster capital, I should consider this a pearl of a city.

Hamburg was thus founded on T30. The master plan is to sink 2000 hammers into the Elbphilharmonie and then produce a warrior or affordable student housing or something.



I have two workers, one irrigating the corn at Hamburg (S-SW of that city), one having just finished the other half of a road east of Berlin. The farming worker will be able to move into a forest immediately before BW finishes.

Hamburg is working an unimproved floodplain for a turn before the farm is finished; this couldn't be helped, unfortunately. The screenshot shows a warrior under construction, but I have already replaced it with a worker, which can be whipped, perhaps assisted by a chop, in the next few turns.

Berlin is building another settler (19/100) at 17 combined :food:/:hammers: per turn. Since Bronze Working will be available in two turns, I must decide if I should revolt to Slavery at once and double-whip him. At 9/28 :food: currently stored, regrowth to size 3 will take three turns (working pigs and plains cows for +7 food at size 2) during which I cannot work the riverside ivory, delaying the next tech by nine raw commerce (and more than that because of pre-req modifiers). On the other hand, Berlin has no useful tiles to grow onto in the near future, except for the farm that Hamburg is working; growth to size 6 takes four turns at +5 food (1/30) followed by five turns at +6 food, after which I would double-whip to end up with a size 4 capital, at a time when the city would almost have recovered from whip anger according to the other plan. Therefore, the whip shall be cracked without delay.

Where should the settler go? Joao has not settled near the western gold yet in spite of ocean and jungle obstructing his expansion into every other direction; so far, he might not even have placed his second city at all. An aggressive landgrab could still be possible in that region. The city would not be connected by road immediately, though; I do not have so much worker labor to spare that I could road a distance of six tiles from my capital right now. A chariot, presently fogbusting the general area as seen above, could escort the settler.

Other sensible locations are marked with "X?" in the screenshot. The desert stone location in the utmost southeast can access flatland pigs in the first or second ring depending on the exact site (not pictured), but virtually nothing else of interest (no chops, either). If I do not settle this spot immediately, Bismarck will probably claim this location for himself, though; the mini-map reveals that he has already placed one of his cities in the neighborhood.

The double gems site looks most promising, though. Even before Iron Working, I can at least farm the dyes for a 3/0/3 tile (better than a Golden Age farm), steal Berlin's plains cow to grow, and work three grassland mines to stagnate at size four. Moreover, I could finish the necessary roads synchronously with the settler. I have one issue with this spot nonetheless: I would not be expanding into the direction of any opponent, but onto a safe peninsula, and the third city would probably have to be settled in one of the mediocre locations west of the capital.

The tech path after BW forks into two possibilities: should I take Pottery or Iron Working first? If I take Pottery, Hamburg can develop two floodplains cottages ~20 turns earlier; I doubt that I need granaries just yet, though. IW means that I can get to Pottery and all subsequent techs (Writing, Alphabet) much faster in the short term, at the downside of delaying cottages and granaries by ~20 turns.
 
I'm also playing on emperor and am pretty impressed with your start so not sure what I could contribute. Map looks very tough with so few sources of food.

However were it me I would settle on the desert hill 1S of your 2 x's. Allows 3FP in the city which could work the gold. Don't see any better source of food from what you've reveled so far. I would prioritise an extra chariot to explore further.
 
Can't see very well but did you say that there's jungle directly on the pigs? if not, 1E of the pigs is good here, so you can use it as a Production city.

The next best city to plant is probably one SW of the gold on the eastern coast. It won't be able to grow until you work the sugar and a farm, but it's the most beneficial city you can plant right now just to work the gold and connect the luxury. I wouldn't recommend such a play normally if there was more food, but that's what the map gave you.

The X site north of the dye next. Farm the dye tile, work the grass hill, and if you get the chance, work the flat cottage for your capitol, but that will not likely happen. Farm the other grassland title and whip often.

After those cities, I would stop settling more and go construction + HBR to elepult rush your southern neighbor. You'll see more when you get OBs, but they'll probably have better cities for commerce.

As for tech, it's a bit awkward. Do you have Mansa? If you have espionage and can see him getting writing it would be reasonable to skip straight to construction and HBR, as you can get alpha from him soon enough. Otherwise, pottery is going to be a good self tech, as you will want granaries up. Alpha is awkward as you self teched everything but sailing and pottery already.

Great scientist isn't a priority, but if you have the time to get a library in your capitol, work the scientists if you don't have anything to whip. You'll probably get a better source of Gp from the ai, and your start is better suited towards production.

*edit I just realized you were playing Willem so you can adjust cities a bit for better tiles. Since you have cheap libraries, early writing >library > gs is strong to bulb maths on the way to construction.
 
