Civ4 - Game of Democracy - Announcement

So, what is your answer to the awkward situation ?

  • Total voters
    47
  • Poll closed .
Blkbird said:
You're running in circles. You're arguing *for* the switch to Flex under the assumption that it would prevail in this poll. That's a major flaw of logic.
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no, have you read my past 3 posts?
I am saying that if flexible wins we should start on Feb.1, not right away
 
Black_Hole said:
no, have you read my past 3 posts?
I am saying that if flexible wins we should start on Feb.1, not right away
Click to expand...

So, you are then voting to let the moderators make our decisions for us. Thanks for clearing that up.
 
I am an American. I am well versed in American Government. Please be aware of that, I am not basing my reasoning because I think it is the best, it's because it is the one I know the best. Ok, here I go.

It is past Jan 1st, when the Tri gov was to come to power. Therefore, the Tri gov is in power right now. I believe we should continue approching everything under this assumption.

If we want to move to Flex gov, we should have the power to do so. But until the Flex gov is ready to rule, the Tri gov should remain in place and continue to function. This happened to the American Gov. When they realized they needed to change it, they waited until they had the Constitution written and signed before they ended the Articles of Conf.

Even discounting their multiple votes, we voted AlphaWolf our President. Using the assumption that the Tri gov is still governing, AlphaWolf is our current President. We should probably think about recalling or impeaching him. Not saying he is guilty. He is not here doing his duty as President, so we need to start the process of replacing him. Or we could treat it as if he had a medical problem and just let the Secs rule until a new President is elected.

I know we could just delay the game start and re-do our entire government system. But I don't think it would be as much fun. We have a unique opprotunity to simmulate the struggle of creating a working democratic government in a real-time enviroment. In real life, countries can't delay their starts or turns while they set up their government. The rest of the Civs would be able to strart building themselves up while we hashed this out. I think it's ok if we don't have as many play sessions as normal, but I don't think we should completely stop. I feel it would make a more dynamic Democracy if the government was changed so much while the game was going on. Am I wrong, or are most Demo games set up with a set government that isn't changed the whole game. This could set a precedent for future games in which the citizens feel the constitution and government no longer fit into their current game.

I know I'm actually kind of excited to have to work through this hardship while still trying to build a new Civ. I also feel that many people who want to play cIV Demo would find this challenge fun.

Just my thoughts on the situation and what we should do with our government.
 
Black_Hole said:
no, have you read my past 3 posts?
I am saying that if flexible wins we should start on Feb.1, not right away
Click to expand...

Well you didn't exactly say "in case Flex wins this poll" (in post #65 of this thread), did you? You only said "we should start...", and it's anything but obvious that you meant "we should start ... in case Flex wins" - I interpreted it as "we should start ... because Flex should win".
 
Donovan Zoi said:
So, you are then voting to let the moderators make our decisions for us. Thanks for clearing that up.
Click to expand...
If we vote on something, its not the moderators making the decision for us
Any citizen could request that we scrap the entire CoL, they might be thought of as crazy however
The moderators have brought forward evidence that citizens do not have access to and asking us to vote over it... They aren't making the decision for us
 
GeorgeOP said:
I know we could just delay the game start and re-do our entire government system. But I don't think it would be as much fun. We have a unique opprotunity to simmulate the struggle of creating a working democratic government in a real-time enviroment. In real life, countries can't delay their starts or turns while they set up their government. The rest of the Civs would be able to strart building themselves up while we hashed this out. I think it's ok if we don't have as many play sessions as normal, but I don't think we should completely stop. I feel it would make a more dynamic Democracy if the government was changed so much while the game was going on. Am I wrong, or are most Demo games set up with a set government that isn't changed the whole game. This could set a precedent for future games in which the citizens feel the constitution and government no longer fit into their current game.
Click to expand...

Wonderful and excellent arguments. :goodjob:
 
Black_Hole said:
If we vote on something, its not the moderators making the decision for us
Any citizen could request that we scrap the entire CoL, they might be thought of as crazy however
The moderators have brought forward evidence that citizens do not have access to and asking us to vote over it... They aren't making the decision for us
Click to expand...

