Culture groups MEAN something

Kiech

King
Joined
Oct 1, 2002
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Allow certain culture groups to research techs for their specific culture group. IE, the Mayans can learn all about sacrificing, but the Bab's cannot.

This will help us build scenarios, and add some flavor to epic games without using all of the silly 'tricks' used by scenario makers now. Allow an option on whether those techs can be stolen or not.

Different pictures for the same building would be great as well. The Japaneese temples shouldn't look like the English ones.

And of course, give us the option to play with this as much as we want to in the editor! :goodjob:
 
The Japanese temples do not look like as the English temples...
Yes, it's a very common idea, but it would make the game more complicated...
Mezoamerica had only one own age, it was Europan for the other 3... etc
 
This sounds like you are asking for the Flavors that are built into C3C. Nearly everthing you said was put into the game already.
 
Flavors are the 'tricks' I was describing above.

I want the American civs to build me a ball court, while the Mediteranian civs build burial mounds.

All a part of the editor, of course.
 
It would be good to see different culture groups having different named buildings.

Perhaps in every age there could also be a tech researchable only by the specific culture group you are part of etc. Anyone think of some good examplea?
 
Why not try the Middle Ages Conquest for some ideas as it does all of these things ;)
 
Aside from flavours, I definitely feel that culture groups should effect an AI civs choice of both government and religion type-as well as determine how well your people accept your own religion and government choices (of course, culture group, civ characteristics and the civilization itself should all play a role in this!)
In addition, these factors-combined with government and religion choices- should also effect how civs recieve each other in diplomatic terms.

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
I'm not sure I really like this idea.

There are three types of differences between the various civs: cosmetic differences, AI differences, and actual functional differences. Cosmetic differences include different civ name, color, leaderhead, city names, great leader names, and the graphics for certain buildings. AI differences include things that only affect the AI's playing of a specific civ (like how agressive they are). In Civ 1 and Civ 2, cosmetic and AI differences were the only differences between civs. Civ 3 introduced some functional differences: unique units and civ traits.

While I admit that I do like the UUs and traits, and think they add a nice touch to the game, I also believe they opened up a dangerous can of worms, and I don't think the idea should be taken too much further. The advantage of functional differences between civs is that it makes playing one civ different from playing another, so that there can be more variety from one game to the next. The disadvantage is that they constrain you by encouraging you to play in certain ways with certain civs. For me, some of the fun of civ has always been that when I play a civ, I can make their history turn out very different from their actual, real-life history. But the more "unique" each civ is (i.e., the greater the functional differences between each civ) then the more each civ will be pressured to follow the same path of development in each game. In other words, I don't mind some minor differences between civs, because it makes it more interesting to try a new civ after you've had experience playing someone else, but I don't want to see major differences between civs, because then I'll have to pick a different civ if I want my game to turn out significantly differently. I think the characteristics of each civ should always have a smaller influence on the course of the game than other factors such as geography, resources, strategy, etc.

Having said all that, I'm not sure exactly how significant the differences Kiech is proposing are. It sounds like the proposal is for actual functional differences, not just cosmetics. Its hard to tell... the English and Japanese temples already look different (a purely cosmetic difference, to be sure). Ball courts vs. burial mounds - would these do the same thing, and just have different names/graphics (in which case the difference is cosmetic) or would they actually do different things, resulting in functional differences between civs? The suggestion that certain civs can research certain techs that others can't is certainly a suggestion for functional differences, but then I can't tell whether the proposal is that these differences be in the default game, or just the editor. Doesn't Conquests already have this sort of thing in the editor?

If the functional differences between different culture groups are minor, then I'm all for this idea, but I don't like the sound of differences in available techs (not for the default epic game, anyway... mods and scenarios are a different story). If the techs available are different, that strikes me as forcing certain civs to always be played the same way. You'd have to always follow the tech progression dictated by the rules; you wouldn't be free to pursue techs that your particular civ never pursued in real life. Civs shouldn't be forced to be too similar to their historical counterparts... Civilization is a game of alternate history.