1) settling a spot requires some thought, but generally settling cities is a GOOD idea. So its one of those situations where what you're really assesing is how it hurts you rather than how it helps you. Generally its always a good idea if it doenst delay your tech too much( specificially alpha/currency/CS, this is a judgement call based on what you gain in production vs how much that city will cost you in maintanence. So generally settling a 3rd or 4th city that will work a gold tile, is always going to be worth settling, assuming you can spare the 120 hammers for the settler and the worker turns. A production city is also definitely worth it in the long term, but in the short term it may not be.

2) as far as workers go, with good management, you may not need as many as you think, or you may need more it kind of depends on your playstyle. As for settlers, generally you can chop the first one or two out very quickly, or you can take a slowbuild and maybe whip them out. This of course depends on food situation and forest situations. Sometimes it may be worth it to grow to 6 and 3 pop whip, other times u may just want to slowbuild them to avoid growth, sometimes u may not want to whip away tiles and just chop them while you slowbuild.

3) not sure, but it doestn scale if thats what you were hoping. even on the bigger maps if you spam cities as quick as you can while defending the outer ones, sort of like civ 3 - you will go bankrupt quickly.

4) this also depends, sometims you will want to beeline oracle and try to gain a tech lead/military lead that way, then take better land, which after seeing your screenshots might be a viable solution here at least on emperor. Beeling pottery as far as im concerened and im an immortal player with very little deity experience - is fine, you cant really go wrong getting that early GS-> academy and spamming cottages, it may not be optimal or get you into HoF, but it'll generally work well enough to gain you some sort of lead. Iw is not normally a good idea as far as i know unless you're playing rome. Bw is always a key tech if you have lots of food/whip or you need to chop. This generally means you go pottery soon after though, to sustain all the new cities or new troops your pumping out.

5) once you get to currency it doesnt really matter, you can build wealth and youll have 2 traderoutes and pretty much any city is going to be profitable at that point, ESPECIALLY if you use the whip frequently and keep them small. Courthouses help though too, so do resource vs gold trades and things like that. you get a tech lead, trade it all for gold, get resource trades, use spies to sabotage iron then trade it them, that sort of thing you will get better at this, and at immortal and especially deity you wont be able to get enough cities for over REX'ing to be a problem anyway.

6) granaries are always profitable, they grow cottage cities quicker, they are a huge bump in production for the whip, and theyre cheap and you can get them early to further add to their value. You should be whipping these in very quickly. The exception is a city that has no food resource but has an iron/bronze tile. In those cities, it takes so long to grow that early on its probably more worthwhile to just use the 1 tile to spam workers or whatever, then get the granary when you can improve a few more tiles for that city. Theres no point in putting a granary in a city that cant whip efficiently( youd need a pretty big food/granary advantage to be more efficent than a 1gold5hammer tile ). That said, a granary is still a good idea, but not as important as a worker or whatever else at the point. usually granary is #1 build in any city though.

7) whip when unhappiness OR unhealthiness becomes a problem, or you dont have anything to grow onto(and have somethign to build), or you really need the production!, say to get more settlers out, or you're in a hurry. These apply more early than late, cause after a certain time you're just going to want it to grow. If you go beauro and academy etc, you want a big city with big trade routes and lots of tiles.

8) this is an interesting question, and it has more to do with low commerce start than anything. If you can find a way to alphabet, you can always just turn it into a production city that builds nothing but research... or wealth if necessary. You can turn it into an NE city and run specialists if you have lots of food/mids or some situation like that. You can cottage as much as you can. You can use your early production to rush someone and use their land to cottage up and move your capital. The real problem here is, if you have 5 cities, the communism thing isnt going to help you. Beauro is strong because it comes ealry, and its great if you dont have many cities to begin with - so even if your start is not strong, you can always jsut move your capital. Or go beauro but use it for its production bonus and not its commerce bonus. Plop your academy elsewhere. As far as deciding this kind of thing early its probably counterproductive. its a snowbally game and if you get behind youll probably just get farther behind. In this kind of situation it may be best to try and oracle something, spam trade techs, go to war, or go for culture/relgious victories etc, get creative.

9) it depends i guess. obviusly its better to wait, but if you need the production quickly for some reason you may as well chop. Generally people chop for early settlers/workers or early rushes, or wonders. I look at it more like a benefit either way. I mean at worst, you only lose 10 hammers per forest, and thats really not that much in the long term. Sometimes it takes awhile to get math, maybe way longer than you want to wait to chop out the settlers and cottage the land.