OK, let me put it another way. What binding does this poll have over our current law? All it is asking is an informal question without regard to how it is carried out. It gives us no chance to resolve this crisis ourselves, but instead gives us a quick fix to scrap everything we have done to this point. We almost unanimously ratified this amendment, so I am appalled to see so many leaping toward the easy way out to get rid of it based on this evidence.
 
Everyone, please read this post in its entirety. It explains our situation better than I ever could:

GeorgeOP said:
I am an American. I am well versed in American Government. Please be aware of that, I am not basing my reasoning because I think it is the best, it's because it is the one I know the best. Ok, here I go.

It is past Jan 1st, when the Tri gov was to come to power. Therefore, the Tri gov is in power right now. I believe we should continue approching everything under this assumption.

If we want to move to Flex gov, we should have the power to do so. But until the Flex gov is ready to rule, the Tri gov should remain in place and continue to function. This happened to the American Gov. When they realized they needed to change it, they waited until they had the Constitution written and signed before they ended the Articles of Conf.

Even discounting their multiple votes, we voted AlphaWolf our President. Using the assumption that the Tri gov is still governing, AlphaWolf is our current President. We should probably think about recalling or impeaching him. Not saying he is guilty. He is not here doing his duty as President, so we need to start the process of replacing him. Or we could treat it as if he had a medical problem and just let the Secs rule until a new President is elected.

I know we could just delay the game start and re-do our entire government system. But I don't think it would be as much fun. We have a unique opprotunity to simmulate the struggle of creating a working democratic government in a real-time enviroment. In real life, countries can't delay their starts or turns while they set up their government. The rest of the Civs would be able to strart building themselves up while we hashed this out. I think it's ok if we don't have as many play sessions as normal, but I don't think we should completely stop. I feel it would make a more dynamic Democracy if the government was changed so much while the game was going on. Am I wrong, or are most Demo games set up with a set government that isn't changed the whole game. This could set a precedent for future games in which the citizens feel the constitution and government no longer fit into their current game.

I know I'm actually kind of excited to have to work through this hardship while still trying to build a new Civ. I also feel that many people who want to play cIV Demo would find this challenge fun.

Just my thoughts on the situation and what we should do with our government.
Click to expand...

Excellent post, GeorgeOP! :goodjob:
 
Black_Hole said:
Any citizen could request that we scrap the entire CoL, they might be thought of as crazy however
Click to expand...

"Scraping the entire CoL", as you put it, would be simply illegal - even if *all* citizens votes for it. The only way to do that would be to amend the Constitution first - which, think of it, is far more efficient than amend the whole CoL itself.

So, legally, this is poll here cannot be binding. It's just an informational decision about the coming *process*.

If the Flex wins (which I hope not), I suggest the following procedure:

1. Amend our Constitution to allow complete replacement of CoL under certain circumstances, at the same time finetune the Flex;
2. Replace the CoL in accordance with the new Constitutional Amendment;
3. Start election process.
 
Donovan Zoi said:
OK, let me put it another way. What binding does this poll have over our current law? All it is asking is an informal question without regard to how it is carried out. It gives us no chance to resolve this crisis ourselves, but instead gives us a quick fix to scrap everything we have done to this point. We almost unanimously ratified this amendment, so I am appalled to see so many leaping toward the easy way out to get rid of it based on this evidence.
Click to expand...
I agree here, this poll is informational, however if Flexible wins, we should begin work on the flexible government, and then amend the CoL in an official poll

What I mean by scrapping is that the entire CoL gets replaced in a single amendment
 
Black_Hole said:
I agree here, this poll is informational, however if Flexible wins, we should begin work on the flexible government, and then amend the CoL in an official poll

What I mean by scrapping is that the entire CoL gets replaced in a single amendment
Click to expand...

