Best Leaders: A Democratic Method

NB. I've already posted this thread in the strategy and tips forum, but it hasn't got many responses and I've come to the conclusion that it's probably in the wrong forum really. This is a copy. I hope admin don't mind, delete the old one if you feel it nessessary.


This is an attempt by myself at compiling together the general view of whom are the best leaders and who are the worst.

The basic idea is, I need all of you to put each leader into tiers and post here. The rules are:
-There must be 6 tiers. Tier 1 is top tier (best), whilst tier 6 is bottom tier (worst).
-Each tier must have 6 leaders in it (6 tiers x 6 leaders= 36 leaders total).
-Each list made must be clear and readable. Unclear list won't be counted.
-Those who do not have warlords are discouraged from voting.
-Those who do not have warlords but really really want to vote may do so but must still class every one of the 36 leaders based on educated estimates from these forums. These people must state that they don' have warlords.

I will see how well this goes. If I don't get enough responses I'll allow the thread to die quietly.

Assuming the thread gets a positive response results will be collected just before I go on holiday in about 2 weeks time.

Results will be put together on a points basis.
Top tier leaders get 6 points,
2nd tier leaders get 5 points,
3rd tier leaders get 4 points,
etc etc
Bottom tier leaders recieve one point.

Get voting and thanks.

Too lazy to list 36 leaders...
Augusts Ceaser is number 1, Luis XIV is number 2.
Creative ftw.

Here it goes. Note that this is based on limited play experience with Warlords and a preference for domination style games.

Tier 1
Julius Caesar - Still the best, though I like expansive better w/ organized.
Mehmed II - My favorite trait combo and great UU/UB.
Gandhi - Saladin's old traits w/ fast worker will be very powerful.
Elizabeth
Cyrus - Early game monster. Massively improved.
Hannibal

Tier 2
Wang Kon
Augustus - Could easily be tier 1 because of praets.
Napolean - Most improved leader. Should be a military powerhouse now.
Victoria
Mansa Musa
Huayna Capac - Industrious is weak, but Quecha still gets free promo. Great UB (Basically provides creative trait for free).

Tier 3
Shaka
Ragnar
Asoka
Hatshepsut - Only because of war chariots.
Frederick - bad UU, but his trait combo is one of the best.
Genghis Khan - UB gels with UU, good warmonger (Liked him much better before).

Tier 4
Peter - would be higher, but UB is awful and cossacks are less useful now.
Catherine - Great leader on small maps.
Tokugawa - Severely downgraded. Should be good for building powerful troops.
Brennus - Don't like the UU.
Isabella
Alexander - Good traits but kind of a one trick pony.

Tier 5
Roosevelt - Awful UU, bad trait synergy although organized is still useful.
Montezuma - Probably should be higher, but I don't like his trait combo.
Kublai Khan - Probably the best leader in this tier.
Churchill - Not bad, but this trait combo just doesn't appeal to me.
Ramesses II - War chariots save him from the bottom tier.
Washington - Yikes, did this guy get the axe or what?

Tier 6
Saladin - Most downgraded leader. Used to be a solid tier 1.
Mao Zedong - Also used to be one of my favorties, now he sucks.
Bismark - Awful UU and traits. Has always been one of my least favorite leaders.
Stalin - It is fitting that he is so bad.
Qin Shi Huang - Was much better in vanilla. Traits have some synergy at least.
Louis XIV - Worst leader in the game.

I think you'll find that choosing the best leader depends on so many factors that it's impossible to name the best. It's impossible to even name those in the top tier. This is because we all have different playing styles, we all play with different settings and we play on different difficulties. It's also depends on wheather you play single or multiplayer..
Evidence:

Janook said:

Too lazy to list 36 leaders...
Augusts Ceaser is number 1, Luis XIV is number 2.
Creative ftw.

Click to expand...

PaganPaulWhisky said:

Louis XIV - Worst leader in the game.

Click to expand...

That's one of the great things about Civilization: There is no right answer to this question.

However, Even with this being the case, I will throw in my 2 cents.
Tier 1.
Monte
Cyrus
Mansa
Ceaser
Liz
Hannibal



All the middle tiers are too mish-mashed to determine

Tier 6
Louis
Brennus
Stalin
Peter
Washington
Bismark

Acceptable_Loss said:

I think you'll find that choosing the best leader depends on so many factors that it's impossible to name the best. It's impossible to even name those in the top tier. This is because we all have different playing styles, we all play with different settings and we play on different difficulties. It's also depends on wheather you play single or multiplayer..
Evidence:






That's one of the great things about Civilization: There is no right answer to this question.