10) on higher difficulties their all pretty difficult. I feel like on immortal you can get oracle 9 times out of 10 if you really try for it, but that doesnt always make it a good idea. Mids youll get less often i feel like especially if you dont have industrious or stone or the right early techs. And it requires ALOT of hammers, so it will also cripple your early expansion. Generally most of them are not worth building if you dont have the right starting techs or the associated resource. You definetely need one or the other, and the land matters too, sometimes you have no reason NOT to go for mids, you cranked out 2 settlers and those cities have plenty of production and good tiles, now you need mids or research, so worst case scenario you get fail gold, and if you have stone, then its really delicious fail gold.

11) Im biased lol, i LOVE ha rushes. Ive done elepult as well, but i dont like how it transitions into cuirs, cause the catapaults end up sort of useless except to maybe bait out a stack and demolish it. Both work though, however, just because you get ivory, i wouldnt say elepult is guaranteed to work. It requires alot of teching, and if you can get that far, you can probably lib MT anyway. Hard to say, someone with more experience catapulting might be able to answer this better.

12) depending on how many cities you have, id do it as soon as possible - im biased toward lib games though and cottaging my capital. whip out that library and grow back and run 2 scientist. the important thing to remember is that early on, those scientist are probably more valuable than any tile they could be working. Also, the first GP pops pretty quick, so if you delay him 50 turns, you lose quite a bit of research and culture if that matters. It doenst hurt to delay it a bit but usually theres not much reason unless your early rushing. As soon as you get writing, id start considering how quickly you can afford to run 2 scientist and forgo that production.


I believe that this part of the game is when optimal play makes the most difference, thus I want to learn as much as I can about it. The Nobles' Club seems to have vanished since I last visited, unfortunately.

i agree. and i agree, i just came back as well, and was hoping to find IU or NC but nothing :(

you can always revisit them though, im sure theirs a thread with at least 100 games in each of those.
 
Thank all of you for the good advice. I think I'll play the next turnset in the evening today.

However were it me I would settle on the desert hill 1S of your 2 x's. Allows 3FP in the city which could work the gold. Don't see any better source of food from what you've reveled so far. I would prioritise an extra chariot to explore further.
I agree, that looks like the strongest site for a gold-mining city. Access to stone would also allow Hamburg to chop out the Pyramids using 5-6 pre-Maths chops; I do have three cities that could feasibly muster the food to employ a total of six Scientists in Representation. There's the risk of losing the 'Mids to one of the three Industrial leaders around (probably Huayna, who has the highest probability to build wonders, but Bismarck could be a strong contender if he founds his next city near the stone) -- then again, it may be a good idea for me to simply turn forests into :gold:, since I'm even less eager to convert :commerce: into :gold: when I have poor :commerce: in the first place.

In the long term, three floodplains are slightly sub-optimal compared to two or four because every floodplain adds 0.4 to the health cap, rounded down; but I don't think this will matter when the city has access to fresh water and I can connect three health resources if need be. The city won't grow all that much, anyway. Better to have eight excellent tiles than twenty good tiles that you can't even work simultaneously before corporations / Biology.

I'll see to building the second chariot, but I feel like another worker is necessary for Hamburg to chop out the granary as soon as possible while I'm also improving the newly-settled site with at least one worker. The chariot won't have much to explore, anyway; I have located Joao, Huayna and Bismarck's capitals, beyond which there is only tundra and ocean, and the jungle belt seals off the northwest where de Gaulle presumably has his empire, while the northeast appears to form a small peninsula, judging by the bleeding of coastal tiles through the fog.

Can't see very well but did you say that there's jungle directly on the pigs?
Yeah, bad dice there. :(
The X site north of the dye next. Farm the dye tile, work the grass hill, and if you get the chance, work the flat cottage for your capitol, but that will not likely happen. Farm the other grassland title and whip often.
That's precisely what I'm planning for that city. ;) I think I have overvalued this site, though -- I've noticed the gold city on the eastern coast but didn't consider it quite as worthwhile; it pays for itself by working the gold mine, but it takes 25 turns to return the investment in :hammers:. With all my cities low on food, however, that may be as good as it gets.

As for tech, it's a bit awkward. Do you have Mansa?
I picked Random for all of the leaders/civs including my own, so the chance of him being in the game is roughly 5%, but unless the last AI lives in isolation, he won't be located on the same continent as I am. The next-best option among the leaders I've met should be Huayna because he techs fast (FIN, and he loves his cottages) and has a monopoly breaker of 30% of known AI civs; seeing as he knows three of them at present, he'll only withhold techs that nobody else has reached yet. Joao has the next-best attitude at 40%, whereas Bismarck at 70% (and WFYABTA at 8 techs on Emperor) might as well be Tokugawa. :rolleyes:

Huayna's penchant for aggression makes it somewhat risky to trade him techs, though, and he claims WFYABTA at the same lousy threshold as Bismarck does.

