Something fishy about AI techs

Since Karadoc has Drama, nobody can trade it to him, and it appears in no other civ's list. At least one other civ does not have it, though, so Karadoc can trade it, and it does appear in his list.

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That's right. I expect you'd find Mansu-Mansa had Drama.

What you need to do is trade more.

Mansa has Monotheism and Metal Casting and will trade them. You could then trade the one you get (a turn later) to Mao, Roosevelt, and Peter.

From Peter, for the tech from Mansa, Polytheism, and/or Drama you could get CoL or Construction, which Mao and Roosevelt both need.

From Roosevelt, you can then get Currency, which Mao needs.

From Mao you get Calendar and Monarchy.

If you trade around, you should be able to get Monotheism, Construction, Currency, Calendar, and Monarchy at the least. You may be able to get Metal Casting, Code of Laws, Currency, Calendar, and Monarchy. Depending on how much cash the AI's have, you may even be able to get both Code of Laws and Construction, but it would be unlikely.

What twists my nipple the wrong way is that the AI seems to trade with eachother with extreme lenience.

When they trade, are their techs redded out? I don't think so. Usually I'll try to trade techs that everyone has (a sign that they traded with eachother) and it'll be redded out, by ALL of the AI Civs.

If it's red, why are they trading with eachother and not me? The redded out stuff has to go. If they don't wanna trade it, they can say no, but to not have the option to ask in the first place is ridiculous.

It'll be redded out for you because of your diplomatic standing with that particular AI player.
I don't understand why people are moaning about the redded out options - they're still displayed because it lets you know they have them, but they're red because NO DEAL YOU COULD OFFER WOULD MAKE THE AI WILLING TO TRADE THEM at that present time, because they want to hang on to it for a wonder, unit, in order to win the game or some other reason, or because they just don't like you enough. Why would you prefer to have the ability to spend 10 minutes offering them stuff and being refused?

Puzzlinon said:

That's right. I expect you'd find Mansu-Mansa had Drama.

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that could be. But the main lesson here is alternative routes. Biggest ones: gunpowder, which requires education OR guilds, and writing, which requires priesthood OR animal husbandry OR pottery, monarchy, requiring monotheism OR priesthood, masonry requiring mining OR mysticism,.and aforementioned priesthood itself. All other alternative route situations have one obligatory and an option between two, so in that case you can be sure easier that someone cannot reach a tech if the civ doesn't have the obligatory tech.

No, I believe there is something fishy about AI tech.

Over the holiday weekend, I played a multiplayer lan game where there were 3 of us on one team and 6 other computer players. The difficulty was set to noble on a Huge map. As expected with the difficulty level, most of the AI kept up with us through the first two ages. Everyone was 100-300 points from us (with Asoka and Bismark in last place).

So we decide that its getting a little cramped and that we need to kill of some of the AI to aquire resources and more points to win for the Time Victory if we can't get the Conquest.

After the third age started, we began our conquest of the world. Each of us had several stacks of units which were longer than could be displayed in one column - so our military strength was huge. However, we noticed after we started our war with the first AI, that the dynamics of the rest of the AI changed.

Suddenly, Asoka and Bismark shot from 300 points behind to right up next to us in points. They too were cramped up and couldn't expand much more by the third age. When you talked to them and asked them what they thought of the other AI, they all gave a cautious or furious answer. Usually when this happens to me, I can't trade anything with the AI - especially techs. By the time we erradicated the 3rd AI, Bismark and Asoka were up 300 points and had gotten to the modern technology.

What I want to know is how does this happen? We were the ones going around and gaining territory and we had our research at 90 or 100% the whole time. Shouldn't our score have been the same as theirs, if not better? By the time it was just Bismark, Asoka, and a pathetic Issabella were left, Bismark and Asoka had Panzers, Attack Choppers and Marines. We were just getting into infantry! How do they trade about this technology when they still hate each other? How do they get better scores than us without gaining more tiles?

I just played a game. Standard Size, Continents. I found the Romans and they were faaar behind in techs, I was about 5 techs ahead of them. The Germans and Russians were about 5 techs ahead of me, and I was about in the middle.

A few turns later, after everyone discovered eachother with the invention of caravels, I go to talk to the Romans and they not only caught up, but were suddenly 5 techs ahead of me!

