The Egyptians=Greek?

Hi everyone. I really like the idea of having multiple leaders for each civ, and with different traits. This is really great and allow for a lot of varieties.

As for leaders for China, I really wanna see some new ones. I'm tired of Mao... his Civ 3 pic is UGLY!

Here are some ideas:

Name: Shi Huangdi of Chin (literally means, the First Emperor)
Pros: he created a unified China; set the Chinese borders for the next 1800 years; set the political system for the next 2200 years; some say the word "China" is the Latin word for "Chin"
Cons: he was a brutal tyrant
Traits: militaristic and industrious (hey, he started the Great Wall!)

Name: Wudi of Han (the militaristic emperor)
Pros: his throne name says it all - lots of military victories, mostly in beating back the Huns; conquered north Korea; introduced state-run industries
Cons: his conquests almost broke the country economically
Traits: militaristic and commercial (his economic reforms did make money, although not enough for his conquests)

Name: Taizong of Tang (Li Shi-Min)
Pros: most famous Chinese emperor (just ahead of Shi Huangdi); both a great general and great administrator; created the second golden age for China
Cons: he led a failed attempt to conquer north Korea (Koguryo) (his son was successful though)
Traits: commercial and agricultural
Notes: he personally shot his younger brother, before seeing his body guard followed suit and shot his older brother; but some of the officials who helped him in the Jinguan golden age were his older brother's followers ; Chinatown is called "Tang people's street" in Chinese

Name: Sun Yat-Sen (father of the nation)
Pros: leader of the revolution to end the empire; he is considered by Chinese people on any side as "Father of the Nation", greatest Chinese man ever
Cons: it's very politically sensitive to put him in the game though, cuz the Taiwan government uses him as the figure head, putting him as the leader for China may make Mainland ponder if the game developer is trying to deliver "some message"
Trait: commercial and scientific

These are all great men who created new eras. I could list more but... oh well.

Personally I would like to see Sun Yat-Sen, but that will never happen. The game won't sell in Mainland China. And since Mao is the most well-known Chinese leader to the western world, I doubt if Civ will ever use another guy.

Just my 2 cents.

If it wasnt for Joan, France would be part of England right now... If abraham lincoln wasnt assasinated, he could've easily been the most influencial person in america.. And Cleopatra, she stopped the romans from taking over egypt. Greece, Persia, and Carths sure did'nt do that...

lobster said:

Hi everyone. I really like the idea of having multiple leaders for each civ, and with different traits. This is really great and allow for a lot of varieties.

As for leaders for China, I really wanna see some new ones. I'm tired of Mao... his Civ 3 pic is UGLY!

Here are some ideas:

Name: Shi Huangdi of Chin (literally means, the First Emperor)
Pros: he created a unified China; set the Chinese borders for the next 1800 years; set the political system for the next 2200 years; some say the word "China" is the Latin word for "Chin"
Cons: he was a brutal tyrant
Traits: militaristic and industrious (hey, he started the Great Wall!)

Name: Wudi of Han (the militaristic emperor)
Pros: his throne name says it all - lots of military victories, mostly in beating back the Huns; conquered north Korea; introduced state-run industries
Cons: his conquests almost broke the country economically
Traits: militaristic and commercial (his economic reforms did make money, although not enough for his conquests)

Name: Taizong of Tang (Li Shi-Min)
Pros: most famous Chinese emperor (just ahead of Shi Huangdi); both a great general and great administrator; created the second golden age for China
Cons: he led a failed attempt to conquer north Korea (Koguryo) (his son was successful though)
Traits: commercial and agricultural
Notes: he personally shot his younger brother, before seeing his body guard followed suit and shot his older brother; but some of the officials who helped him in the Jinguan golden age were his older brother's followers ; Chinatown is called "Tang people's street" in Chinese

Name: Sun Yat-Sen (father of the nation)
Pros: leader of the revolution to end the empire; he is considered by Chinese people on any side as "Father of the Nation", greatest Chinese man ever
Cons: it's very politically sensitive to put him in the game though, cuz the Taiwan government uses him as the figure head, putting him as the leader for China may make Mainland ponder if the game developer is trying to deliver "some message"
Trait: commercial and scientific

These are all great men who created new eras. I could list more but... oh well.

Personally I would like to see Sun Yat-Sen, but that will never happen. The game won't sell in Mainland China. And since Mao is the most well-known Chinese leader to the western world, I doubt if Civ will ever use another guy.

Just my 2 cents.

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Mao is an ugly commy.

Wolfwood said:

Not just Europeans, but presumably the very humanity was started in Africa. We could just as well have just one tribe in the game...

EDIT: Or perhaps two: cro-magnon and neanderthal, since it is presumed that they lived at about the same time...

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Well there was no Africa or Europe when man was made. They lands was most likely just one big land mass

you must be mixing some things up =) humanity appeared way after continents separated, afaik

AndrewH said:

Mao is an ugly commy.