Alpha is awkward as you self teched everything but sailing and pottery already.
I'd like to have avoided this, but I believe there was no way around researching Agri / Wheel / BW / AH on this start. Maybe I could trade Alphabet to Huayna for Iron Working, which the AI often prioritizes, but I think the AI hesitates to trade around IW because it unlocks a military unit and a strategic resource.

I'll go for the Maths bulb towards Construction, as you suggested. I'll probably have to self-tech Masonry and HBR as well, but elepulting Bismarck out of the game should make up for the cost.

As for blunderwonder, thank you for the detailed post -- I'll try to take this advice to heart as I proceed. I don't think it contains anything I could reply to right now, because I either agree about what you say or I lack the experience to judge it at all; but I believe that often it is studious silence that best expresses one's appreciation. :lol:
 
@ Krugi, from opener to t40 :

Spoiler :
Your opening was rather well played. It's coherent.
I haven't read the whole thread :)blush:) but looked attentively at your screenshots.

However, I think there are a few things that could be tweaked for improvement.

Animal Husbandry revealed horses south of the cows
From this point (turn 12), you know Berlin can work 4 strong tiles with Hunting + Animal Husbandry.
Therefore, you should think about growing Berlin to size 4 before starting on a settler.

Here, the settler at size 3 nets you an earlier city 2 but delays cities 3 & 4.
Growing Berlin to size 4 takes 4 turns (so maybe you lose 3 turns on city 2) and nets you 2 extra warriors (useful for exploration).

Your decision was good, however, to grow to 4 once your first settler was done.

I would research The Wheel next, as there was no immediate need for Agriculture
[...]
(1) The plains gold / grassland hill pigs site cannot be passed up
I agree that the gold + pigs + horses site is the strongest location in sight. It also blocks a lot of land to settle extra cities.
Researching The Wheel is fine, in that it takes you closer to Pottery.
However, here, my decision was to research into Sailing after Animal Husbandry.

I intended to settle that spot as city 2 until I discovered the corn, closer, on PH.
You're right that this is the proper location for city 2.
So I switched to Agriculture to enable the corn city.

That said, researching Sailing remains a strong play (imho), here, in that it gives you unlimited trade routes that don't cost Worker turns. Once one can open borders, Sailing makes up for its cost.

So... there are valid alternatives, but I think that a farway grab city by a river should ring the Sailing bell.

(3) The one single food resource anywhere near me seems to be that dry corn near the peaks. A city planted on the nearby plains hill would [...] build settlers/workers more competently than the other sites [...] In this case, I'd have the problem of five turns spent idly waiting for the border pop before I could do anything with the site
Solution : that city starts on a worker.
That shouldn't prevent your first worker to farm the corn as soon as it can,
But it will avoid you spending 5 turns slow growing and working a grassland forest.
Tasking city 2 with the 2nd worker also has the advantage of freeing up Berlin so it can build more settlers.


I think those points are the bulk of what I noticed and wanted to mention :)
For comparison, see turn 40 result when going that route :
Spoiler :


Now I remember what the last point was.
Really, it's only a cute thing that has little effect.
When your worker is waiting for Hamburg to pop borders, so it can farm the corn,
You have time to farm a riverside grassland tile.
Well, better pick that tile outside of Berlin's BFC, if you're going to cottage Berlin subsequently.
 
Ive nothing to do today so i think im gonna play this out. I really want a religious victory though and since its emperor I think i can probably do it even without much practice.


/e

well i started the map then realized what settings were on so I decided against it :( I might try it later tho after i get my AP cheese fix
 
@BornInCantaloup:
Spoiler :
That's an impressive example of how growing onto all the strong tiles (i.e. those with at least 4 combined :food:/:hammers:) works out better in the long term when one can afford to delay the first settler.

Your move to research Sailing was interesting. I had thought that researching Fishing would have been a blunder because it unlocks absolutely nothing of immediate use, but I must have underestimated the value of Sailing even when considering a possible riverside landgrab. I would already have gained a coastal foreign trade route with Bismarck the instant that I had reached Writing, and could have added further routes by exploring Joao's territory and the southern coastline of the continent near Huayna's capital.

I'm also astonished that you skipped Bronze Working, mostly because I'm very hesitant to delay chops and whips for so long, but now that I've seen your play, I realize that it's viable when you can work four strong tiles at the capital and, in my case, even muster chariots against barbarian archers. You'll get to Writing ten turns before I can, which means a faster first Great Scientist, and you can research BW in the meantime so that you'll get more out of your chops with the imminent Maths bulb.

