How to be religiously tolerant?

Sahkuhnder · Mar 29, 2006

Eran of Arcadia said:
The hostility and violence that we got (during the 1830s and 1840s) had nothing to do with proselyting; in that era, it was considered perfectly normal for a religion to evangelize.

Agreed. Totally different thing than I'm talking about.

Eran of Arcadia said:
And the hostility that is generated as a result of our activities does not come from us but from people who choose to get angry when we talk to them. I hardly think that it is our fault if someone decides to yell at us and slam a door in our face. Those who do that are generally not the sort to join our church anyways.

Bold by me.

Yes, it is often your fault. You cause the action, but don't accept the consequence of your action.

It the same reason door-to-door salesmen of products are disliked, not because people may not want or need what they are selling, but because they don't like to be disturbed. Even if I did need a vacuum for example I would never buy one from someone that simply knocked unannounced on my door and I would dislike the salesman specifically due to his action of disturbing my family.

Some of the hostility you generate does come directly from your actions, and thus is your fault. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You may pretend otherwise and act innocent, but when you just randomly knock on doors you are disturbing people against their will and violating their privacy.

I could very well hold a grudge and say "those @#$%^&*" you-know-whats!" and hate you not because your message was objectionable, but simply because you (to me) rudely violated my privacy by knocking, unsolicited, on the door of my home and disrupted my personal affairs.

Sometime later on I could pass you on the street and without you even speaking to me I could retaliate with verbal abuse against you. You may assume it was because of your beliefs, but in this case that wouldn't be correct, it would be because of your earlier methods and actions.

When you offend people then it is unreasonable to complain when they act with hostility back in return, and the hostility may be generated directly by your actions, not your beliefs.

Eran of Arcadia · Mar 29, 2006

sahkuhnder said:
Yes, it is often your fault. You cause the action, but don't accept the consequence of your action.

It the same reason door-to-door salesmen of products are disliked, not because people may not want or need what they are selling, but because they don't like to be disturbed. Even if I did need a vacuum for example I would never buy one from someone that simply knocked unannounced on my door and I would dislike the salesman specifically due to his action of disturbing my family.

Some of the hostility you generate does come directly from your actions, and thus is your fault. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You may pretend otherwise and act innocent, but when you just randomly knock on doors you are disturbing people against their will and violating their privacy.

I could very well hold a grudge and say "those @#$%^&*" you-know-whats!" and hate you not because your message was objectionable, but simply because you (to me) rudely violated my privacy by knocking, unsolicited, on the door of my home and disrupted my personal affairs.

Sometime later on I could pass you on the street and without you even speaking to me I could retaliate with verbal abuse against you. You may assume it was because of your beliefs, but in this case that wouldn't be correct, it would be because of your earlier methods and actions.

When you offend people then it is unreasonable to complain when they act with hostility back in return, and the hostility may be generated directly by your actions, not your beliefs.

I disagree. We are not offending people at all. We always make a great effort to be respectful of them and their beliefs, and those who react with anger cannot really blame us. We are not seriously invading anyone's privacy or disrupting their personal affairs. If you are so occupied that you cannot come to the door, then don't come to the door. We are used to people doing that. If you do, and you don't want to listen to us, it takes 30 seconds at most to get rid of us. Not disruptive at all. I am not saying that we put up a big fuss if someone yells at us, but I am saying that they have the ultimate responsibility for being rude to a stranger when it was unwarranted.

odintheking · Mar 29, 2006

Before any of you hardcore Christians out there say I "don't worship God right" or what I'm saying is "blasphemy", I'd like to tell you I'm possibly the most devout person you may ever come in contact with, so I don't want anyone to get on their religious high-horse and hiss and boo at me,

. Now that that's out of the way, I can finally say what I think.
God is everything. We Jews/Christians/Muslims percieve him as a singular being because thatis what we were raised to believe, and what our culture percieves God as. We can see him as benevolent or wrathful, call Him different names, and worship him in different ways. There are polytheistic religions, and they percieve God as many "false" gods, some would say, because again, that's how they percieve Him. Even aetheists experience some level of spirituality, and morality, and that is their way of percieving God. Everyone experiences morality and love, and isn't that what God essentially is? Some people may deny they feel love or spirituality, but everyone has a soul, even if it is misguided. So the only way to be religiously tolerant is to not get hung up on the details, fighting with other people of different religions. In the end, if we do what is right, we will all be enlightened about the truth of life in the end. Well, that's what I believe.

Irish Caesar · Mar 29, 2006

sahkuhnder said:
Agreed. Totally different thing than I'm talking about.

Bold by me.

Yes, it is often your fault. You cause the action, but don't accept the consequence of your action.

It the same reason door-to-door salesmen of products are disliked, not because people may not want or need what they are selling, but because they don't like to be disturbed. Even if I did need a vacuum for example I would never buy one from someone that simply knocked unannounced on my door and I would dislike the salesman specifically due to his action of disturbing my family.

Some of the hostility you generate does come directly from your actions, and thus is your fault. That's what I'm trying to tell you. You may pretend otherwise and act innocent, but when you just randomly knock on doors you are disturbing people against their will and violating their privacy.

