Next Stage of Agreements with KISS

fe3333au · Nov 29, 2005

This is to discuss the forth comming written agreements with KISS ...

1. Please add your thoughts and clauses.

2. Also assist in final drafting process

fe3333au · Nov 29, 2005

Summary of discussion Point raised at last KISS chat

1. Concrete the Republic Deal ... for Literature, Map Making and Mathematics

2. Sell Horseback Riding for the screenies of the Nut and TNT capitals

3. Add a clause about time taken to research and add a late fee of 1 gold per turn ??

4. Future Research KISS do Construction and MIA deliver Currancy
:mischief:

We will already have it so could do Monarchy?

Anything else?

I will do the beaker costs later

Chamnix · Nov 29, 2005

Screenies of capitals are not important to me, so the HBR deal sounds bad on its own, but Construction is more expensive than Currency, so when considered together 2 and 4 combined make sense.

I don’t care much for the late clause since both teams need to be able to adapt to circumstances, and it just encourages lying about completion time, and it might even encourage people not quite to finish ASAP, but to delay until the promised completion time. I think we just need to be honest about research rates and recognize that the team completing first is under no obligation to give any techs until the slower team completes as well. I don’t really see penalties as beneficial.

Monarchy is useless. If we are certain we are getting Polytheism from Donuts, Currency from TNT, and Construction from KISS, then we should turn off research after Literature until the Middle Ages. Note we still might pop one or two of the remaining techs from our remaining goody huts and not even have to pay for it.

fe3333au · Nov 30, 2005

Draft to be sent to Whomp and/or Daghie via PM

Dear KISS idiots

We are eager to continue our special relationship ... following a chat with Dags where we discussed current and future options I have penned this draft list for you to analyse and feedback on

1. Concrete the Republic Deal
>
Republic - 28* ... 28x60 x 1/7 = 1440 (KISS)

Literature - 10* ... 10x60 x 1/7 = 514 (MIA)
Map Making - 12 ... 12x60 x 1/7 = 617 (MIA)
Mathematics - 8 ... 8x60 x 3/7 = 274 (MIA, TNT, Nut)
>Outcome = 1440 - 1405 = 35

2. Horseback Riding Options
>
Horseback Riding - 5 ... 5x60 x 2/7 = 214 (MIA, Nut)

Option A ... for the screenies of the Nut and TNT capitals
Option B ... for 1 worker
Option C ... save for later trade

3. Late Fee
>
We would like you to consider setting a maximum time limit on trade deals and then adding a late fee of 1gp per every turn after the stated completion time. This will ensure delivery of tech when stated, Forces Majeure, Acts of Meleet and other things outré and not directly in your control would be a legitimate excuse to not exercise this clause if late in delivery.

4. Future Research
>
KISS supply Construction and MIA deliver Currency
We claim the knowledge of trading with tokens as it fits our trait
Construction - 20 ... 20x60 x 1/7 = 1028 (KISS)
Currency - 16 ... 16x60 x 1/7 = 823 (MIA)
>Outcome = 1028 - 823 = 205

We will await your thoughts and then our scribes will prepare a document.

Good fortune to you

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

Foreign Staff ... Kentharu and Classical_Hero are also at your service.

Cold Economics

Construction - 20 ... 20x60 x 1/7 = 1028 (KISS)
Currency - 16 ... 16x60 x 1/7 = 823 (MIA)
Horseback Riding - 5 ... 5x60 x 2/7 = 214 (MIA, Nut)
>Outcome = 1028 - 823 = -9 ... They will suggest this I suspect :mischief:

Chamnix · Nov 30, 2005

All of your 60s should be 30s, but that doesn't change the net result.