I had wanted to pick a tile outside of Berlin's fat cross for irrigation at Hamburg, it's just that I couldn't, unless I'm overlooking something. :lol: Had I farmed a grassland tile after Hamburg's borders popped, that would have been a waste of worker labor, as I could have worked an unimproved floodplain for the same effect.


Turns 40 - 50:
Spoiler :

Reconsidering how worthwhile the capital's tiles were, I decided against double-whipping the settler at Berlin. On T43, I swap Hamburg to working two unimproved floodplains, ignoring the dry corn, to speed up Pottery by a turn; the disadvantage only amounts to a few lost hammers of overflow, since the city is building a worker that will be slaved out. Plains copper (1/5/0 with a mine) shows up S-SE of Hamburg, an excellent tile that the worker at Hamburg proceeds to improve right away.

T45 sees Berlin completing the settler with 16 :hammers: of overflow plus production that turn, which I shall put into a barracks so as to double-whip it later, after constructing a granary, and direct the overflow into a Creative library for 52 :hammers:, meaning that a single chop would finish that important building at once. But before any of this takes place, I revolt to Slavery so as to whip the worker at Hamburg.

T46: I whip the worker at Hamburg. I work the now-improved plains copper for a turn for one extra combined :food:/:hammers: compared to the dry corn. Berlin invests sixteen hammers into a barracks as described above.

T47: Founded Munich on the desert hill west of Berlin. Worker #3 starts to farm the floodplains; he could be assisted by a worker coming out of Berlin in four turns. The workers at Hamburg move onto the tile SE of the city and jointly road it; they will farm the floodplain NE of it next, then move into forests separately to chop out... something; most likely a granary. I'll have to work out the best way to build that thing.

I also notice that I would still have six forests left at Hamburg; producing another worker at Berlin could allow me to chop out the Pyramids there, since I have access to stone. :mischief: Unfortunately, if I were to research Masonry next, I would be delaying the library further; if I delayed Masonry, at least three Industrial leaders on the map could spoil my attempt, although stone-accelerated failure-gold would unquestionably help my economy as well. In addition, chopping so many forests shortly before a Maths bulb seems rather incoherent.

T50: I lose a scouting warrior in the south at 22.5% odds, a bit unlucky, but nothing to complain about, especially since my chariot won a rather risky battle (73.5% in my favor) against an archer threatening the settling of Munich. The warrior's replacement will come out of production at Hamburg soon enough, anyway. Other warriors are scouting the northern jungle and preventing the northeastern peninsula from spawning barbarians.



Demographics show that I'm (almost) tied for second place both in manufactured goods and food; the GNP slightly surpasses everyone else's at 100% science and looks below-average at 0%. To sum up the info from other screens, Bismarck seems to be working some high-food tile sporadically; nobody appears to have connected any high-commerce tiles yet; and I'm probably playing as the sole Creative leader, since the top three cities are Huayna's capital (assisted by his religion), Berlin, and Bismarck's capital (lacking a religion) in that order. The AI sometimes irrationally builds a monument in the capital, but that's the only case I can think of that might skew the numbers here.
 

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I went ahead and played this till ~1AD. Unfortunately because of time constraints i couldnt finish the game :(

Spoiler :

Mostly after I saw the horses in the BFC and how close the neighboors were i went for a HA rush. It was pretty slow, 3 cities ~925BC i had a stack of 6 or 7. It was rough because every other civ started with metal in their capitals. But ended up getting rid of the 3 closest civs and getting a bunch of techs for peace treaties in the process. I also managed to get out a pretty early GS since it was pretty clear I was winning. I went for a beauro cap 3 spaces east of your capital. Was fun, i called it quits though, and i dont think a HA rush would have worked for me at Imm, there was just too many metal units too quickly.

I think i went AH->TW(for barb defense)->AG->HBR->BW then pottery an writing shortly after.

in retrospect i should have gone after khymer first though, i got to him second, but he had oracle/colosses/TGW all in his capital so he was woefully undefended.

Also, on deity, i think washington would get a TON of land the way this is layed out


 
@ Krugi, some random thoughts about game balance, comparison at 2000 BC, working tiles and early game playstyles :
(all of this ? maybe not)
Spoiler :
Yes, in a general manner, it's better to grow first and then stagnate, rather than the opposite.
From size 3, it would take 4 turns to grow to size 4. This is where the delay on the 1st settler comes from. Here, two turns were gained on city 2.
However, stagnating at size 3 delays the 4th tile by as many turns as the stagnation lasts (settler build). Say the settler takes 8 turns to complete, stagnating @ size 3 loses 16 hammers and 24 commerce (ivory tile). This explains why growing to size 4 produces the settler for city 3 earlier.