I could very well hold a grudge and say "those @#$%^&*" you-know-whats!" and hate you not because your message was objectionable, but simply because you (to me) rudely violated my privacy by knocking, unsolicited, on the door of my home and disrupted my personal affairs.

Sometime later on I could pass you on the street and without you even speaking to me I could retaliate with verbal abuse against you. You may assume it was because of your beliefs, but in this case that wouldn't be correct, it would be because of your earlier methods and actions.

When you offend people then it is unreasonable to complain when they act with hostility back in return, and the hostility may be generated directly by your actions, not your beliefs.

The solution is quite simple.

Don't answer your door if you don't want to be bothered.

Sahkuhnder · Mar 29, 2006

Irish Caesar said:
The solution is quite simple.

Don't answer your door if you don't want to be bothered.

I'm still distubed. I work nights and have been woke up by religious people knocking on the door to my home.

Eran of Arcadia said:
I disagree. We are not offending people at all.

You're not listening.

I am disturbed. I am people. I am not unique in this viewpoint. You knock unannoced on my door, you are offending me. I blame you, because it is your fault you disturbed me, not my fault for being peacefully in my own home with my door closed.

Sorry, but I don't know how to say it much more simple than that.

Eran of Arcadia · Mar 29, 2006

sahkuhnder said:
You're not listening.

I am disturbed. I am people. I am not unique in this viewpoint. You knock unannoced on my door, you are offending me.

Sorry, but I don't know how to say it much more simple than that.

No, we are using the word 'offended' in different ways. I am not saying that people don't become offended when we show up, I am saying that being offended is not a natural result of anything we do, but essentially a choice that people make to be offended. I assume that you are not claiming to be 'offended' when you are woken up, just disturbed or bothered. Sorry about that, but most people are awake or not at home when we knock, and that there are a lot of less polite people out knocking doors at the same time. It is a fact that sometimes people do things that annoy us, in the course of doing something that they think is right.

Irish Caesar · Mar 29, 2006

sahkuhnder said:
I'm still distubed. I work nights and have been woke up by religious people knocking on the door to my home.

If you read Eran's posts, you would see that he does not knock loud enough to wake people up; you know, courtesy. The fact that some people do not do that is no reason to take out your frustration on him.

willemvanoranje · Mar 29, 2006

Eran of Arcadia said:
How does that figure? I can talk to people about my religion without being intolerant of theirs.

Of course you can! That is not what is meant by "minding your own business". You can talk to others about it, it starts getting doubtful when you try to convince them your religion is better, and it's bad when you start to bash their religious believes and standards.

Eran of Arcadia · Mar 29, 2006

willemvanoranje said:
Of course you can! That is not what is meant by "minding your own business". You can talk to others about it, it starts getting doubtful when you try to convince them your religion is better, and it's bad when you start to bash their religious believes and standards.

I try to convince them that my religion is the best, because I believe that it is. I also try to explain why I think that. But I never start bashing their beliefs or standards. They tell the missionaries that as part of training - not only is it impolite, it is less effective.

Bluemofia · Mar 29, 2006

How I be religiously tollerant:

Plan A: Avoid the topic of religion.
Plan B: Ignore it if possible if brought up.
Plan C: Respond as neutral as humanly possible.

willemvanoranje · Mar 29, 2006

Eran of Arcadia said:
I try to convince them that my religion is the best, because I believe that it is. I also try to explain why I think that. But I never start bashing their beliefs or standards. They tell the missionaries that as part of training - not only is it impolite, it is less effective.

Well, I tend to think you're in the good part.. Of course you can try to convince them by telling about your religion, and telling what you like so much about it. You have to know when to stop though; if a person doesn't want to be converted, and doesn't want to hear it either just to learn about it, you gotta stop of course.

To me however, you seem to be tolerant.

Eran of Arcadia · Mar 29, 2006

Bluemofia said:
How I be religiously tollerant:

Plan A: Avoid the topic of religion.
Plan B: Ignore it if possible if brought up.
Plan C: Respond as neutral as humanly possible.

That is certainly the surest way to avoid being religiously intolerant. But I think that one can discuss religion without being intolerant.

willemvanoranje said:
Well, I tend to think you're in the good part.. Of course you can try to convince them by telling about your religion, and telling what you like so much about it. You have to know when to stop though; if a person doesn't want to be converted, and doesn't want to hear it either just to learn about it, you gotta stop of course.

To me however, you seem to be tolerant.

That's the key. We would never criticize someone's religion, as it's intolerant. If they choose not to listen to us, that's their decision. It helps that there is always someone who will listen to us, so we don't need to pester those who won't.

Sahkuhnder · Mar 29, 2006

Eran of Arcadia said:
No, we are using the word 'offended' in different ways. I am not saying that people don't become offended when we show up, I am saying that being offended is not a natural result of anything we do. I assume that you are not claiming to be 'offended' when you are woken up, just disturbed or bothered.