However, Even with this being the case, I will throw in my 2 cents.
Tier 1.
Monte
Cyrus
Mansa
Ceaser
Liz
Hannibal



All the middle tiers are too mish-mashed to determine

Tier 6
Louis
Brennus
Stalin
Peter
Washington
Bismark

Click to expand...

there are more correct and less correct answers. just a lot of ppl are wrong.

Tier 1
Hannibal
Mansa Musa
Cyrus
Julius Caesar
Alexander
Ragnar

Tier 2
Huayna Capac
Elizabeth
Wang Kon
Churchill
Augustus Caesar
Napoleon

Tier 3
Gandhi
Victoria
Ramasses
Genghis
Mehmed
Shaka

Tier 4
Frederick
Tokugawa
Catherine
Peter
Montezuma
Qin Shi Huang

Tier 5
Saladin
Stalin
Isabella
Brennus
Asoka
Hatsheput

Tier 6
Washington
Roosevelt
Louis
Kublai Khan
Mao Zedong
Bismark

Tier 1
Catherine of Russia
Cyrus of Persia
Victoria of England
Montezuma of Mexico
Elizabeth of England
Hannibal of Carthage

Tier 2
Ramesses of Egypt
Wang Kon of Korea
Caesar of Rome
Stalin of Russia
Hatshepsut of Egypt
Genghis Khan of Mongolia

Tier 3
Qin Shi Huang of China
Roosevelt of America
Ragnar of Scandinavia
Kublai Khan of Mongolia
Tokugawa of Japan
Alexander of Greece

Tier 4
Augustus of Rome
Washington of America
Gandhi of India
Frederick of Germany
Saladin of Arabia
Mehmed II of Turkey

Tier 5
Churchill of England
Asoka of India
Louis XIV of France
Otto Bismarck of Germany
Saladin of Arabia
Mansa Musa of Mali

Tier 6
Peter of Russia
Shaka of Zululand
Isabella of Spain
Napoleon of France
Mao Zedong of China
Brennus of Celtia

WTH "Louis XIV - Worst leader in the game."

MoggyDave - it would be interesting if you (or someone else) averaged everyone's preferences once you have sufficient data

Tier 1
Ragnar
Cyrus
Elizabeth
Huayna Capac
Hannibal
Gandhi

Tier 2
Victoria
Julius Caesar
Augustus Caesar
Wang Kon
Mansa Musa
Montezuma

Tier 3
Genghis Khan
Stalin
Shaka
Mehmed II
Kublai Khan
Rameses II

Tier 4
Asoka
Tokugawa
Louis XIV
Napoleon
Alexander
Frederick

Tier 5
Winston Churchill
Catherine
Hatshepshut
Isabella
Washington
Brennus

Tier 6
Peter
Saladin
Qin Shi Huang
Bismarck
Mao Zedong
Roosevelt

Hmmmmmmmm... I'm not sure about tier 2, 3, 4, or 5...
Tier 1
Hatsheptut
Cathrine
Ghandi
Gengis Khan
Roosevelt
Mehmed 3 or 2? (Cool turban. Period.)

Tier 6

Elizabeth
Victoria
Washington
Tokowuga
Isabella
Montezuma

thx can be ery useful stuff.

Tier 1:
Elizabeth
Hannibal
Julius Ceasar
Mehmed II
Augustus Ceasar
Cyrus
Tier 2:
Frederick II
Ragnar
Tokugawa
Asoka
Qin shi huang
Churchill
Tier 3:
Mansa Musa
Bismarck
Peter
Victoria
Ghandi
Ghengis Khan
Tier 4
Ramses the Great
Stalin
Shaka
Louis XIV
Napoleon
Wang Kon
Tier 5:
Brennus
Saladin
Mao Zedong
Roosevelt
Washington
Hapshetsut
Tier 6:
Montezuma
Isabella
Catherine
Kublai Khan
Huyana Capac (keeps beating me at space race )
Alexander

Teir 1- Napoleon, Mehmed II, Churchill, Brennus, Stalin and Cyrus

Teir 2- Shaka, Peter, Julius Caesar, Augustus Caesar, Hannibal and Louis The 14th

Teir 3- Huayna Capac , Franklin D. Roosevelt, Mao Zedong, Alexander, Ramesses II ,Frederick

Teir 4- Tokugawa , Genghis Khan, Kublai Khan, Saladin, Catherine and George Washington

Teir 5- Montezuma, Bismarck, Qin Shi Huang, Ghandi, Mansa Musa and Ragnar

Teir 6- Asoka , Isabella, Elizabeth , Victoria , Wang Kon and Hatshepsut

Okay, here is my crack at it. I haven't been able to play with everyone yet, so a lot of mine is based off of how the AI plays with the leader.