As I mentioned before, I would only trade HBR for screenies if we get Construction for Currency - as long as they can't pick 2A and reject 4 I'm happy.

fe3333au · Nov 30, 2005

Done and sent to Whomp

Dear KISS idiots

We are eager to continue our special relationship ... following a chat with Dags where we discussed current and future options I have penned this draft list for you to analyse and feedback on

1. Concrete the Republic Deal
>
Republic - 28* ... 28x30 x 1/7 = 720 (KISS)

Literature - 10* ... 10x30 x 1/7 = 257 (MIA)
Map Making - 12 ... 12x30 x 1/7 = 309 (MIA)
Mathematics - 8 ... 8x30 x 3/7 = 137 (MIA, TNT, Nut)
>Outcome = 720 - 703 = 17

2. Horseback Riding Options
>
Horseback Riding - 5 ... 5x30 x 2/7 = 107 (MIA, Nut)

Option A ... for the screenies of the Nut and TNT capitals
Option B ... for 1 worker
Option C ... save for later trade

3. Late Fee
>
We would like you to consider setting a maximum time limit on trade deals and then adding a late fee of 1gp per every turn after the stated completion time. This will ensure delivery of tech when stated, Forces Majeure, Acts of Meleet and other things outré and not directly in your control would be a legitimate excuse to not exercise this clause if late in delivery.

4. Future Research
>
KISS supply Construction and MIA deliver Currency
We claim the knowledge of trading with tokens as it fits our trait
Construction - 20 ... 20x30 x 1/7 = 514 (KISS)
Currency - 16 ... 16x30 x 1/7 = 411 (MIA)
>Outcome = 514 - 411 = 103

We will await your thoughts and then our scribes will prepare a document.

Good fortune to you

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

Foreign Staff ... Kentharu and Classical_Hero are also at your service.

fe3333au · Nov 30, 2005

Chatting with Whomp and sent

<hellos and stuff>

Draft being ... ummm ... drafted
fe3333au: I am working on a draft of future agreements b/w us as Dags requested
bawhomp: little confusing last night
fe3333au: I was not chatting last night ... you confused with Dag or life in general
bawhomp: With Dagh
fe3333au: can I help with anything?
bawhomp: It sounded like we weren't getting certain techs

Yes siree Bob
fe3333au: We are trading upto the value ... your fault for taking too long with republic ... I think that's fair
bawhomp: I'm not sure that we could've changed that on republic except for 3-4 turns
fe3333au: How you get heaps of cash then?

What the ... ?!!
bawhomp: If you run min it was no different than max ... At the outset ... we could've turned it up later which is true

Outline for discussion
fe3333au: We are offering Lit, MM, Maths ... only other we have is HBR ... which is not essential and will offer to you anyway ... We also looking at future techs ... We currently researching Lit
bawhomp: I can understand your concern but I think the solution is that we research poly and currency and you run construction

Oh Noooo you don't Matey
bawhomp: prolly currency first
fe3333au: Hmmm ... we thought we do Currancy and Poly ... we get quicker
bawhomp: Construction is the most expensive but currency is the most valuable
fe3333au: anyway it is all in the draft I am currently writing up
bawhomp: k
fe3333au: Currency is our trait so we feel strong affinity for it

KISS side of things
bawhomp: I think there's a few things to bear in mind on not giving all techs
1. We could not trade
2. You guys had two opportunities for SGLs

<Whomp took break>

Reasonable ... as usual ... i'm having fun
bawhomp: OK let me say we should've turned up research a few turns earlier
fe3333au: From beginning I reccon
bawhomp: Wouldn't help
fe3333au: Just let me say this ... we are NOT going to war over this OK
bawhomp: I understand
fe3333au: just friendly battle with quills ... Gives me something to do between chats LOL
bawhomp: I know and I don't want to come off as difficult
fe3333au: shoot sir

Whomp justification continues
bawhomp: That early cities can't produce the beakers to run max ... however we should've turned up science earlier than we did ... so to compensate I think embassy pictures should suffice ... =110g
bawhomp: one minute