The decision to stagnate or grow should rely on:
- the city's food output: the better the food output, the more incentive there is to grow first;
- the tiles the city will grow onto: growing onto a forest tile isn't worth it.

In general, the early game is all about what tiles you want to work and how to work them as soon as possible.
In this light, settlers help grab tiles over the map (horizontal) and workers help develop tiles you already control, which often requires city growth (vertical).

Your opening was coherent but it is notable that, at 2000 BC, you have 3 workers for 3 cities.
--> Your horizontal expansion has been sacrificed a bit;
--> Your workforce can propel yourself up for vertical expansion.

Vertical expansion: apart from improving special resources, one should mostly be looking at farming (ensures healthy food surplus), cottaging (raises the commerce output) and chopping (hastens production).

From the point you're at and now that you've got a healthy workforce, maybe you should think about being more aggressive about your horizontal expansion.
I suspect there are still many city sites you can claim for yourself and that you can support (given your tech + workers)

Note: your thinking about not whipping the settler in Berlin was good thinking. Losing the yield from 2 population points would cost more than the earlier settler would give.
Given the workforce you have, if you want to quicken production, I think you should rather try to chop.


@ Sailing:
Researching Sailing right after Animal Husbandry is an unorthodox move.
The maps are rare that make it highly beneficial.
The gain from it can be measured in several ways.
There are the trade routes, sure. Then there are the worker turns (look at all the roads you built; at 2000 BC they account for 16 worker turns).
And then there are the saved hammers on workers. This is crucial, imo. By not building workers, one can build settlers instead.
Not building your 2nd and 3rd workers results, automatically, in an extra settler.

Here's my 2000 BC pic:
Spoiler :



You can see how the balance between our two games is drastically different.
To compare with your 3 cities + 3 workers, I've just produced my 2nd worker but have already established 4 cities and have a new settler just out.
So your focus on workers gave you a headstart towards tile improvements (and vertical growth). You have plenty of improvements and I have only a few specials improved.
On the other hand, my focus on settlers gave me a headstart towards horizontal expansion: claiming new tiles and having more cities to produce workers from. (My second worker is on the gold tile by Munich.)

All in all, you should be able to research better for some time but that is at the cost of production.
The production from more earlier cities will catch up, at some point, including in the commerce output.
See? This is all about trade offs and different balances.

Here (my game), research should be directed towards Alphabet, so as to backfill The Wheel, Pottery, Bronze Working, maybe Mysticism and hopefully trade for Iron Working.
With such city count, researching Currency will then become a priority.

Note: the abundance of gold tiles influenced my decision to go so heavy on settlers and so light on early techs.
This isn't something to do on every map.
Given that abundance, Berlin doesn't need to build a Library just right now (with science slider @ 0%) but will intead keep on with its settler duty.

:)


Small note about your play (t40-50) :
I think it was a slight mistake to overflow hammers into Berlin's Barracks and then switch to a worker.
Overflowing into the Worker would have saved you some turns on the build (2 turns ?).
 
Just food for thought, situation of the game @ 1000 BC.
Mild exploration spoilers, don't click if you don't want to.

Goes to show how early advantages develop (the ever mentioned snowball effect) :

Spoiler :


Now 5 workers out. 3 libraries up.
 
T50 - 75:
Spoiler :

Inspired by BornInCantaloup's strong and audacious expansion, I decided to try and match it :hammer: -- with slightly questionable success. :lol:

Berlin continued to produce workers/settlers without pause, except for a three-turn intermezzo of growth to size 5, during which I also managed to build a library with overflow from a settler. I used single chops on each of the settlers. Total output so far: two workers, two settlers, a library, and a third settler near completion.

Hamburg would also build a settler, and on the last turn of production, I could chop two forests so as to steer huge overflow into a library. The city has been running two scientists at size 3 since T66, and will consequently produce a Great Scientist on T83. That's a bit on the slow side, so I'm wondering if I should bulb Maths, as I had planned on ikotomi's advice, or rather build the Academy at Berlin (or possibly Munich? stronger in the short term, but no Bureaucracy bonus later). Of course, if I bulb maths, elepults are only two techs away... :mischief:

The settler coming out of Hamburg then settled the Frankfurt site, which could immediately make use of the now-orphaned tile improvements around Hamburg like this: grow to size 2 (2/24 :food:) working a floodplains farm while building a granary, then grow to 12/24 on the farm and a floodplains cottage, swap to copper/grass mine for a turn to push the single-chopped granary over the 30/60 threshold, and whip with the food box half full to regrow almost immediately on the pigs.