How does this seem to happen almost every game. It seems that the AI is super friendly with eachother behind my back, but when it comes to me, they do not give out techs for nothing, even when dealing with my strongest allies.

When I play games with no tech trading, I dominate the tech race, every time. Seems to me the AI is up to no good.

Aeson said:

Mansa has Monotheism and Metal Casting and will trade them. You could then trade the one you get (a turn later) to Mao, Roosevelt, and Peter.

From Peter, for the tech from Mansa, Polytheism, and/or Drama you could get CoL or Construction, which Mao and Roosevelt both need.

From Roosevelt, you can then get Currency, which Mao needs.

From Mao you get Calendar and Monarchy.

If you trade around, you should be able to get Monotheism, Construction, Currency, Calendar, and Monarchy at the least. You may be able to get Metal Casting, Code of Laws, Currency, Calendar, and Monarchy. Depending on how much cash the AI's have, you may even be able to get both Code of Laws and Construction, but it would be unlikely.

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I doubt that this would work. AT least, that very approach wouldn't have worked in CIV3, and I don't think the diplomacy part of the AI has become dumber with CIV4. In CIV3, when an AI contacted you to trade a tech and it actually got one from you, you could be VERY sure that when it was your turn, every AI able to pay something had acquired this very tech. So it was absolutely ESSENTIAL to trade away techs only in YOUR turn and then do all the tech trades in the same turn, otherwise the AIs would have done the merry tech spreading for you.

So, I'd be VERY surprised if that "one turn later" approach would work. Overall, the AI is less trade-friendly than in CIV3, and the restriction to alike goods makes it even harder to get a decent deal.

Yeah i'd turn off the tech trading. It's complete BS. They share techs like candies and ask for 'help me i need this tech' but won't give anything in return. It's ridiculous. If player has a lot of gold they will ask for tech trade that include a LOT of the player's gold even if my tech outweights his trade by 100 beakers.

that's why I am turned off by AI diplomacy in this game, just too much 'behind the back' nonsense trades between AI Civs who HATE each other. I'd rather focus on military tech to break them apart in my regular games.

As I am learning to play, (starting emporer now) I too so far find diplomacy, well, useless as far as tech trades go.

Creative suggestions to trade around for techs, Aeson, but in practice impratical as the aI won't trade or pay reasonable rates, even when friendly.

Me, I am slowly finding out IAS - Infinite Army Sleaze, is the way to go in this game. ICS is gone, IAS is king!

Grab a religion or two ASAP to keep the gold coffers up, and you can spam out the military with little cost. You only have to build around 2 or 3 good productive cities of your own...start building military asap...Get those troops moving on the road...and pillage pillage pillage....you can have waves of units, one or two turns behind each other as the years progress..and by pillaging, declaring war on your neighbors, one by one, the heck with reputation...you can get resources easier through war than through diplomacy anyway...

Take an occasional break to keep up with a few buildings here or there in your core cities only...but overall keep on warring.

If one chooses to play 'peaceful' that's cool...I was a big builder in Civ3, but why make it hard on oneself... To me it seems so far war is the easiest way to go once you learn how to do it....even easier than in Civ3 IMHO...since the aI will rarely come out to play, instead stays mostly holed up in their cities until too late.

Higher levels may be different...but it's a tossup if I ever get there...I'm happy where I am now.

JMHO

Don't forget you can get techs with great people.. although I dont really know what techs etc, i usually just huck them into a city =P

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Exactly! The AI could have got a Great Artist and used it to get Music. A good play because I think you get a free great person if you discover it first IIRC. Another Great Artist I think. That would be my guess.

Actually, you look like you're set up nicely for a UN victory here. Look at all those civs who will trade techs with you! Mansa Musa will trade ALL of them. That never happens with me, ever, on any difficulty level. I'm always nice to the AI's... I guess not nice enough, or something else is going on I don't understand.

Dairuka said:

As a side note. Damn you've fallen behind. Very badly. I think you should lower the difficulty setting so that you can at least compete.

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God you think thats bad! Ive played two games now and my last one I was second last, and this one Im also second last and miles behind the leaders to the point where there is no point in trying to attack them becuase I'll get massacred. But I like playing any game to its conclusion just to see how I improve in the future so I wont give up!