<another break>

fe3333au: That was one option in my proposal ... look I'll send it now so we can banter about it before you eat ... you want e-mail or PM?
bawhomp: email
fe3333au: sent ... not spell checked yet
bawhomp: checking

Just Read Chamnix comment about beaker conversion
fe3333au: been told the numbers should be 30 NOT 60 ... but result shoul be sameish

Continued ... still having fun
bawhomp: There was never an opportunity to run that many beakers early on ... fyi
fe3333au: I understand ... I'm just fixing the maths on the document ... I will send official Draft to your KISS e-mail or to yoy?
bawhomp: i changed the 60 to 30
fe3333au: I will and I'm also spelling correcting as i go ... so will send to you to post on KISS thread?

fe3333au: sent fixed draft ... still getting used to beaker conversions

Betting Rules
fe3333au: Thinking of having something about Gambling as well
bawhomp: hehe
fe3333au: did Dags tell you? ... We bet on the outcome of battles ... which Nuts and TNT report to us about ... 1 gold sort of deal
bawhomp: you and i discussed it silly
fe3333au: k ... I was saying to Dags we could increase stakes to cities ... he gulped and said didn't think so ... I said if I bet with Skippy he could
bawhomp: i already warned Skippy no city gambling
fe3333au: he he he ... all we gotta do is find out any upcomming battles

Out of the Blue ... yikes !!
bawhomp: should we tell one of the teams we will give republic if they research poly?
fe3333au: you want to swap republic for poly?
bawhomp: not sure the exact beaker cost but i'm thinking if one of them can research it after we get the other techs then we're out of the Anc. age

<No Comment>

bawhomp: not sure it's a good idea though
fe3333au: we can discuss nearer the time ... I have no thoughts atm

Back to KISS side of things
bawhomp: my only issue with the deal is we couldn't trade ... the time to republic i understand ... but that's cash
fe3333au: the looong time ... yes
bawhomp: it only added a few turns and i will get the exact number if you wish
fe3333au: From 33 to suddenly 20 is a third reduction
bawhomp: That was because we were running min ... it didn't matter if we started at max ... it wouldn't help the turns

Enough Mate ... Got very slightly miffed
fe3333au: I know if you were maxing it would have been faster
bawhomp: I will find out exactly how many
fe3333au: We were maxing
bawhomp: i understand but republic is different .... max or min initially doesn't matter
fe3333au: quicker we both are means the tech lead is very long

Compensation Issue
fe3333au: and you must also understand the to get HBR deal we paid gold ... you get all tech PLUS the gold we spent to get extra tech is NOT fair

Whomp settles down
bawhomp: ok we will discuss for sure. How much gold did you pay?
fe3333au: they wanted 50 ... but got it for 12 ... damn I'm good ... or 15 have to check

Still Finger pointing on Whomp's chest ... Embassy
fe3333au: The other thing ... is that you have intel on us with the embassy ... ie. our Capital
bawhomp: ok well i think we feel our hands were tied because of CoL and philo
fe3333au: luck of popping ... Meleet was smiling on us ... all others have been barbs
bawhomp: i understand but it's not like we haven't been square on these as well so don't forget those
fe3333au: I am certainly aware of it ... thats why I am square with you

Diffusing Joke
fe3333au: we are cubed LOL
bawhomp: hehe
fe3333au: Personally I congratulate you on getting the embassies ... good play
bawhomp: bede and ak's call ... they decided on embassies
fe3333au: yes ... I probably would have done same ... I have been harping about embassies for a while now ... but no cash
bawhomp: well i think we can share
fe3333au: Of course

Philosophical Fe
fe3333au: We are but fellow drinkers in life's pub ... discussing who is to buy the next round
bawhomp: so true

Change Subject to TNT
fe3333au: Any TNT responce?
bawhomp: we sent them myst instead ... we'll see ... we need to write a letter ... turns are moving pretty quick so we sent myst instead
fe3333au: Too quick ... Always a turn on weekend ... not good

<Ignoring the Myst deal ... we still will add Maths to our equation>

We will have to work out a responce to KISS if they say ... for Republic well give us Lit, Map Making and HBR instead of Maths since they have already got that tech now from TNT !!!