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If they put Mao in, the game won't sell in China because then it would be possible to kill Mao. Try using Taizong (which is my prefered choice) or one of the other ancient leaders.

Cu Chulainn said:

Actually the only female leader who is really appropriate is Elizabeth. However the only one I have a problem with is Joan. Napoleon is the natural choice for France, not having him is just wrong.

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Pardon me, but what about Isabella?
You make a good point vikingruler, but who cares?

you can almost say the same thing for Catharine of Russia...

Well I DON'T have a degree in History but I'm gonna post anyway

(Actually I took a couple courses but I never paid much attention in class )

I think the game designers were shooting for a balance between historically correct, gender balanced (politically correct) and entertaining, as in, most people having heard of them. Like Jeanne D'Arc. There's the movie, with Milla Jovovich. That's why she's the Leader for the French and not Louis XIV or Monsieur Bonaparte. Come on, admit it, you wouldn't want to lose Joan with her foxy, tight Modern age GI Jane T-shirt...

That said, I would have preferred Hatsepsut for Egypt, although I understand why they chose Cleopatra. Cleopatra was Greek, not a pharaoh, didn't rule Egypt during its Golden Age, best known as Ceasar's mistress. Oh yeah, and for killing herself. And having a big nose.

No, Hatsepsut would've been way cooler. Ruled as a Pharaoh even though only men could really do that. The first feminist.


Someone mentioned Gustavus Adolphus (Gustav II Adolf) for Scandinavia...

Well, that would catapult us to Stormaktstiden ("Age of Great Power", yeah corny I know), ie 1523-1793 (ish), when Sweden owned all of Scandinavia (Norway, Denmark, Finland) and parts of Preussia, Russia and Poland as well as having a few colonies in the New World.

Only problem is, it wouldn't appeal to Norweigans and Danes. We (Swedes) were kinda evil back then. Vikings (should be "Norse" IMO) are represented fairly equally by Norweigans (explorers), Swedes (conquering/trading to the east) and Danes (conquering/trading to the west). And cooler too.

Sweden during Stormaktstiden could be represented by either Gustav II Adolf (great military leader), Gustav Vasa (first King of consolidated Sweden, did a lot of cool stuff like skiing across the land to raise an army, or selling all the church bells for cash so he could beat up neighboring countries, church bells being of solid gold those days) or Gustav III (the "Theatre King", really flamboyant fellow, last king of Stormaktstiden, got assassinated during a ball of which a lot of books and plays have been written).

My vote is for Gustav Vasa. Sweden would be... Militaristic and Scientific? Or Militaristic/Seafaring, or perhaps Scientific/Seafaring. One of those combos.

Maybe I should mod the Netherlands... no offense to Dutch people

EDIT: Oh, I forgot a UU! How about... (now this is really off the top of my head)... the Karoliner, Unique Musketman with reduced Cost (10 less Shields to produce) to represent Gustav Vasas rapid conscription program to quickly create a Swedish Army?

greekguy said:

Egypt for resons discussed in thsi thread. France because joan wasn't the most influlenticial french person and she wasn't even a leader!

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Joan of Arc may not have ruled over the nation, but she was a leader of people and France partially owes it's existence to her. This would be partially analagous to having General Patton replacing Lincoln, lol.

and america because lincoln wasn't our best president and i put those other 3 above him.

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Funny this has come up because within the past week Americans were polled as to who they think was the best president and Lincoln got first, with George Washington getting seventh.

I believe Lincoln was just as important as Washington, so I am ok with that choice. There are so many to choose from, both Roosevelts, Thomas Jefferson, Lincoln, Washington, etc. I am glad they chose Lincoln over, saaaay, Ronald Reagan, lol.

There's an anomally for you, Linclon is the head for USA but he doens't preside during the GA. Solution: change American UU to the ironclad.

budweiser said:

change American UU to the ironclad.

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How about a Continental Army UU? A Cavalry or Musketman that treats all terrain as if it were Roads?

Yes, I've been playing Colonization again.

slightlymarxist said:

Well I DON'T have a degree in History but I'm gonna post anyway

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That's the spirit!

slightlymarxist said:

(Actually I took a couple courses but I never paid much attention in class )

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Sounds like me and maths...

slightlymarxist said:

I think the game designers were shooting for a balance between historically correct, gender balanced (politically correct) and entertaining, as in, most people having heard of them. Like Jeanne D'Arc. There's the movie, with Milla Jovovich. That's why she's the Leader for the French and not Louis XIV or Monsieur Bonaparte. Come on, admit it, you wouldn't want to lose Joan with her foxy, tight Modern age GI Jane T-shirt...

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You are probably right in your assumption about why the chosen leaders are in. But I could lose Jeanne D'Arc anytime. I have a real woman ten times hotter. Her only flaw is her taste in music...

slightlymarxist said:

That said, I would have preferred Hatsepsut for Egypt, although I understand why they chose Cleopatra. Cleopatra was Greek, not a pharaoh, didn't rule Egypt during its Golden Age, best known as Ceasar's mistress. Oh yeah, and for killing herself. And having a big nose.

