ALC Game #8: Alexander/Greece

Pre-Game Thread

Round 0: 4000 BC
Round 0 continued
Round 1: to 2710 BC
Round 1: to 1600 BC
Round 2: to 600 BC
Round 3: to 125 AD
Round 4: to 1030 AD
Round 5: to 1330 AD
Round 6: to 1620 AD
Round 7: to 1824 AD
Round 8: to 1870 AD
Round 9: to 1890 AD
Round 10: to 1938 AD
Round 11: to 1955 AD
Post-Mortem

The idea of the All Leaders Challenge is that I'm going to play a game with each of the Civ IV leaders--mostly the less popular ones--that I haven't tried before. With the help of all the posters who participate, I will attempt to make the most of the leader's traits, starting techs, and UU. Aside from the leader, the other game settings are kept constant, at their defaults, for the sake of comparison. I will post the saved game files, screenshots, and status reports here as the game progresses. Everyone then has a chance to chime in with their strategy ideas, or voice their frustration (or glee) when I make a mistake.

Everyone is invited to offer opinions and advice, and make your own attempt at playing the same game. But if you do play a "shadow game", I kindly request that you refrain from posting spoilers--i.e. any facts or even hints about the map, opponents, and so on--before I'm there myself. I'm trying to play the game as authentically as possible.

In this ALC game, I'm playing as Alexander the Great, leader of Greece. (As I mentioned in the pre-game thread, this will be the last ALC on Prince level. The next one with Huyana Capac of the Incas will be on Monarcy level.)

The beginning is the most important part of the work.
- Plato

Click to expand...

Here are the initial game settings:



And the starting position:



Not a bad start for Alexander, since he starts with fishing and there's a seafood resource right there. There are forests for chopping, several river tiles, a food resource (corn), and a calendar-enabled luxury resource (silk). No stone yet, though. (In the pre-game thread--see the link above--we were discussing making a run for the Pyramids to provide all the government civics to support a specialist economy. Of course, we could go the stoneless Oracle-Metal Casting-Great Engineer route...)

Based upon the resource indicators, we are north of the equator. I think I see tundra peeking out from the edge of the hidden tile just west of the northwest plains hill, so we may be quite far north.

I'm going to say, even before I move the Scout, that I should settle in place. I sacrifice a forest, but I keep all the visible resources and a fresh water bonus thanks to the river. As I mentioned, I'm pretty sure I see tundra NW of me, so I don't think I should move in that direction. It also looks like there's desert south of that eastern grassland hill, so I'd rather not go over there.

However, I've got a Scout and of course I'll move him before making a final decision. So where should he go? North then northwest to verify my suspicions about tundra (and to see if moving to the NW plains hill would be worthwhile)? On to one of the grassland hills to reveal more terrain? Southwest to reveal more of the settle-in-place fat cross?

Also--assuming I build within reach of the Clams, should my first build be a Workboat? I know I'm getting a bit ahead of myself, but I just thought I'd open discussion on that right away.

At any rate, the main thing to discuss is movement of the Scout (which I'll post next) and location of the capital.

Here is the saved game file:

Settle in place. Two good food sources and three (at least) plains hills make Athens It will be able to easily churn out settlers and military while the second city concentrates on the pyramids. If you decide to go by the Oracle/MC-route, building the Oracle there will be no biggie with all those forests arond.

And since the scout can't give you any new information about the starting location with his first two moves, I'd recommend moving him SE-SE, to that grassland hill.

Re city placement: either settle in place or possibly plains hill NNW between clams and corn. Might be worth sending scout to the plains hill first to see what's the other side.
Re objectives: what are you intentions for this game? Specialist economy demo? Faster victory? Something else?

A workboat is a very good investment from the start. Not only can you let the city grow, but you'll have an improvement that also has 2 . It seems like a waste to move or build anything else first. If you find out that you are on a huge continent you'll always be able to whip a scout to explore more.

Also, with all those hills around you you might get lucky and have copper or iron in your fat cross. That would be something!

Not sure about the research path though. If you go Agriculture-Mining-Bronze Working you'll have something to do for a future worker and it will allow fast growth.

About the Scout, once you settle you'll reveal a little more of the map, so I'd let the decision about where to scout until after settling.

Edit: I just loaded your save and it definitely looks like the tile 3N2E from your settler is tundra. With this in mind, I'd scout East then come back SW, and then well, it depends on what you find of course.

Sisiutil said:

However, I've got a Scout and of course I'll move him before making a final decision.