TheJediMaster said:

What I want to know is how does this happen? We were the ones going around and gaining territory and we had our research at 90 or 100% the whole time. Shouldn't our score have been the same as theirs, if not better? By the time it was just Bismark, Asoka, and a pathetic Issabella were left, Bismark and Asoka had Panzers, Attack Choppers and Marines. We were just getting into infantry! How do they trade about this technology when they still hate each other? How do they get better scores than us without gaining more tiles?

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simply by producing research in their cities instead of military units to conquer their neighbors.

DemonDeLuxe said:

So, I'd be VERY surprised if that "one turn later" approach would work. Overall, the AI is less trade-friendly than in CIV3, and the restriction to alike goods makes it even harder to get a decent deal.

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oldStatesman said:

Creative suggestions to trade around for techs, Aeson, but in practice impratical as the aI won't trade or pay reasonable rates, even when friendly.

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Tech trading still works in CIV. You have to be smarter about it than in Civ III, but I do X'fers all the time.

In this case the only AI which has techs that other AI's with something to trade don't have is Isabella. She can trade Monotheism to Peter for Currency, Construction, or Code of Laws or Roosevelt for Currency. She is very stingy in who she trades with and the beaker difference is pretty big. That the trade hasn't already happened means adding Drama to the mix wouldn't make it much more likely to happen. Isabella can't trade Monotheism for Drama even if she wanted to before the AI's have it though, and so this trade can be avoided completely by making sure to only trade Drama to the AI's when they already have Monotheism, or you are trading it to them as well. All the other AI fit into a simple ranking, where the rank below doesn't have anything the rank above needs.

(I'm ignoring cash for right now, because we don't have that information. You need to take it into account in the game though when possible. Ignoring Tokugawa because I can't see what he has. He's also one of the AI who hardly ever trades. Also ignoring potentially more advanced techs, as we can't see them. But the same principle still applies even to them. If the AI hasn't traded them, there's a reason for it. Giving them another tech to trade, being careful not to "match" a potential trade, won't make them suddenly decide to trade.)

Cost: (not in-game, but base cost)

Monotheism: 120
Drama: 300
Monarchy: 300
Calendar: 350
Construction: 350
Code of Laws: 350
Currency: 400
Metal Casting: 450
Music: 600

Player: Drama
Mansa: Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Code of Laws, Construction, Monotheism, Metal Casting, Music
Peter: Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Code of Laws, Construction
Roosevelt: Monarchy, Calendar, Currency
Mao Zedong: Monarchy, Calendar

Now Mansa has shown that he isn't going to trade Monotheism, Metal Casting, or Music to any of the others. They need it, but have nothing to offer in return. So trading Drama to Mansa will almost surely mean he won't trade it to the others either. This setup is really no different in that regard:

Drama (300) to Mansa for Monotheism (120)

Player (+120): Drama, Monotheism
Mansa (+300): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Code of Laws, Construction, Monotheism, Metal Casting, Music, Drama
Peter: Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Code of Laws, Construction
Roosevelt: Monarchy, Calendar, Currency
Mao Zedong: Monarchy, Calendar

Peter has Code of Laws and Construction that Roosevelt and Mao both need. He hasn't traded them it, because they have nothing to offer in return. Trading Peter Drama and Monotheism even makes it less likely he will trade with an AI, because the only tech he could has a tech to trade for is Monotheism:

Drama (300) + Monotheism (120) to Peter for Construction (350) or Code of Laws (350)

Player (+370): Drama, Monotheism, Construction
Mansa (+300): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Code of Laws, Construction, Monotheism, Metal Casting, Music, Drama
Peter (+320): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Code of Laws, Construction, Monotheism, Drama
Roosevelt: Monarchy, Calendar, Currency
Mao Zedong: Monarchy, Calendar

Roosevelt has Currency that Mao needs. Mao has nothing to offer in return. Mao still will have nothing to offer in return if it looks like this:

Construction (350) + Monotheism (120) to Roosevelt for Currency (400)

Player (+770): Drama, Monotheism, Construction, Currency
Mansa (+300): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Construction, Code of Laws, Monotheism, Metal Casting, Music, Drama
Peter (+320): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Construction, Code of Laws, Monotheism, Drama
Roosevelt (+370): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Monotheism, Construction
Mao Zedong: Monarchy, Calendar

