Lozzy_Ozzy
Rapture
I've got civ2 ToT but Mge sounds better, should i get it and where from? 
Wich is the best civ2 version?
- Thread starter Lozzy_Ozzy
- Start date
MGE may be difficult to find.
If you can't and you want to play MGE scens using ToT, you can use Civconverter or 'downgrade' ToT to MGE using Cedric Green's patch.
As to your question, ToT is better. It's WAY better when it comes to scenario design--if a little less easy to work with. It's just that not many people have it so most people work with MGE or FW.
If you can't and you want to play MGE scens using ToT, you can use Civconverter or 'downgrade' ToT to MGE using Cedric Green's patch.
As to your question, ToT is better. It's WAY better when it comes to scenario design--if a little less easy to work with. It's just that not many people have it so most people work with MGE or FW.
Lozzy_Ozzy
Rapture
Thanks! I'll keep with ToT for now then! Oh and have you looked at my a-team scenario thread yet?
Lozzy_Ozzy said:I've got civ2 ToT but Mge sounds better,
ToT is a vast improvement over MGE in most respects other than the horrendous graphics used for the former. You can replace these easily enough and I suggest you have a look at Catfish's site here http://users.tpg.com.au/jpwbeest/
The Person
Deity +2
ToT is better than MGE, but as already mentioned over and over again, the graphics are bad. Too little contrast.
Seeing as how eveyone hates ToT's graphics (could that be the reason for many players not getting it?), has anyone ever thought of creating new unit sprites for it (i.e. nicer graphics)?
The only thing that MGE has that ToT doesn't is the combat graphics (i.e. the little explosions that appear during combat in MGE). ToT doesn't use these because it's designed to be animated, hence there is no need for the explosions. This was a mistake because most ToT scens don't use unit sprites, so what you get is static combat with now explosions (the only way you know that combat is taking place is by watching the health bars of the combatants--you may not even notice if zoomed out).
The other thing is the Council feature that ToT lacks but not many players use that anyway (certainly not for scens).
The problem with converting MGE scens to ToT format is that there are some graphics distortions (like units being placed too high in the slot in ToT--note that ToT unit slots are bigger than MGE slots in terms of height).
If you can't find ToT you can always use Cedric's 'updates' to upgrade your MGE to ToT (or rather create second MGE directory and upgrade that one to ToT so you have both). Note that this only upgrades the exec and some other basic files (it may not even include sprites,), so you will not get any of the mods that ships with ToT--AFAIK since I have ToT I've never tried Cedric's ToT upgrade).
I've said it before but I'll say it again: from the regular player's point of view (just plays the vanilla game), ToT doesn't offer much that's new aside from the animated units and resources. From the MODDER'S point of view, ToT is God's gift to civers (well, maybe it's not that good but I'm trying to make a point): more techs, more units, more event triggers, actions, modifiers, new flags, more events heap, advanced rules, and...you get to play on MULTIPLE MAPS (max. 4) in the same game--you don't even get that in Civ3!
The downside to sprites is that you can't set the number of frames in a unit animation (i.e. you're stuck with the number that the original unit animation uses). If this could be overcome, I think more ToT modders would use sprites.
Note: in ToT, you can also just use the static unit sprite file instead of the fully animated unit sprites (i.e. unit only faces in the diriection it moves but there is no animation)...for those of you who just can't stand seeing the unit always facing in the same direction (although in ToT, the unit image is mirrored when travelling left; i.e. even if using the regular MGE images, they will flip when traveling in the opposite direction so at least you don't have units attacking westward but facing eastward or vicerversa).
You can use Mercator's CivSprite program to export the ToT sprite animation frames into seperate bitmap files and then use some graphics editing program--yes, even MS Paint--to alter the each bitmap or frame and then import it back thus overriting the sprite file. I've tried this and it works well, considering the limitations but takes for bloody ever since there are usually 100+ frames per unit...then again, Civ3 designers do this for ALL scens since there is not single image option as in ToT, so it's not that bad (granted the Civ3 guys way have more utilities for unit design than ToT).
That reminds me: I want to be able to view the unit animation without having to import the new sprite, load ToT and be moving the unit around just to see how the animation plays out. Anybody know of any programs that would let me do this? For that matter, anyone know of a program that would let be view multiple frames at the same time (overlapping them)? I have yet to do any real work using ToT sprite because I just don't have the time to go thorough all the processes for each unit sprite.
The only thing that MGE has that ToT doesn't is the combat graphics (i.e. the little explosions that appear during combat in MGE). ToT doesn't use these because it's designed to be animated, hence there is no need for the explosions. This was a mistake because most ToT scens don't use unit sprites, so what you get is static combat with now explosions (the only way you know that combat is taking place is by watching the health bars of the combatants--you may not even notice if zoomed out).
The other thing is the Council feature that ToT lacks but not many players use that anyway (certainly not for scens).
The problem with converting MGE scens to ToT format is that there are some graphics distortions (like units being placed too high in the slot in ToT--note that ToT unit slots are bigger than MGE slots in terms of height).
If you can't find ToT you can always use Cedric's 'updates' to upgrade your MGE to ToT (or rather create second MGE directory and upgrade that one to ToT so you have both). Note that this only upgrades the exec and some other basic files (it may not even include sprites,), so you will not get any of the mods that ships with ToT--AFAIK since I have ToT I've never tried Cedric's ToT upgrade).
I've said it before but I'll say it again: from the regular player's point of view (just plays the vanilla game), ToT doesn't offer much that's new aside from the animated units and resources. From the MODDER'S point of view, ToT is God's gift to civers (well, maybe it's not that good but I'm trying to make a point): more techs, more units, more event triggers, actions, modifiers, new flags, more events heap, advanced rules, and...you get to play on MULTIPLE MAPS (max. 4) in the same game--you don't even get that in Civ3!