Yes, but it won't be seen as informational by our mods --- it will be seen as a vote to negate this entire term and start February 1st, like you said. I am telling you how I feel it should be seen as under our current rule of law. As far as I am concerned this term is very much alive, so a vote for Flexible will merely tear down what could be an awesome way to start the game.

A vote for Flexible here is a vote against our own governance, and a vote to cop out of our responsibility as citizens. I plan to play this scenario out as if we are still under the Triumvirate ruleset until I am forced not to do so by those who can't see this for themselves.
 
Black_Hole said:
I agree here, this poll is informational, however if Flexible wins, we should begin work on the flexible government, and then amend the CoL in an official poll
Click to expand...

As I noted in my post above, it would be much more efficient (and much cleaner, too) to amend the Constitution to allow a "complete scraping" of the CoL.
 
Donovan Zoi said:
Yes, but it won't be seen as informational by our mods --- it will be seen as a vote to negate this entire term and start February 1st, like you said. I am telling you how I feel it should be seen as under our current rule of law. As far as I am concerned this term is very much alive, so a vote for Flexible will merely tear down what could be an awesome way to start the game.

A vote for Flexible here is a vote against our own governance, and a vote to cop out of our responsibility as citizens. I plan to play this scenario out as if we are still under the Triumvirate ruleset until I am forced not to do so by those who can't see this for themselves.
Click to expand...
if this wasn't meant to be informaitional, then I apologize... I was under the understanding, this would replace the informational polls called "Which government should we work on?"
 
I also like to go on record to point out that our currently elected Judiciary Branch cannot be declared void as it is not defined by the CoL (Tri), but by the Constitution itself (Article F). The CoL only detailed the specs of the Constitution. So even if we switch to Flex, the three members of the Judiciary Branch must stay in their respective positions.

Given the above, I'm requesting a Judiciary Review (as defined in Constitution F.2 and F.4.a) of the current situation.
 
Blkbird said:
As I noted in my post above, it would be much more efficient (and much cleaner, too) to amend the Constitution to allow a "complete scraping" of the CoL.
Click to expand...
theres no need, we can just amend the entire CoL as per the current amendment article... It would be harder to amend the Constitution anyway...
 
Black_Hole said:
if this wasn't meant to be informaitional, then I apologize... I was under the understanding, this would replace the informational polls called "Which government should we work on?"
Click to expand...

If we look at this poll as a "starting over" point, then we are setting ourselves back for weeks. I would like our current government to contiinue to function while this dilemma unfolds.

If we vote for Flexible, then we vote to start over from that fateful poll three weeks ago. As if nothing ever happened; as if no law was ever ratified; as if no one was ever elected. Are you sure that is what you want?
 
Black_Hole said:
theres no need, we can just amend the entire CoL as per the current amendment article... It would be harder to amend the Constitution anyway...
Click to expand...

No, absolutely not!

Have you read the current CoL, specificly the Section 10 I quote above? That's a much more complicated procedure than what's required to amend the Consitution, which is defined in the Constitution itself:

Article G, 2. The Constitution may be amended by a 60% majority of votes cast in a public poll which shall be open for no fewer than 4 days.

a. A lower form of law may specify a procedure which must be followed to amend the Constitution.
Click to expand...

Our current CoL doesn't specify any further procedure regarding the amendment of Constitution, so amending the Constitution is far simpler than following the CoL 10.B.I-V (both require 60% of votes, btw).

I start to really question your ability as a veteran of the judiciary branch...
 
Blkbird said:
No, absolutely not!

Have you read the current CoL, specificly the Section 10 I quote above? That's a much more complicated procedure than what's required to amend the Consitution, which is defined in the Constitution itself:



Our current CoL doesn't specify any further procedure regarding the amendment of Constitution, so amending the Constitution is far simpler than following the CoL 10.B.I-V (both require 60% of votes, btw).

I start to really question your ability as a veteran of the judiciary branch...
Click to expand...
Your own arguments go against you!
They are both the same difficulty, correct?
So why have to amend the constitution, to amend the CoL? That means 2 amendment polls, instead of one... Which is more complicated in my opinon, maybe you think differently?
 
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