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I'm inclined to think that this is an error. You've got a good location for a capital already (ocean access without too many water tiles, fresh water via a river, lots of space for cottages), with desert to the SE and tundra in the NW, I don't like your alternatives much. So I'd be inclined towards settling first, and using that information to guide the scout.

First build? Ug. I hate defering scouts, but the boat does look more important. You can work the plains hill and get a boat in 8 turns with some overflow that you can convert (2P-> 2F+1C). You could slot in a scout (4 turns), but the overflow from the scout isn't enough to shave a turn off the boat. Once the boat is in place, your research rate should look pretty decent.

I just thought of something: what will you build once the worker is completed in the Agri-Mining-BW research scenario? Maybe a scout, maybe a warrior or barracks... Don't know. Maybe after BW you should research Mysticism to be able to start the Stonehenge.

I like VoU's suggestion of building the boat with the forested plains hill. The boost you'll have once you finish the workboat will be quite useful. That said... this could mean you'll have to insert something in the queue to allow the city to grow to size 2 before starting on the worker, otherwise it will get built the brute-force way and with only 1 population. Maybe if you switch techs: Mining-BW-convert to slavery-Agri you could get the worker faster? But this can mean that once the worker is out he won't be able to improve the corn. Maybe you'll get a copper to mine?! Aaaargh...

Conclusion: workboat with 3H forested hill, scout/barracks until size 2, worker with clams and corn worked. Research: still like Agri-Mining-BW best.

I'd say settle in place. The surrounding terrain looks dicey, and you may end up just moving around to find out the spot you started on is the best one anyways. And definitely go for a work boat first, while researching Agriculture for the Corn. It's up to you if you want to wait until size 2 for a worker or not. Being on the sea and having unsavory land nearby may also raise the priority of sailing...

[Long-time reader, first-time poster]

I'll add my voice to the settle-in-place brigade. True you lose a forest, but you've got plenty of others to chop and with those three plains hills, plus loads of food to work them, Athens can be a production powerhouse in the early game anyway.

This is possibly a bit premature, but since Alex is a philosophical leader, how about chopping/building both Stonehenge and the Oracle to double up on GPP and do an old-fashioned CS-slingshot? With early bureaucracy, Athens can churn out a stack of Axes/Phalanx to stomp on your unfortunate neighbours in no time at all.

Plan for the Great Library. A very good investment for a Philosophical leader. I'd stay away from GP points and try to get as many GSs as possible. GS lets you build Academies and you can burn one on Education later, ensuring that you win the Liberalism race. Early MT is very possible.

VoiceOfUnreason is right. Settle in place before you move the scout. Here's why.

The argument for moving the scout first is that theoretically he might reveal something that leads you to regret settling in place. OK, I'll play that game. Where is that hypothetical tile that you'll want to settle on instead?

I postulate that wherever that tile is, you'll still want the capital to have both the clams and the corn. You aren't going to want to move if it costs you one of those two resources, especially since at this point we're still open to the idea of a specialist economy. Of course, you also want to remain on the coast. Otherwise you'll be working the clams with no lighthouse. There are 5 tiles besides the one you're on now that can do that: the 4 visible coastal tiles and the one just south of the clams.

The only one even worth considering among those is the plains hill (if I need to elaborate on this, I can, but I think that much is obvious for various reasons). To work the plains hill, you would need to sacrifice your river bonus, probably add some tundra to your fat cross, and most importantly take on 11 new tiles that aren't in your current capital's fat cross. I'll say that again ... the plains hill capital would sacrifice more than half of your "real" capital's tiles. Given what we know about how the map generator gooses the capital, that's a huge sacrifice. I'll guarantee that you'd be worse off on the plains hill.

Settle in place. Then let's have a look at what's revealed so we can decide where the scout heads.

This is a Vanilla game right? If not, with philosophical leaders I would suggest going with the Great Wall first, no matter what wonders you are looking for. It's really cheap, useful, and generates you a GE pretty quickly which you can use to get more GE wonders like the Pyramids. I did this in my last Monarch game with Alex and it worked quite well. I probably had 3 GEs before I even build forges.

The start looks pretty good so I would settle in place and see how that directs your scout. Looks like most of the useful land will be SW.

I think the consensus is settle in place, which is probably the best decision.

Instead of just working the plains hill like VoU said, I would alternate that with the silk, once the borders pop. I forget the values of a workboat and a scout, but I would try to micro so that the scout is built on the same turn that you reach 2 pop. That way you don't have to waste turns on a barracks or something while waiting to hit 2 pop to start the worker.