One last thing to consider is playtesting. Currently there are 31 civs, and 7 different traits. That means the designers of Civ3/Conquests had to balance 31 different UUs and 28 different two-trait combos in order to make sure that no civ was inherently better or worse than the others (or at least, not noticeably so). Every further functional difference between civs complicates playtesting further by making it even harder to achieve balance between all the civs. If you let American civs like the Mayans and Incas research sacrificing, but the Meditteranean civs cannot, then not only do you need to make sure that sacrificing itself isn't unbalancing (i.e., that the Meditteranean civs have something else just as good) but also that it isn't unbalancing in combination with the other differences. What I mean is, perhaps sacrificing wouldn't be particularly great in general, but would be super-useful if you also happened to play an expansionist civ, or if you had a UU that could enslave, or something like that. Each time you introduce a single set of new differences between civs, you dramatically increase the number of possible permutations and combinations of differences, running the risk that some particular combo will be unbalancingly strong or weak. Only careful playtesting can uncover these imbalances, and there's only a finite amount of playtesting that can get done before a game is released.
 
I totally agree. Furthermore I think that the tendency to overspecify civs reflects different player gaming background.
Some players come from(and return to)games as chess or go and there is also the younger generation that wants more personal charachteristics as in most computer games of the past 10 years...
 
if differences shouldn't unbalance the game (i agree) then they will have little effect, so what are they for?

rewriting history is a kind of motto of civ so let's follow it by abandoning history related features that force the civ to behave like in their history and keep realistic options open for all:

- each civ has the same possibilities

- no one and no civ can afford to develop to the max in all branches, nor can you teach a Knight to fight like a samurai by giving him some scrolls. Also the most nations don't want to talk about their top-secret scientific or industrial projects, as long as they are very useful and one step ahead

- make a common tech tree in which techs of newer ages are clearly superior to older ones. Everyone should be able to research side branches with dead ends to improve different abilities of units, city improvements, government and so on.
These techs shouldn't be necessary for advancing the main tech tree. They should have effects that become obsolete at some point and shouldn’t be tradable!
So don't stay too long in a backward age researching side branches, take only what you actually need to prosper or outplay your opponents.
This way everyone can develop in each game a new strategy or make an old one better and at the same time react on the environmental conditions.
Figure that: you choose an expansionist and militaristic civ and find yourself alone on a small island, or you choose the babylonians and find yourself between romans, persians and iroquois AND it's a multiplayer game! That's why i hate predefined civ abilities.

- another way to make fair, different civ abilities during the game is to have only small wonders, none of them replacing any city improvement, all becoming obsolete at some point, but giving you an edge ability on an specific period of time

- now most of you will get upset: What are these techs an wonders for then, i'll ignore them an concentrate on the main stream development!!!

- as a reward for your efforts and as a possibility to give your civ during the game a certain characteristic, these tech branches and small wonders should be classified in categories like military, government, education, commerce, science, religion, agriculture, industry, etc.. Your nation should get a bonus (less ressources needed) for future efforts of the same kind. So that others will really fear your Knights bristling with weapons or the increased cultural influence of your temples or priests. Then you will be able to decide if you want to research and build an stronger Armor, better Universities, have the happiest people or increase the economic influence of your stock exchange.
But only if you concentrate during the whole game on maximum three fields you will be one of the best at it at the end of the game. No one is perfect.
 
All of the ideas I'm putting forward for culture groups, just for the record, are more about 'Tendancies' than outright behaviour.
So that is why I like the idea of flavours so much-because you can 'nudge' an AI civ in a certain tech/improvement direction, without 'bludgeoning them to death' in the process ;)! i.e. the nudge doesn't prevent that civ from going in a different direction to the one suggested by cultural flavour!
I guess my big issue is that by the industrial/modern age, I want to see greater diversity between civs-especially in the areas of government/religion choices and, to a lesser degree, even the wonders, improvements and units they build. I definitely want to end the whole 'Republic/Monarchy', 'Democracy/communism' duopolies that we currently see in civ3!

Yours,
Aussie_Lurker.
 
civ2 was a little bit influenced by an idea like culture groups
i liked that

i think to have seen in the editor the possibility to specify a certain gov as preferred and sth like Key-Techs for each civ so that it would consider them more valuable than other techs.
 
Aussie_Lurker said:
I definitely want to end the whole 'Republic/Monarchy', 'Democracy/communism' duopolies that we currently see in civ3!

I agree, there should be more choices with pros and cons so that your choice isn't obvious, but will take some consideration. (And maybe even have the pros and cons be influenced to a small degree by which cultural group you are from).
 
I don't know how popular this idea is, but i would love the ability to switch flavors off. I want a temple to look in the same way watever year and whatever civ I am playing.

I like functional differences (i.e. some civs can do certain things other can't; unique units...), but cosmetic differences should be optional
 
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