Berlin's settlers founded Cologne and Essen. Cologne does its own thing working decent tiles before the promised advent of Iron Working for double gems (soon... soon!), while Essen currently has one job, which should be immediately obvious from the screenshot. ;) No need for a granary right now, not before I can work the fish. No need for units in this area, either; barbarians can't spawn, other civs aren't around, and we can grow to size ~4 without a garrison before unhappiness turns into a problem. Gems will push the cap even higher.

There's a barb city in the northern jungle. Nothing to do about that right now. The foreseeable trickling-in of barb archers will make it more difficult for me to settle the Stuttgart site from BornInCantaloup's game, unfortunately. I've also lost the double desert gold to Joao/Huayna.

On the bright side, I'm three turns away from Alphabet at almost the same beakers-per-turn rate, and two cottages (one at Munich, one at Cologne) will grow in two turns, with another one at Berlin following soon thereafter. Six workers are busy developing the land; I want to pre-chop some forests at Hamburg and initiate Berlin's transition into a city emphasizing commerce.



The demographics don't show anything too exciting. First in food, land area, and GNP; middle-of-the-pack in MFG, although the deviance from the mean is quite low. The one worrisome, although very much expected ranking is being dead last in soldiers; I'm not a land target for any AI yet, though, and the barbs have been keeping quiet so far (I only have a single 7XP chariot for defense). I still want to stock up on units sooner rather than later.

I think BornInCantaloup's vertical growth will shortly take off and overtake mine, though. Most notably, I'm nowhere near Currency, and I have the same number of libraries at this point.


BiC, I may reply to your post more directly later -- right now I'd rather make dinner :D -- but I'll already say that I find your style impressive; the AH -> Sailing tech path combined with your dedicated push towards all those coastal/riverside gold cities is precisely the kind of skillful, flexible play that I'm hoping to see and learn from. I tend to neglect my horizontal growth, so I need to see how much more can be possible there.

Besides, the overflow into the barracks has indeed proven unnecessary -- maybe I can make use of it for a whipping chain later if it hasn't decayed by then, but that's probably not worth delaying a worker by ~2 turns.
 

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  • Krugi BC-1000.CivBeyondSwordSave
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You do have to be careful with growing to quickly though, on maps where you can get easy fogbusting and rex really hard, its easy to spam cities too fast, only to find your struggling to get alpha/currency, and then you have no trade bait. You do eventually catch up but it can take time. and especially on big maps, once you hit 6 cities, and theyre more than 5 squares away, the maintance can become a very big problem.
 
@ Krugi:

Spoiler :
Good going!

First thing I'd like to point out has to do with the early game trade offs.

On turn 75, you're only seemingly behind in techs.
We have researched about as many beakers as each other. If I have a headstart on Currency, it is solely because I got better value off the Alpha trade (backfilling).
Besides, you can actually research faster than I can, for several reasons:
- I took more and earlier maintenance hits than you did (settling cities), so I bleed more gold than you do;
- My Empire is more widespread than yours, which means I lost many worker turns moving my workers over to new settlements;
- You got a healthy early workforce combined with Pottery, which has allowed you to start cottaging.

On my end, I have more resource specials, especially gold tiles.
But your 6 workers + compact and already well developped Empire means you'll be able to cottage faster than I could.
So, imho, for the turns to come, your commerce output should rise faster than mine.

Of course, a larger Empire has better long-term potential... but this can be made up for with a timely invasion.
If you can invade a neighbour before reaching a plateau (you should be able to), then your long term potential will rise again.

Those are dynamics at work.
It's rare that there's a single best line of play. However, there are means to optimize a line of play.


So, to finish with this point,
I took your save and quick played to Currency. I reached it 2 turns later than with my save. But I was then doing about 30:science:/turn more with your save. Not even considering my extra maintenance.
With proper management, you might be able to reach Civil Service before I could.

So don't be jealous and assess the strong points of your game: the superior workforce to develop the land.


With this said, we can look at some shortcomings.

First, I'd like to draw your attention (again) to the number of roads you've built.
Some of those roads are useful, some others aren't very much.
I count 18 roaded tiles, which equals to 36 worker turns.
36 worker turns can be converted into any combination of 9 chopped forests and grassland cottages.
If you look at your map and add, say, 5 cottages and remove 4 forests for chops, maybe you can get an idea of the cost of roading so much.

To work those cottages, you'd need more population points but it's conceivable you could have them. Chopping forests saves time on stagnation (while building workers/settlers) and allows a faster growth.