Then it's just up to getting Monarchy and Calendar from Mao. Trading Monotheism to Mao also cuts out the last tech for tech AI trading possibility. (Isabella's Monotheism to Mao.) You won't even have to wait a turn to trade to Mao:

Drama (300) + Construction (350) + Monotheism (120) to Mao for Monarchy (300) + Calendar (350)

Player (+1420): Drama, Monotheism, Construction, Currency, Monarchy, Calendar
Mansa (+300): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Construction, Code of Laws, Monotheism, Metal Casting, Music, Drama
Peter (+320): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Construction, Code of Laws, Monotheism, Drama
Roosevelt (+370): Monarchy, Calendar, Currency, Monotheism, Construction
Mao Zedong (+770): Monarchy, Calendar, Monotheism, Construction, Drama

Totals:

Player: +1420
Mao: +770
Roosevelt: +370
Peter: +320
Mansa: +300
Isabella: +0

Every trade made favored the AI, but the player comes out 2x or better the AI overall. Isabella and probably Tokugawa are left out in the cold.

It's not guaranteed to work. If one of them researches a tech in the meantime, it could screw things up. (So notice when AI's aquire techs, as it gives you information as to when it's safest to trade.) If it's too high difficulty or relationships are bad you might not get the same prices. But tech trading is guaranteed to work better than not trading at all.

I don't have much trouble getting tech trading to pay off (ie. I come out with even or better beakers total) even on Deity, so it's definitely possible.

I like that, Aeson; it's agood work around (I'm still working on earning the best way to do it). Still, I have started playing my games with tech trading off for the same reason that others state here: once the AI cultures start interacting, they trade together with no problem, yet not with me. Asoka won via space race, coming in from last out of 10 because everone was falling over each other to give him techs. Yeesh.

Every trade made favored the AI, but the player comes out 2x or better the AI overall.

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That hits the nail squarely on the head.

So far, my experience has been that the AI will do exactly what people have been doing for all of time: trade only when it benefits them. As the player, the only way to pull ahead is to do exactly as Aeson has outlined, and find a way to play the other civs off each other to your net benefit.

And if you think about it, that's what's going on behind the scenes, too. It's not that one AI civ gives all its techs to another one that it hates. Instead, it trades them to an intermediary, who then goes on to trade them to the hated civ. Of course, as the player, you don't get to see each individual trade, you just see the net effect - so it seems as though each civ is giving away its tech for nothing.

But the spread is taking place across multiple trades and across multiple civs.

Control Group said:

That hits the nail squarely on the head.

So far, my experience has been that the AI will do exactly what people have been doing for all of time: trade only when it benefits them. As the player, the only way to pull ahead is to do exactly as Aeson has outlined, and find a way to play the other civs off each other to your net benefit.

And if you think about it, that's what's going on behind the scenes, too. It's not that one AI civ gives all its techs to another one that it hates. Instead, it trades them to an intermediary, who then goes on to trade them to the hated civ. Of course, as the player, you don't get to see each individual trade, you just see the net effect - so it seems as though each civ is giving away its tech for nothing.

But the spread is taking place across multiple trades and across multiple civs.

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That can't be. When we play, its cold war style. Each AI fears the other. They don't trade technology because there is enough space to spread out until the middle ages, so deplomacy isn't going to benift them, and therefore they don't do it. By then, meaning the middle ages, we've wasted 2-3 AI. And we look to sucker them into giving us all the tech they have before we finish off their last city.

So unless they, being the "middle man" which we erradicate, can hide what tech they have in the trade screen, they are far behind us. If the "super" AI has to get tech though a middleman, then that tech would appear in those middlemen.

That isn't the way it appears to us.

Kolyana said:

We're all pottering around with Riflemen (max), when I launch a war against the weakest AI ... small land, modest tech and so on (well, more accurately, he attacked me first and I swung things into his direction).

And then I saw it: Up popped an Infantry unit in one of his cities. No one else had these ... no one ... no one had the technology yet, but this guy conjured one up from somewhere (Noble difficulty).

I'm assuming I've missed something, but - like I said - I'm not convinced that the rules get bent in the AI's favor, sometimes too much.

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he drafted a citizen into it maybe ?