Tier 1:
Huayna Cupac: Undoubtedly the best, not just for players, but AI to.
Hannibal: He is in EVERY game I play at random, and he is always winning.
Augustus: Anyone can win with this guy.
Julius: Anyone can win with this guy.
Elizabeth: Perfect for the CE, I think. Cottages and an excellent GP Farm.
Mansa Muse: Don't like to play with him, but he techs like a mad man.

Tier 2:
Victoria: Great traits, my second highest score.
Churchill: My favorite person of all time, I was disappointed he has protective but I just played my first game with him ever and more than doubled my highest score ever.
Ramesses II: Great UU, good traits.
Ghandi: Always leading in tech. But always an easy target.
Asoke: Same as Ghandi.
Napoleon: Great traits, shafted on the UU (I expect him to be much better in BTS). I need to play with this guy, I think he and Ragnar are the only Aggressive AI's that can compete.

Tier 3:
Hatshepsut: Pretty average in general. Gets the nod for the UU and traits.
Alexander: My first prince win, ever. Great UB and Good UU. I like Philosophical even though I hardly ever go into a game planning to use it.
Mehmed II: Always seems to be a target next to me. Not much to say about him but I like his traits decently enough.
Frederick: I like the Panzer, though it comes late.
Wang Kon: Financial is overpowered and Hwachas are just nastiness. He would be higher if it weren't for Protective.
Louis XIV: Don't have much to say for him. Im iffy.

Tier 4:
Ragnar: Has proven able to come back from behind with Financial. Disappointed with the UU and UB.
Brennus: Great traits, CRUDDY UU and UB. And I just...for some reason...don't like him.
Stalin: My boy, I love Soviet history. I always thought Industrial would be my favorite trait but I find it disappointing. A tech lead will get you the wonders you really need.
Cyrus: WHAT!? Cyrus fourth! I played a few games with him and couldn't get him down for some reason. No dice, Persia.
Isabella: Psycho is always scary to be around, but never goes any where.
Peter: Currently playing with him. Mixed feelings right now but I like him enough for a tier 3 promotion. We'll see.

Tier 5:
Shaka: Always behind.
Washington: Ah...America...My love. Why dost thou suckest so? Anyway, I have a hard time putting a Charismatic leader below 3, but man does the mall and Navy SEALs suck so bad.
Mao: Nothing to impress me with.
Saladin: Hate to attack him, just found that out. But garbage compared to Vanilla.
Qin Shi Huang: Nothing to impress me with.
Bismarck: Again, Industrial is disappointing. I like Frederick better.

Tier 6:
Montezuma: Always in the stone age. I like Jags in a thick jungle though.
Genghis Khan: Keshiks aren't what they should be. I really like Genghis in history, so Id like to see him improved. UB is bush league to.
Kublai Khan: Pretty much the same as Genghis.
Roosevelt: Ah, my favorite leader, right there with Churchill. So disappointing.
Catherine: My most played leader in Vanilla, she really got hit with the nerf launcher.
Tokugawa: Reminds me of The Last Samurai, only its more like clubmen, instead of Samurai, versus the Mobile Infantry in Starship Troopers.

There it is, to the best of my ability. I really think it comes down to traits for the most part. Charismatic is really growing on me, Financial is ridiculous, Philosophical and Spiritual are always nice, even Expansive is showing me some things. I like this post, hope more people do it.

Tier 1:
Julius Caesar - Prateorians.
Augustus Caesar - Praetorians.
Elizabeth I - Phi/Fin is an awesome combination
Hannibal - Financial/Charismatic is a powerful combo. You'll have no problems with your economy with him.
Cyrus - I've done very well with him in the past
Alexander the Great
Tier 2:
Huayna Capac
Mehmed II
Mansa Musa
Shaka
Frederick the Great
Mathama Gandhi
Tier 3:
Peter the Great
Otto von Bismarck
Ramesses II
George Washington
Ragnar Lodbrok
Genghis Khan
Tier 4:
Wang Kon
Tokugawa Ieyasu
Franklin Roosevelt
Napoleon Bonaparte
Kublai Khan
Qin Shi Huang
Tier 5:
Isabella
Asoka
Joseph Stalin
Hatshepsut
Victoria I
Louis XIV
Tier 6:
Montezuma
Catherine the Great
Saladin
Winston Churchill
Mao Zedong
Brennus

I have way too much spare time on my hands, so I calculated exactly what the thread creator was intending to do. If I have yet more time later on, I might calculate the standard deviation, but there needs to be a bigger sample size for that to mean much.