Chamnix · Nov 30, 2005

The tone is getting decidely tenser in these chats. I think they liked us a lot better when we were their poorer cousins - now that we have a tech lead and are keeping up in settlements they are getting uncomfortable...

Whomp may be right about Republic not taking any longer on minimum if they did not spend gold on anything else, and if their Treasury is at zero when they complete Republic. Here's the basics:

Suppose their gross commerce is 35 gpt, and they are spending 5 gpt on maintenance, and they have 0 in their Treasury. Running at maximum, they could get 30 bpt, have 0 gpt going to their Treasury and complete Republic in 28 turns. If they run minimum (1 bpt), then their Treasury increases by 29 gpt. They could run minimum for 4 turns and have 4 beakers invested and 116 gold in their Treasury. Then they turn up to maximum, and for the next 23 they could run a deficit gaining 35 bpt and having their Treasury go down by 5 gpt. They still finish in 28 turns.

I know I didn't pick numbers that made it very clear, but I hope I got the concept across. The bottom line is if they didn't build embassies (but they did), and if they didn't upgrade any warriors to Gallic Swords (we can't tell), and if their Treasury is being run down to zero (we can't tell), then whomp's claim about minimum vs. maximum being the same is not completely ludicrous.

As far as the SGL chances, they have nobody to blame but themselves. From our very first conversation, kentharu wanted us to do Writing, but they insisted they would do it. If they hadn't undercut us on the initial Donuts deal for Philosophy and Code of Laws, then we would have been in position to do Republic. Throughout the Ancient Age, they have made it so they would do the most expensive techs even though we wanted to do them. They can't come crying for compensation now.

Finally, a thought about the late fee - I like it even less if we are relying on TNT to get us Currency, for example. I would hate for TNT to be late delivering it to us and having us owe KISS for that.

fe3333au · Nov 30, 2005

Nothing is written in stone ... was just a suggestion ... it may even 'look' good if we drop it in the next agreement ... shows that we are friendlier.

I am unsure when to bring up potential deals though ... Whomp really stumped me with his suggestion to give Republic for Poly.

Option 1
We add a clause about compensation from TNT or Nuts if they do not deliver tech to us as promised ... just incase KISS try to double deal ...

Option 2
We reinforce the clause about selling any new tech to the other party at reduced cost ... but do we still keep secret until finalised?

Option 3
We are totally open ... but then again can we totally trust these guys? ... Bebe and Tubby ??

peter grimes · Nov 30, 2005

I hope Whomp doesn't think that we are trying to get out of our end of the Republic deal, because we certainly feel that KISSMIA is the best thing going on in this game. But he/they should understand our perplexion:

We are researching and trading around at deficit pace to hasten the day KISSMIA can finally get out of the Ancient Age, only to find that our trading ally has effectively turned of research to the point that they have amassed about 200 gold (conservatively) to spend on embassies. I really want to trust them. Believe me, I do. KISSMIA can be a powerful means to our end (victory by space race).

But I don't really trust his economic advisors who claim that maximizing cash for 5 turns won't detract from the number of beakers they can apply towards a tech. It is a zero sum equation: Whenever gold is being accumulated, it is at the expense of beakers.