You might not have to do much micro at all, if you switch to the clams as soon as the boat is built, since then you'll have a total of 7f/1p/2c, meaning that you'll gain food much faster than build the scout. You might be best just working the plains hill for the boat, and then alternating the hill and the clams to time the scout.

I'll second settle in place before moving the scout. Definitely your strongest opening move. As for the scout, I'd move him southeast twice to the hill for best visibility, unless settling your city reveals something more interesting.

Move W SW with the scout first, I might change your opinion, and it doesn't cost anything.

dutchfire said:

Move W SW with the scout first, I might change your opinion, and it doesn't cost anything.

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There's an opportunity cost, maybe not much, but it's there. The issue is that the tiles that will reveal (the 2 tiles south of the clams) will be revealed anyway when you ultimately decide to settle in place. So what you've lost is one turn of scouting.

If you can convince me that move really might change the decision on settling in place, then I'll concede that it's worth it, but what is it you're expecting to see over there? Let's say, hypothetically, that you spot stone or a cow over there. Why would you move the settler based on that? Again, those two tiles will already be in the city's radius, even if you settle in place. I'd say, "Hey, great! Stone!" and then settle right where the settler is standing now.

I'd say Scout to NW Plains hill for sight (in the one direction that you could move and keep the resources), and then Settle either in place Or on the plains hill spot doesnt look better.

Option 2: move the Scout to the Grassland hill (all by itself) and settle in place

Whether you settle in starting spot or plains hill this looks like a good opportunity to practice your whipping skills. Maybe build fishing boat and head towards bronze-working?

Well, the overwhelming majority says settle in place, and who am I to argue with the masses?

Seriously, in addition to all the points above, there is one other thing, you're going to lose the fresh water bonus unless you go to the other river, but that gives you a whole bunch of plains tiles you dont want.

Phrederick said:

Instead of just working the plains hill like VoU said, I would alternate that with the silk, once the borders pop. I forget the values of a workboat and a scout, but I would try to micro so that the scout is built on the same turn that you reach 2 pop. That way you don't have to waste turns on a barracks or something while waiting to hit 2 pop to start the worker.

Click to expand...

Scout 15
Workboat 30

My concern here is that the value of a scout drops with time - he's got two windows, really (one before the AI beats you to the good huts, and one after Writing). So my usual drill is to hurry it along as fast as I can, or not bother at all.

Growing to size two shaves off two turns of time building the worker, and starts five turns later. I find it hard to believe that's an edge worth micromanaging.

Round 0 continued

I agreed with the group consensus and settled in place:



That done, I chose a Workboat as my first build and changed the tiles worked by my first and only citizen to speed up its production:



Then it was back to the Scout. Since the city's first border pop will reveal the contents of the tribal village, I decided to leave it for now. The city's founding revealed, as I suspected, tundra to the northwest, so that direction was not appealing; remember the primary objective of a scouting unit is to reveal the best sites for your next couple of cities. So I decided to sent the Scout onto the grassland hill to the northeast, with the idea of sending him in a clockwise circle to explore the east, then the south, from there. Here's what he revealed:



It looks like I've been handed a challenging start along the lines of the Mao and Loius ALC games: a good site for the capital but not much else. Tundra to the north, desert at the other three points of the compass. There is one flood plains tile to the east; let's cross our collective fingers and hope for more.

I like the research order of Agriculture followed by Bronze Working, and building a Scout (maybe even a couple of them) as the city grows to pop 2, then a Worker.

To answer a couple of previous questions:

suspendinlight, I have not purchased Warlords and probably won't for some time. Money issues; c'est la vie. So it's vanilla, no Great Wall.

pigswill, I liked your idea in the pre-game thread of bowing out of Prince with a bang, so yes, I'd like to try for the earliest win with the biggest score possible. Now, how to achieve that...?

Well, unless the Scouts or the 1st border pop reveals something more promising, I think the surrounding terrain rules out a MC/Pyramids shot. I don't see a good location for the 2nd city within 3 tiles of the capital yet. Maybe to the south, but with all that desert on either side, I doubt it.

Nevertheless, Alex is Philosophical, so some attempt at a Specialist Economy makes sense. If the surrounding terrain turns out to be more of the same--plains and desert--it will be hard to run too many specialists, though. So some sort of hybrid economy may be necessary.

I'll make a final decision once more terrain is revealed and everyone weighs in, however.