Hannibal Barca 42
Elizabeth I 41
Julius Caesar 40
Cyrus the Great 39
Augustus Caesar 36
Mahatma Gandhi 33
Mansa Musa 33
Mehmed II 32
Ragnar Lodbrok 32
Huayna Capac 31
Victoria I 31
Wang Kon 30
Alexander the Great 27
Frederick the Great 27
Ramesses II 27
Genghis Khan 26
Napoleon Bonaparte 25
Asoka 23
Shaka 23
Tokugawa Ieyasu 22
Winston Churchill 22
Hatshepsut 21
Joseph Stalin 20
Montezuma I 19
Peter the Great 19
Qin Shi Huang 19
Catherine the Great 17
George Washington 16
Kublai Khan 16
Louis XIV 16
Otto von Bismarck 15
Brennus 14
Franklin Roosevelt 14
Isabella I 14
Saladin 11
Mao Zedong 9

Tier 1
Augustus
Huayna Capac
Wang Kon
Elizabeth
Gandhi
Ragnar
Tier 2
Churchill
Julius Caesar
Cyrus
Asoka
Mehmed II
Hannibal
Tier 3
Kublai Khan
Mansa Musa
Qin Shi Huang
Montezuma
Shaka
Napoleon
Tier 4
Catherine
Genghis Khan
Victoria
Alexander
Isabella
Brennus
Tier 5
Peter
Frederick
Ramesses II
Washington
Roosevelt
Louis XIV
Tier 6
Stalin
Tokugawa
Bismarck
Hatshepsut
Mao Zedong
Saladin

Tier 1: Hannibal, Cyrus, Huayna Capac, Wang Kon, Ragnar, Gandhi

Tier 2: Hatshepsut, Elizabeth, Brennus, Mansa Musa, Napoleon, Augustus Caesar

Tier 3: Washington, Louis, Rameses, Kublai Khan, Mehmed, Alexander.

Tier 4: Victoria, Churchill, Asoka, Genghis Khan, Shaka, Montezuma

Tier 5: Roosevelt, Catherine, Julius Caesar, Qin Shi Huang, Saladin, Tokugawa

Tier 6: Isabella, Mao Zedong, Frederick, Bismarck, Peter, Stalin

The OP didn't make very clear exactly what he meant by 'best'. Are we talking about the ones you most enjoy playing with? The ones you do best with? The ones the AI do best with? The ones who you think were coolest in real life? The ones with the best hair? God knows.

I'm going to go with a mixture of the first and second of those criteria. I don't get to play nearly as often as I'd like to, so most of these are guesses about how I'd feel about using a leader, but hopefully it's worth at least something.

Tier 1

Bismarck - I can understand why everyone else hates him, but I usually play OCC and he works well for that.
Elizabeth - All the tech you can eat. Redcoats too.
Mansa Musa - Cultural win in the bag!
Huayna Capac - Good traits, great UU, fantastic UB!
Ragnar - Even I like to pick fights when I'm Ragnar!
Mehmed II - Nice trait combo, and love the UU and UB.

Tier 2

Tokugawa - Cool traits, albeit with a mediocre UU and UB.
Montezuma - Sacrficial altars more than make up for the lacklustre UU.
Gandhi - Another cultural victory candidate.
Julius Caesar - Insanely good UU, decent UB and traits which let you grab lots of land and afford to keep it.
Frederick - Next best thing to the forbidden Fin + Org combo.
Augustus Caesar - See JC.

Tier 3

Catherine - Easy to grab land, or steal some later with Cossacks.
Churchill - Next best thing to Agg + Cha.
Isabella - Her UU and UB make war fun.
Cyrus - Promotions and GGs aplenty.
Ramesses II - Yet another cultural victory candidate. I don't like his UU or UB much, however.
Asoka - Nice traits, nice UU.

Tier 4

Victoria - Nice all-rounder.
Shaka - Not really one for me, but you have to respect his traits and UB.
Wang Kon - It seems almost unfair to be using rocket launchers so early.
Hatshepsut - It's nice not to worry about border expansion or civics changes.
Saladin - Quite versatile.
Kublai Khan - Not used him, but can see the appeal.

Tier 5

Roosevelt - Meh.
Napoleon - Excellent warmonger traits, but I'm just not a warmonger.
Hannibal - I'm sure he's great, but not for me.
Qin Shi Huang - Don't get me wrong, Cho Ko Nus are cool.
Mao Zedong - Dunno.
Peter - Dunno.

Tier 6

Brennus - Does nothing for me.
Louis XIV - Good warmonger traits, but I'm no warmonger so they don't make up for the terrible UU and UB.
Genghis Khan - Would probably work nicely with a pillage economy, but I'm not into that.
Stalin - Anti-synergetic traits.
Alexander - Ick, yet another warmonger leader...
Washington - Awful.

To be honest, tiers 4 and 5 blend together for me. It's only the tier 6 leaders I really dislike, and even then only a few of them.