Don't misunderstand me, though: I want KISS to remain close and profitable partners with us. We must remain close and good friends. We must accept whatever they propose as an apology, and swiftly move on. Next time, though, they should really tell us if they are shutting off research (as we should as well). Let's kiss and make up, get into Republics, and start scheming about eliminating the other teams!

fe3333au · Dec 1, 2005

Wonderfully said Grimsey ... if things get heavy I may just send them a transcript ... or even if things don't get heavy

I think things are groovey ... and having these little pokes just reinforces that we should be treated as equal partners ... and we have done some things at their expense as well ... I was actually going to suggest we 'embassy' them ... they just beat us to the punch ... but in a non-kosha manner

Shalom

Chamnix · Dec 1, 2005

peter grimes said:
But I don't really trust his economic advisors who claim that maximizing cash for 5 turns won't detract from the number of beakers they can apply towards a tech. It is a zero sum equation: Whenever gold is being accumulated, it is at the expense of beakers.

It may only detract temporarily. Look at it this way - if you have zero gold, then researching at "maximum" may only be 80% science because you need some percentage going to tax to pay building maintenance. If you research at 10% for a while, then you accumulate gold. You can then turn science up to 100% and run a deficit. It is possible that 10% for a while and 100% for a while gets the tech at exactly the same time as 80% throughout.

The only problem is that instead of running a deficit, they spent their gold on embassies. They delayed Republic by the amount of gold spent of embassies (plus gold spent on other things plus gold remaining in their Treasury when Republic is completed) divided by their commerce per turn. It is definitely possible this was only about 4-5 turns.

peter grimes · Dec 1, 2005

@Chamnix: Well put, I understand now. At first I thought you were thinking that buying the embassies didn't delay Republic at all. My mistake.

@Fe: If you do send that, EDIT OUT THE SPACE RACE MENTION

fe3333au · Dec 3, 2005

Following from a chat with Whomp ... they will be addressing our draft very soon ... KISS have been busy MicroManaging ... see latest chat Post 14

Was going to discuss our trading deals ... but everyone angry at Provo :aargh:

... see his aggressive comments (where he is even bagging his own team for making bad civ choice) ... all out in the open for all to see in the UN Who will Win poll ... which I started so players could start to engaging and have fun with each other !!!

Someone should gag him :gripe:

Chamnix · Dec 3, 2005

The real question seems to be who will do Construction. Obviously we want KISS to do it while we save cash, but on the other hand, we could start it next turn while they can't start it for another 14 or so. It is hard to explain that we want to sit around and do nothing for 14 turns plus the turns while they do Construction.

Yes, we were the ones who pulled off the deals with TNT and Donuts, and yes, we can give KISS Polytheism and Currency for Construction (good deal for them), but we didn't actually research either of them so it will take some smooth diplomacy to convince them that we are entitled to do nothing for that long.

classical_hero · Dec 3, 2005

We sould say that we are following what they have done by going slow with Republic. We should have got it earlier and they would have benefited also. We are just using there tactics on them. Obviously we need to be much more subtle than I am.

Chamnix · Dec 3, 2005

I think our "excuse" may be that we want to keep the Green Alliance hidden. We are giving them Literature, Map Making, and HBR for Republic. If we have Polytheism, Currency, and Construction, and they have none, then how can we explain KISS getting those techs to the other continent?

Of course, in reality, if we research Construction and give all 3 to KISS the turn we discover it, then nobody else could tell who actually researched Construction, but I don't have any other ideas on how to sell KISS the fact that Construction is their job.

fe3333au · Dec 3, 2005

I think that the excuse for us turning off research is simple ... we have nothing left to learn

We will be accumulating gold as long as KISS take to research Construction ... and as soon as they do, both members of the Green Alliance will swap techs and then boldly enter the new age together :woohoo:

Why do we need cash ??? ... To earn cash so we can build embassies before they are built onto us ... and then to swap photos with KISS and see how the Golden Age has changes things for the Battle Islanders.

KISS will appreciate the intel on their enemy just as much as we will since we both have target teams and require solid data for our respective battle plans :evil:

While TNT write nicely worded letters ... My trust for them is equally proportional to the energy that they have used to control and gag Provo

fe3333au · Dec 5, 2005

Proposed to send to KISS ... it will outline the Deal of the Century

... will be sending soon.