The downside to sprites is that you can't set the number of frames in a unit animation (i.e. you're stuck with the number that the original unit animation uses). If this could be overcome, I think more ToT modders would use sprites.
Note: in ToT, you can also just use the static unit sprite file instead of the fully animated unit sprites (i.e. unit only faces in the diriection it moves but there is no animation)...for those of you who just can't stand seeing the unit always facing in the same direction (although in ToT, the unit image is mirrored when travelling left; i.e. even if using the regular MGE images, they will flip when traveling in the opposite direction so at least you don't have units attacking westward but facing eastward or vicerversa).
You can use Mercator's CivSprite program to export the ToT sprite animation frames into seperate bitmap files and then use some graphics editing program--yes, even MS Paint--to alter the each bitmap or frame and then import it back thus overriting the sprite file. I've tried this and it works well, considering the limitations but takes for bloody ever since there are usually 100+ frames per unit...then again, Civ3 designers do this for ALL scens since there is not single image option as in ToT, so it's not that bad (granted the Civ3 guys way have more utilities for unit design than ToT).
That reminds me: I want to be able to view the unit animation without having to import the new sprite, load ToT and be moving the unit around just to see how the animation plays out. Anybody know of any programs that would let me do this? For that matter, anyone know of a program that would let be view multiple frames at the same time (overlapping them)? I have yet to do any real work using ToT sprite because I just don't have the time to go thorough all the processes for each unit sprite.
Catfish
Emperor
Turning on the sound helps.yoshi said:
There are a lot more issues than that. I ended up writing a checklist.yoshi said:
I thought this was the same for both MGE and ToT, ie, 100.yoshi said:
I believe this is more a limitation of CivSprite than the ToT sprite format. [jk] You could try hex-editing the sprite files. [/jk]yoshi said:
to he that creates a program that does though.
Catfish
Emperor
yoshi said:...
(For the record, I meant localizing combat.)
If you're really keen 
, you can export all of the frames from one of the animated units and replace them all with a new bitmap. Then when you've done that you can paste the old-style combat animation icons over the new unit's combat frames. Import the new frames. Repeat for all the units in your scenario. 
Catfish
Emperor
Maybe it's my gibbering.yoshi said:
You'd be replacing the original animations with a new set of non-animated (identical) unit icons. To simulate combat, you'd then paste those old explosion frames from icons.bmp onto the new unit's combat frames before importing them back into the sprite file. The idea is insane - please don't try it. Now I get it.
I was actually thinking of that at one point but the effort just didn't seem remotely worth it...plus my laziness stops short of not bothering to breath, so doing all that work for some stupid little explosions...hell, you might as well ask me to take a short walk across Siberia just for the view. Not to men...zzzzzzz...(slobber)...zzz...
(poke, poke) ..zzz...wha? (burp, fart)...oh. <yoshi wipes drool and continues rant> For those of you who are actually willing to do this, you might as well spend a little extra time making the unit image in the 5 directions (i.e. like the static units sprite) so that you at least have the unit facing the right way when those explosions are appearing--you know, to show for your effort.
I was actually thinking of that at one point but the effort just didn't seem remotely worth it...plus my laziness stops short of not bothering to breath, so doing all that work for some stupid little explosions...hell, you might as well ask me to take a short walk across Siberia just for the view. Not to men...zzzzzzz...(slobber)...zzz...
(poke, poke) ..zzz...wha? (burp, fart)...oh. <yoshi wipes drool and continues rant> For those of you who are actually willing to do this, you might as well spend a little extra time making the unit image in the 5 directions (i.e. like the static units sprite) so that you at least have the unit facing the right way when those explosions are appearing--you know, to show for your effort.
Catfish
Emperor
Exactly.yoshi said:
yoshi said:
yoshi said:
Well, you could probably use any image animation software for that, like Animation Shop (comes with Paint Shop Pro), but then you'd still have to build the animation yourself. Also, because of the fixed framerate of ToT sprites and the looping and frame reuse constructs, you'd probably have to view the animation in ToT first to see if the animation really matches with what you see in ToT.
The easiest to do, though, would probably be to create yourself a ToT savegame with all units placed on it, some distance apart. Or possibly even a scenario, to give all units infinite movement or whatever, to ease the testing process.
You can then simply reload that savegame everytime you want to check your new work. You can't simply reload the savegame with Ctrl+L or through the Game menu, though. You have to exit back to the main menu to get ToT to reload the sprite files.
Luckily, the ToT menus remember their last state, so after a while you'll get the hang of hitting the same key sequence to go back to the main menu and reload. I think Ctrl+Q Down Enter Enter Enter (provided the right menu options are selected already) Shift+Tab Down (you're in the file open dialog at this point, so the number of arrow keys you have to press depend on the name of your savegame) Enter does it...
I just did some extensive testing yesterday to find out some more about the sprite file format. I don't have any lack of ideas for a next version of CivSprite either, but I haven't gotten around to it yet (and I may never). It would be a rather ambitious project...
Yeah, I've tried the saved game way but I want to be able to skip the importing process (i.e. view the animation before importing--only import once the final version is done).
I think if you have a saved game in the main menu (not scenario) then you can just reload normally (of course, that means that you're experimenting in the main directory: I just backup the sprites).
If you could just find a way of changing the number of frames per sprite that alone would be a major accomplishment...and it would make me happy...which is a great accomplishment unto itself.
I think if you have a saved game in the main menu (not scenario) then you can just reload normally (of course, that means that you're experimenting in the main directory: I just backup the sprites).
If you could just find a way of changing the number of frames per sprite that alone would be a major accomplishment...and it would make me happy...which is a great accomplishment unto itself.
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