2nd Law of Thermodynamics Falsifies Evolution

Tyrus888

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The 2nd Law not only present a major scientific headache for those who wish to believe in evolution, it actually falsifies evolution. Too bad dogmatic evolutionists know so little science.

The problem evolutionists have is that they know the second law is a fact and they KNOW evolution is a fact, therefore the two must be compatible. This forces them to believe that order and specified complexity arises out of chaos, that nonsense generates sense, that information has arisen spontaneously within systems.

Why is the 2nd Law even true. Physicist have known why at least since the mid 1930's. Evolutionists sought of suppress this truth, or, at least do their best to see it is ignored, because it does great harm to their belief in Evolution. The 2nd Law is simply the result of a greater principle of Physics: "Massive amounts of Molecules, atoms, atomic particles, etc., tend over time to flow (i.e. rearrange themselves) from states (i.e. arrangements) of lower probability to states of ever increasing probability.

This principle not only makes the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics TRUE, it applies equally to Information Theory because conveyance of information is dependant on molecular arrangements. Application of the above principle to energy flow is often what is meant, in schools, by the 2nd Law. That is, the flow of molecular states in contact will flow from states of energy differential to the much more probable states of energy equilibrium. When energy equilibrium is reached, work can no longer be done. However, for states of configuration of molecules, the principle of molecular flow will also always proceed from states of lower probability to states of ever increasing probability.

This is because the 2nd Law is a consequence of the behavior of large collections of molecules which behave in accordance with the laws of probability. The molecules logically will flow over time from low probability states to higher probability states. If there were many more `orderly' states than `disorderly' states for that molecules can arrange themselves into, then the natural flow would be from states of disorder to states of order. If this were true and we also define "Orderly" as performing functions needed for the origin of life as well as the origin species, then Evolution could be possible.

For example, when a large vase falls and smashes onto a stone floor, it would produce little tea cups if the probability of the molecules arranging themselves into cups was much higher as compared to any other possible configurations. But the laws of physics being what they are, the vase breaks up into many pieces of varying sizes and shapes that will be meaningless in terms of performing a useful function for human beings. The molecules of the vase have "naturally" undergone a change in arrangement from a specified complexity that performed a function for humans to a more probable disordered chaotic functionless arrangement.

Evolutionists believe that inanimate matter must have, through natural processes only, spontaneously generated the first lifeform, and that over time, the offspring of this first lifeform must have undergone numerous mutations in such manner as to have spontaneously generated new information in the RNA/DNA that provided new classes of proteins and instructions needed to originate every type of bodily organ and lifeform that has ever existed on this planet. Leading evolutionists admit that each step necessary for the spontaneous generation of life must be such that the molecular flow must run from states of lower probability to molecular states of ever higher probability, otherwise there would be a violation of the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. This must also be true for the spontaneous generation of new classes of proteins and the injection of new coded information into the DNA, as would be necessary to bring about new evolved body plans (i.e. creature types).

Distinguished scientist and expert on origins, A.E. Wilder-Smith stated:
What is the difference between a stick, which is dead, and an orchid which is alive? The difference is that the orchid has teleonomy in it. It is a machine which is capturing energy to increase order. Where you have life, you have teleonomy.
Teleonomy is the information stored within a living thing. Teleonomy involves the concept of something having a design and a purpose. Teleonomy can use matter and energy to produce order and specified complexity. It is Creation's ordering principle. Evolutionists have failed to discern any such ordering principle for macro-evolution, a major and critical deficiency with evolution. As Dr. A.E, Wilder-Smith points out, this ordering principle does not reside in matter itself, matter is not creative.
The pure chemistry of a cell is not enough to explain the workings of a cell, although the workings are chemical. The chemical workings of a cell are controlled by information which does not reside in the atoms or the molecules
Indeed, in their efforts to demonstrate scientifically that Evolution, and its necessary parent: "The Spontaneous Generation of Life", both result from a reasonable flow of molecules from states of lower probability to states of ever increasing probability, they have produced scientific results that demonstrate the opposite.

As for evolution itself, the Theory of Evolution demands that since the very earliest life, new classes of proteins must have come into existence and new instructions must be continually encoded into DNA to produce novel physical features, organs, traits that we know have come to exist.