Dear KISS idiots

I'd like to add yet more issues to take you away from the toils of Empire micro management ... this is incorporating the already proposed technology trades ... so strap in and sit back ... and enjoy the show

<Darkness and Silence>

Cue Spot Light on Presenter ... 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... Go

Laaaadies and Gentlemeeeeen !!!

Teeeeeam MIA ... Preeeesntzzzz !!!

Cue Fanfare ... 3 ... 2 ...

Behind the Fanfare Curtian
"Anyway Hans I tell her that what I have is very big, the biggest in the village"
"What did she say to that?"
"Jakob, she did not believe me. So I had to her show my..."
"Damn it all ... Quick !!! ... We must NOW loudly Blow !!!"

TOOO - TA - TOOOO - TA - TOOOOOO

"Ha Jakob, almost missed the cue ..."
"Shhhhhh !!!"

The Deeeeal of the Centurrrrrrrrry !!!!

Cue Background Muzak ... 3 ... 2 ...

<The Sting Sound Track>

The Background ...

Through the sheer brilliance and deviousness of MIA's Department of Barter and Trade, we have managed to procure for the Green Alliance ...

ALL of the technology required for us the complete the Ancient Age !!!

Dramatic Pause ending on 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... Go

This through the exchange of minimal technology to the competing Battle Islander factions.

OK ... Here is how it works ...

Cue Smart Money ... ending in 3 ... 2 ... 1 ... Go

Part 1. KISS presents MIA the knowledge of Republic

KISS give Republic in return for MIA supplying Literature, Map Making and Mathematics.

>Trade Value Tally ...
MIA goods = 10(300) + 12(360) + 8(240) = 30(900)
KISS goods = 28(840)

Part 2. The Green Cabal livessss onnnn ... in Secret

MIA will send the Horseback Riding and then later Polytheism in an intermittent random pattern so as not to spread fuel to an already paranoid environment abroad.

>Trade Value Tally ...
MIA goods = 30(900) + 5(150) + 12(360) = 47(1410)
KISS goods = 28(840)

>The Cost ...
Nuts get Literature = 10(300)

Part 3. and then MIA present the Fiiiiinal Countdownnnnn

And then the coupe de gras ... when KISS supplies Construction, MIA will return with the knowledge of Currency.

>Trade Value Tally ...
MIA goods = 47(1410) + 16(480) = 63(1890)
KISS goods = 28(840) + 20(600) = 48(1440)

>The Cost ...
TNT get Writing, Mysticism and Horseback Riding
= 8(240) + 4(120) + 5(150) = 17(510)

How would you like to join hands with us and hand in hand, together drive the Green Alliance into the next Age together ...

Cue Big Men in Funny Little Cars

"Brrrrrmmm Brummmm"
"Peddle Faster"
"Brrrrrrmmmmm"

Loooong Live theeeee Alliance ... Greeeen Forrrreverrrr !!!!

Click to expand...

We will await your thoughts and then our scribes will prepare a document.

We remind you that this is TOP SECRET !!!!

Good fortune to you

Feaurius III
MIA Foreign Minister

Foreign Staff ... Kentharu and Classical_Hero are also at your service.

btw ... I know I'm recycling ... but it made me laugh when initially done.

EDIT ... Imaged removed ... see final draft

Chamnix · Dec 5, 2005

Looks great to me - the tricky part will come when you explain to them that we are not actually researching many of the techs we are delivering, but that is probably best handled in a chat. Of course, we don't actually need their approval for the Polytheism for Literature deal with Donuts - maybe let KISS believe we are researching Polytheism next? But there is always the risk that Donuts will tell KISS...

Next Stage of Agreements with KISS

Deity

Deity

Chasing Time

Deity

Chasing Time

Deity

Deity

Chasing Time

Deity

...

Deity

Chasing Time

...

Deity

Chasing Time

In whom I trust

Chasing Time

Deity

Deity

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