Which leads me to another point of your game.
You've been stagnating Hamburg at size 3, working corn and hiring 2 scientists.
I can understand how appealing the faster Academy (or bulb) can be, but I think this is a case of mismanagement.
Hamburg has a Granary, a happy cap at 6 and many unworked food positive tiles (!).
Say we assign Hamburg corn, farmed floodplains, cottaged floodplains.
The city can then grow 3 sizes, up to size 6, in a mere 5 turns (!).
As it happens, you also have a considerable workforce in position to cottage the land.
So, at size 6, Hamburg could work Corn, cottaged floodplains, cottaged grassland x2 and 2x scientists (freeing up the farmed floodplains for Frankfurt).
Going such a route seems much stronger to me.
Sure, it delays your Great Scientist, but it makes the most of your already improved tiles, infrastructure and happy cap.


So, for the following turns of your game,
I think you should focus on your workforce (it seems to me it's a bit out of position, as if you got disconcerted by how many workers you had).
What I'd be most attentive to are meaningful improvements. I think you can go full on cottages and chops (mostly cottages).
It's important to improve tiles you can work in the short term. And when you do, it's important to focus on growth.
Re: chops: there's no need to pre-chop if you're not going to need the hammers sometime soon. Are you chopping something in Hamburg?

Another key objective for your workers, for the turns to come, is to connect your trade network to a neighbour. You can make good use of foreign trade routes (those are roads that pay for themselves).
Arguably, this should already be done.


Otherwise, you mentioned the barb city. You can aim to capture it.
I think there's room for two more cities (maybe more?), so you may look up for a place to start another settler (Munich? Hamburg?).
Cologne has very little food surplus, maybe that riverside grassland is better off farmed. It seems to me that having the pop to work the gems is more important than the extra cottage.
Once you get Alphabet, I'd rather set research to Currency than Construction. Your economy could slow down a lot if you went for Construction and it isn't like you need War Elephants to capture cities (Swords and Macemen are options).
You can build Research if you want to to speed up Currency. It may be better than Chariots but not necessarily better than Axemen (to capture the barb city).
You killed a fish tile when you settled Essen. Slight misplay, there. Settling 1N would have been better.

:)


ps :
The settler coming out of Hamburg then settled the Frankfurt site, which could immediately make use of the now-orphaned tile improvements around Hamburg like this: grow to size 2 (2/24 ) working a floodplains farm while building a granary, then grow to 12/24 on the farm and a floodplains cottage, swap to copper/grass mine for a turn to push the single-chopped granary over the 30/60 threshold, and whip with the food box half full to regrow almost immediately on the pigs.
This is a pretty good play. Combining a 1pop whip at size 2 with a chop to get a fast granary is very efficient.
Especially when there's a strong food special at hand (granary = double food output).
If you want to do it perfect, however, you should aim for a food bin of 11/22 after the whip. (more or less, slight difference, no need to forego working strong tiles to get exactly there.)
So, maybe you should have started working the copper a turn earlier.
Whipping with 5-8 food in the bin and doing +5F for the turn would be very good.
 
Turn 109, Bureaucracy :
Spoiler :
Just revolted out of Anarchy. Adopted Bureaucracy + Hereditary Rule.
Pretty sure you can be more advanced than that, at this point. This is a rather late Civil Service (I hoped to reach it around t100 ; it didn't help to have to self-research Mathematics ; didn't help either to give in to a demand from de Gaulle for 70gold).

Spoiler :


Now up to 13 frigging cities and a settler is on its way.
An army has been whipped to capture the barb city.
Worker count has caught up with the city count. Got 11.
Now on to research Calendar.
Hanging Gardens complete at end of turn.


I also have a t100 stop, if you prefer.
 

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You do have to be careful with growing to quickly though, on maps where you can get easy fogbusting and rex really hard, its easy to spam cities too fast, only to find your struggling to get alpha/currency, and then you have no trade bait. You do eventually catch up but it can take time. and especially on big maps, once you hit 6 cities, and theyre more than 5 squares away, the maintance can become a very big problem.

Imho, failing to get Alpha/Currency only applies if your timings are off.
When expanding, one always needs a combination of techs, tiles and workforce to make up for the maintenance hits.
With proper timings and management, one can peacefully expand indefinitely. Expansion can be agressive and controlled at the same time.

However, the maintenance hits are real.
So, what one experiences when settling extra cities is a tempo loss.
This may be relevant if one is racing for a tech target. A loss of tempo would delay the tech target... provided that target is close enough.
Given enough time, cities pay off. So a more faraway target may get closer by settling extra cities, despite the maintenance hits.

Therefore, if one isn't rushing for something, then the maintenance hits may not matter.
Increasing the city count is crucial to any exponential strategy ; it's actually a prerequisite to go exponential. One can do more and more with more and more cities.
If going for a threshold/milestone strategy, then the extra settlings may backfire, provided they can't pay off before reaching said threshold.
This latter point is a matter of timelines.

:)


EDIT :
1 AD, gg, I don't think I'll take this game any further, although it's been a good ride.
End pictures :
Spoiler :






 
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