World renown information expert Hubert Yockey, in 1978, did theoretical calculations to determine the information content of cytochrome C while allowing for ambiguity. Mr. Yockey based his calculations on phylogenetic sequence comparisons. His calculations revealed that an undirected search arriving at this protein has a probability of occurrence of 1 in 10^65.

Such a probability is certainly very damaging to any possibility of macro-evolution being at all plausible. To counter this, a scientist with excellent mathematical skills, Mr. Ken Dill, using different assumptions than Yockey, arrived at a 1 in 10^15 probability of finding via an undirected search a protein molecule the size of cytochrome C, which under other reasonable assumptions may occur as frequently as once every 32 years.

Yockey's analysis had more support from studies on varying amino acids in cytochrome C, but this was inconclusive and Dill's analysis may be correct. Hard experimental data was needed to resolve this issue and a team of scientists from MIT, Sauer et. al., provided the solid empirical data which turned out to confirm Yockey's analysis.

Robert T. Sauer and his M.I.T. team of biologists undertook the scientific research of substituting the 20 different types amino acids in two different proteins. upon each substitution, the protein sequence was reinserted into bacteria to be tested for function. They discovered that in some locations of the protein's amino acid chains, up to 15 different amino acids may be substituted while at other locations their was a tolerance of only a few, and yet other locations could not tolerate even one substitution of any other amino acid. One of the proteins they chose was the 92 residue lambda repressor.

Sauer et. al. calculated that:
... there should be about 10^57 different allowed sequences for the entire 92 residue domain. ... the calculation does indicate in a qualitative way the tremendous degeneracy in the information that specifies a particular protein fold. Nevertheless, the estimated number of sequences capable of adopting the lambda repressor fold is still an exceedingly small fraction, about 1 in 10^63, of the total possible 92 residue sequences.

Sauer et. al. go on to highlight that Yockey (1978) had obtained a similar result for cytochrome C.

Biologists R.T. Sauer, James U Bowie, John F.R. Olson, and Wendall A. Lim, 1989, 'Proceedings of the National Academy of Science's USA 86, 2152-2156. and 1990, March 16, Science, 247; and, Olson and R.T. Sauer, 'Proteins: Structure, Function and Genetics', 7:306 - 316, 1990.

This hard science is a striking confirmation of Yockey's theoretical work. In summing up, I quote creationists Professors Percival Davis (Ph.D., Life Sciences) and Dean Kenyon (Ph.D. Biology):

Of Pandas and People said:
These calculations [Sauer's] showed that the odds of finding a folded protein are about 1/10^65, a striking confirmation of Yockey's calculations. It means all proteins that have been examined to date, either by comparison of analogous sequences from different species, have been seen to be surrounded by an almost infinitely wide chasm of unfolded, nonfunctional, useless protein sequences. There are in fact no "stepping stones"! In other words, an undirected search will not hit upon any of the end protein sequences sought in the time allowed by the age of the universe. The various functional classes of proteins apparently are so isolated, they could not have risen from one another.

The 2nd Law falsifies Evolution. It falsifies abiogenesis and Evolution in that life as we observe it requires a flow of molecular arrangements from high probability molecular arrangements to ones of extraordinarily low probability states. In terms of energy, there is not enough energy and time in our galaxy (or Universe) to perform the work needed to make an undirected search for abiogenesis or the above described 'protein sequences' to find the necessary series of molecular arrangements reasonable probable.

The 2nd law is a central question for those who hold to spontaneous generation:

Nobel Laureate, Biologists Christian De Duve, in his 1995 book `Vital Dust', states that any and all scenarios for spontaneous generationmust be certain that each step of the process flows from lower probability to higher probability so as not to violate the 2nd law.

According to the eminent information theoretician & evolutionist Yockey:
An uninvited guest (Schroedinger, 1955; du Nouy,1947; Prigogine, and Nicolis 1971; Gatlin, 1972; Prigogine, Nicolis & Babyloyantz, 1972; Volkenstein, 1973) at any discussion of the origin of life and evolution from the materialistic reductionist point of view, is the role of thermodynamic entropy and the 'heat death' of the universe which it predicts. The universe should in every way go from states which are less probable to those which are more probable. Therefore, hot bodies cool; energy is conserved but becomes less available to do work. According to this uninvited guest, the spontaneous generation of life is highly improbable ( Prigogine, Nicolis, and Babyloyantz, 1972). The uninvited guest will not go away nor will the biological evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.
 