No, Hatsepsut would've been way cooler. Ruled as a Pharaoh even though only men could really do that. The first feminist.

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Interesting choice.

slightlymarxist said:

Someone mentioned Gustavus Adolphus (Gustav II Adolf) for Scandinavia...

Well, that would catapult us to Stormaktstiden ("Age of Great Power", yeah corny I know), ie 1523-1793 (ish), when Sweden owned all of Scandinavia (Norway, Denmark, Finland) and parts of Preussia, Russia and Poland as well as having a few colonies in the New World.

Only problem is, it wouldn't appeal to Norweigans and Danes. We (Swedes) were kinda evil back then. Vikings (should be "Norse" IMO) are represented fairly equally by Norweigans (explorers), Swedes (conquering/trading to the east) and Danes (conquering/trading to the west). And cooler too.

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I am Norwegian and I wouldn't mind having Sweden in the game instead of Scandinavia.However I feel I must correct you a bit, Sweden only became a great power after its successfull intervention in the Thirty Years War - before that Denmark was the leading power in Scandinavia - and it became reduced to a secondrate-power after that distraous battle of Poltava in 1712. Sweden never "owned" Denmark and Norway neither. But in the time between those occasions it was surely a leading country in Europe.

slightlymarxist said:

Sweden during Stormaktstiden could be represented by either Gustav II Adolf (great military leader), Gustav Vasa (first King of consolidated Sweden, did a lot of cool stuff like skiing across the land to raise an army, or selling all the church bells for cash so he could beat up neighboring countries, church bells being of solid gold those days) or Gustav III (the "Theatre King", really flamboyant fellow, last king of Stormaktstiden, got assassinated during a ball of which a lot of books and plays have been written).

My vote is for Gustav Vasa. Sweden would be... Militaristic and Scientific? Or Militaristic/Seafaring, or perhaps Scientific/Seafaring. One of those combos.

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I think definitely Gustav II Adolf should be leader, especially since a Swedish civ with him as leaderhead has already been made. Check out this link with the creation of one of the greatest artists of the game,Civ Army s.1994, it is quite good: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=95950
In that mod Sweden is scientific and industrious, an OK choice. Your suggestions are also good. And we could consider militaristic and industrious as well.

slightlymarxist said:

EDIT: Oh, I forgot a UU! How about... (now this is really off the top of my head)... the Karoliner, Unique Musketman with reduced Cost (10 less Shields to produce) to represent Gustav Vasas rapid conscription program to quickly create a Swedish Army?

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Civ Army s.1994 uses Karolinian musketeer in his mod, a musketman with two extra defensive points costing just ten shields extra . A good choice, even I would prefer Swedish musketeer from the 30 years war with blitz ability(the Swedish musketeers were known for their ability to load and fire rapidly).
Finally, if you pardon my curiosity,how much marxist is "slightly"?

luceafarul said:

You are probably right in your assumption about why the chosen leaders are in. But I could lose Jeanne D'Arc anytime. I have a real woman ten times hotter. Her only flaw is her taste in music...

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I hear ya.

Mine likes Backstreet Boys *shudder*

luceafarul said:

Finally, if you pardon my curiosity,how much marxist is "slightly"?

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As in: "just a bit".

They only put Joan in for France so it could be a peaceful country, which I beleive is wrong. It's only scince WW2 that France has been a peaceful country, really, as in the Middle Ages and Industrial Agesthey were fighting wars left, right and centre.

If the Byzantines had to be there AT ALL then it should at least be the propper ruler, Theodora's husband. But I say they should have replaced Byzantime for something else.

And I think they probabky only put in Mao so that they could include another Communist government, as only Russia and the Iroquis were Communist back then.

Darius should be Persias ruler, as he was BY FAR the greatest!

The non-agressive Iraquis(SP?) should be a more agressive Souix, with Sitting Bull, as he is a more universaly known leader.

I agree Egypt should bed Rammesies, but Alexander is the best Greek choise, IMO.

For Greece, I actually sort of like Pericles better. Although he wasn't the leader of all of Greece, only an important person in Athens, he accomplished military victories (the Long Walls strategy in the Peloponnesian War), cultural (helping continue democracy in Athens), and diplomatic (keeping the peace with Sparta as long as he did took skill). He's more balanced than Alex, who was a kickass general (the best ever), but he wasn't a cultural icon like some of the other important Greeks.

For the Byzantines, I think Justinian (Theodora's husband) isn't that great of a choice, because his generals did all of the work for him, like Belisarius. Theodora wasn't that great of a choice, either. There isn't really a stand-out leader for the Byzantines, although they were a great civ, lasting until the 1400s under serious Muslim pressure. They even built the Hagia Sofia at the same time.

I agree on one point: though an obvious off-spring of Greek and Latin culture, the Byzantine Civ had its own flavor and was a great, complex and fascinating civ! Of course, it's strange to have it in the same game than Romans and Greeks...