Natual result? You knock on my door and disturb me, and as a result of your action I am: offended/disturbed/bothered/annoyed/displeased/antagonized/resentful/maddened/indignant/provoked and a few dozen more similarly descriptive words. And once again not because of anything to do with your message, but strictly and directly because of your disruptive action causing the violation of my privacy.

Being the direct cause of these feelings is not IMHO practicing tolerance of others or respect of their privacy and family time.

Do you really think people like being disturbed?

Eran of Arcadia · Mar 29, 2006

sahkuhnder said:
Natual result? You knock on my door and disturb me, and as a result of your action I am: offended/disturbed/bothered/annoyed/displeased/antagonized/resentful/maddened/indignant/provoked and a few dozen more similarly descriptive words. And once again not because of anything to do with your message, but strictly and directly because of your disruptive action causing the violation of my privacy.

Being the direct cause of these feelings is not IMHO practicing tolerance of others or respect of their privacy and family time.

Do you really think people like being disturbed?

Does everything that requires your attention for 30 seconds, if you choose to respond to it instead of ignoring it, have that effect? Do you get upset because of wrong numbers, or when a coworker gets you involved in a pointless conversation? Not to sound like a jerk, but it seems like you tend to overreact to what you seem as invasions of your privacy, no matter what they are.

Sahkuhnder · Mar 29, 2006

Irish Caesar said:
If you read Eran's posts, you would see that he does not knock loud enough to wake people up; you know, courtesy. The fact that some people do not do that is no reason to take out your frustration on him.

Bold by me.

How does he know that? My daughter may be asleep on the couch by the front door, and he just woke her up. Do you think I would go running to chase him and let him know?

If someone knocks on the door my kids come and wake me (as they should because it might be something important).

Saying a statement like that would only be an attempt at self-justification to assure yourself that your questionable action really was O.K.

Sahkuhnder · Mar 29, 2006

Eran of Arcadia said:
Does everything that requires your attention for 30 seconds, if you choose to respond to it instead of ignoring it, have that effect? Do you get upset because of wrong numbers, or when a coworker gets you involved in a pointless conversation? Not to sound like a jerk, but it seems like you tend to overreact to what you seem as invasions of your privacy, no matter what they are.

If I'm deep asleep then getting my attention for 30 seconds is huge.

I have voicemail and turn off my phone while sleeping.

Who I wish to be woke up by is my decision to make for myself, not yours to forcefully make for me, not at least if you want to claim tolerance of others and not generate hostility due to your actions.

Eran of Arcadia · Mar 29, 2006

sahkuhnder said:
Bold by me.

How does he know that? My daughter may be asleep on the couch by the front door, and he just woke her up. Do you think I would go running to chase him and let him know?

If someone knocks on the door my kids come and wake me (as they should because it might be something important).

Saying a statement like that would only be an attempt at self-justification to assure yourself that your questionable action really was O.K.

Whatever. I see that we are not going to come to an agreement on this. But as a word of advice, Mormon missionaries are very distinctive looking. Might you try suggesting that if she sees two young men in shirts and ties at the door, carrying books and wearing black nametags, that she suggest they come another time? (By which I mean that they move on.)

Like I said, few people are in your position. We genuinely feel that bothering the few people who are in your circumstances and can't seem to come to a solution is worth it. Really, though, I am sure that you can come up with a solution.

Irish Caesar · Mar 29, 2006

sahkuhnder said:
If someone knocks on the door my kids come and wake me (as they should because it might be something important)

Who important knocks at your door? If it was "important," wouldn't they normally have arranged to meet you or something?

Eran of Arcadia · Mar 29, 2006

@sahkuhnder:

Since you seem to be plagued by people at your door, I would offer some advice. It may seem unfair that you are the one who has to take initiative, but this should work for everyone, not just Mormons.

A sign saying 'no soliciting' or 'no proselytizing' won't work. People will just convince themselves that it doesn't apply to them. Maybe a sign along the lines of 'If it's important, call me' combined with a doorbell that won't wake you up. Then tell your kids that if it's not the police, and you haven't made prior arrangements with this person, it's probably not important enough to wake you up.

Sahkuhnder · Mar 29, 2006

Eran of Arcadia said:
Whatever. I see that we are not going to come to an agreement on this. But as a word of advice, Mormon missionaries are very distinctive looking. Might you try suggesting that if she sees two young men in shirts and ties at the door, carrying books and wearing black nametags, that she suggest they come another time? (By which I mean that they move on.)

Like I said, few people are in your position. We genuinely feel that bothering the few people who are in your circumstances and can't seem to come to a solution is worth it. Really, though, I am sure that you can come up with a solution.

I don't mean to sound hostile to mormon missionaries and have tried very hard to separate your message from your actions in these discussions. All my statements apply to anyone that distubs families while in their homes.

Oddly enough when I was a kid and had a POS car I broke down in the rain on a lonely stretch of freeway and as I started walking a carload of mormon missionaries picked me up and gave me a ride to the next exit. I was very impressed and still am grateful, so to me at least I feel I still owe you one good deed.

Sadly, this would be the exact opposite of what we have been discussing. Giving me a ride generated good will and showed you practice what you preach. Disturbing my family, well...

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