What a bunch of hooey.
 
Evolution can be seen everyday... why do you think we don't just need one flu shot?
 
There is a difference between the scale of chaos vs. order and evolution. Chaos is a more conductive environment for evolution than order, and evolution itself is chaos in action. Just the particular masses of chaotic particles that survive outcompete those that fail. What's difficult to understand here?
 
Azadre said:
Evolution can be seen everyday... why do you think we don't just need one flu shot?

That's just a conspiracy generated by pharmeceutical companies! ;)

Anyway, the article kill sitself in the second paragraph, because that's exactly what the second law of thermodynaics states, that we are in a world reducing entropy (i.e. chaos) and that once that chaos is ordered it cannot go back.
 
Tyrus88 said:
The 2nd Law not only present a major scientific headache for those who wish to believe in evolution, it actually falsifies evolution. Too bad dogmatic evolutionists know so little science.

Kinda ironic, considering. You're taking a proven law in one area of science, and applying it to another. You're ignoring the fact that life does everything it can to survive and reproduce. This outside influence easily over-rides the 2nd law. You're ignoring all the concrete evidence in favor of evolution, and grasping at anything that the gerneral public can be convinced of. Nice try, but there nothing here that invalidates evolution.
 
Azadre, Micro-Evolution such as Dog-Breeding and Virus Mutation isn't the same Evolution(MACRO, as in the Goo-to-you variety) that Tyrus is disproving here.

Micro Evolution has been proven, however, Macro hasn't, and can never be proven, because it is false, and impossible.
 
taper said:
Kinda ironic, considering. You're taking a proven law in one area of science, and applying it to another. You're ignoring the fact that life does everything it can to survive and reproduce. This outside influence easily over-rides the 2nd law.
What's really ironic is that your grasp of the implications of thermodynamics for evolution seems to be as tenuous as that of the OP.

Life cannot override the 2nd Law. Evolution in no way conflicts with the 2nd Law.
 
Sword_Of_Geddon said:
Azadre, Micro-Evolution such as Dog-Breeding and Virus Mutation isn't the same Evolution(MACRO, as in the Goo-to-you variety) that Tyrus is disproving here.

Micro evolution easily can be shown to lead to macro evolution.

Micro Evolution has been proven, however, Macro hasn't, and can never be proven, because it is false, and impossible.

Do you actually want a discussion? Seems not, since you believe that it is impossible with apparently no room for error.
 
Thermodynamics is prety much empirical.
It states transaction from order to chaos; in most cases, the travel of heat to colder areas.
 
North King said:
Micro evolution easily can be shown to lead to macro evolution.



Do you actually want a discussion? Seems not, since you believe that it is impossible with apparently no room for error.

I doubt you'd listen to any arguements from me, people will always protect their core beliefs, right or wrong.
 
The Last Conformist said:
Well, the 2nd Law can be derived from both classical and quantum mechanics with the help of statistical analysis.

hmmm... not so sure there, statistical mechanics being one area of physics that is very hazy to me. But it seems to me that at a quantum level we cannot state the second law in the same way as we state it at a macro (statistical) level. Because at a quantum level don't we lose the concept of entropy as we understand it at a macro level?

for example, what is the entropy of an electron? the question is unanwerable as stated. So what is the entropy of 2 or 12 electrons. It is still unanwerable. However, the entrpy of 1 molecule or 12 molecules is answerable because we can relate the entropy to the molecules temperature.

I may be making some fundamental mistake here though. Would appreciate if you can tell me at least broadly how you can dereive the second law from quantum statiscal mechanics.

As to the OP: Learn thermod, learn evolution then you can start debating it. Otherwise your only supporters would be people like Sword of G. ;)
 
Oh yeah, if you know a lot about relativity, you'll also know it's possible this is just a HUGE illusion. Remember, when anti-matter and matter join, the just reform photons.
 
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