ALC Game #10: India/Asoka

Elandal said:

Be prepared for Mehmed offering to capitulate. Assuming he offers to capitulate when you've taken what you want

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He can only capitulate after he has researched Feudalism, which hopefully hasn't happened yet.

He can't capitulate until Feudalism is discovered. Which is still far off. So I don't think that will be a problem if you finish him off now.

/e: Damn you Jiggle!

Never paid attention to that requirement, so completely forgot it In this case, it's good. I can't see a way for Mehmed to be left with something that would make for a good vassall, so not having the option is perfect.

drkodos said:

I hear ya. My comment wasn't so much aimed at you, but the general mindset that permeates these boards that winning is so very important.

Remember, the actual quote of Lombardi is really:
Winning isn't the only thing. Wanting to win is.

We all know the bastardized version, but it is, alas, incorrect and completely misses the larger point he made to his team that attitude is most important and far outweighs actual results. Far too nuanced for most Americans, though.

Either way, if you wanted to test out all these goodies, why pick Asoka? I mean, the synergy between these goodies would have been better served with a Warlords leader that would better emphasize these nice little gizmos, gadgets, and generals.


Just sayin.

<cough> Brennus <cough>
<cough cough> Hannibal <cough cough>

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I read this on Wikipedia.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winning_isn't_everything;_it's_the_only_thing.

It argues that "winning is the only thing" was the correct quote...Sorry if this is off topic...

Jeff1787 said:

I read this on Wikipedia.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winning_isn't_everything;_it's_the_only_thing.

It argues that "winning is the only thing" was the correct quote...Sorry if this is off topic...

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Well, that is one reason why Wikipedia is a poor source of info.

The quote was actually recorded, because he stated it several times, and is available in the Library of Congress in their sound inventory catalog.

It is also in Jerry Kramer's Book, Run to Daylight, I believe.

Round 7: to 640 AD

Yes, a much longer round, with more turns, this time! I wanted to get to the point that we'd discussed and planned--Istanbul and Ankara gone, and new cities of my own founded nearby.

To start, however, Mehmed had a tech I very much wanted, Polytheism, as it's a prerequisite for Literature and the Great Library. I had Metal Casting and Alphabet on him, but I didn't want to give him either. So I rolled the dice and tried demanding it:



It worked! Excellent...

As I moved my Axemen into position and finished some civilian builds, I started work on a Forge in Madras (prepping for the Colossus--too bad I got beaten to the Great Lighthouse and Temple of Artemis), and my Great Prophet appeared in Delhi. I used him as planned, for the Buddhist shrine:



I was actually able to go to 70% research and still be in the black, which convinced me it was time to expand. Not peacefully, though:



Time to prove why the expansion pack is called "Warlords"! Thanks to Bombay's cultural borders, I was able to move my stack into a jungle tile right beside Bursa on the turn before I declared war. The city had two Archer defenders, and I attacked with two of my CR II veteran Axemen, who had roughly 67% odds in their favour. Both succeeded:



I also captured that worker north of the city; the one to the southeast got away--at first. Heh heh heh. I decided to keep Bursa. It's a well-placed city and I thought I could probably afford it, even with my plans to add two more cities that will replace Istanbul and Ankara. Plus I could use another city to generate units, as some of mine (Madras, Cuman) were going to be busy with non-military builds for some time.

My stack then proceeded to Ankara, which was on a hill and defended by an Axeman and an Archer. I didn't have outstanding odds, but I had the defenders outnumbered 2.5 to 1, so I attacked:



Again I was lucky--I think I lost one Axeman, but I'd have to check the log to be certain. Ankara had no wonders that I could discern, so I razed it. In fact, I'm pretty sure that despite the marble, Mehmed didn't manage to finish any wonders at all.

A few turns later I finished researching Construction and started building Catapults. Istanbul as a 50% culture defense, so my meagre stack will need help taking that city down.

Around this same time, my investment in converting Ragnar to Buddhism finally paid off as he became "Pleased" with me. More importantly, he was willing to tech trade:



I didn't want to give an Aggressive leader, who's also my neighbour, a military tech like construction, so I decided to research Monarchy on my own. I didn't need its happiness boost from wine or units yet anyway.

Monotheism, of course, allowed me to convert to one of my favourite civics:



With OR in place, I can now generate missionaries wherever I need to, and build things much faster. It was so nice to be able to switch to it without a turn of anarchy to slow me down!

I also sent a Settler scurrying over to the east coast to found my first of two cities there:



It's not a hugely more optimal placement, but the main reason for razing and re-founding is that it's out of the way of the city that will replace Istanbul. And I now have marble to help with the Great Library, among other things.

Speaking of Wonders, thanks to copper, a forge, organized religion, and a judicious chop...



Istanbul's replacement, with those six clam tiles, will take definite advantage of that. Plus the 6 cultural points per turn will ensure I preserve the city's tile possessions.

Then something troubling occurred. Remember how I didn't trade Construction to Ragnar? Well, he showed up asking for it:



I had to think about this for awhile. I decided to turn him down because I thought if he dropped to "cautious", I could get him back to "Pleased" fairly easily. He was at +3 on the "brothers and sisters of the faith", and if I acquired Monarchy and switched to HR soon I'd be running his favourite civic. He did change to "Cautious" as a result of this, but did indeed come back a while later. More troubling is the fact that he's "Friendly" with Tokugawa. Hmmm...

I also have a demerit from him for "close borders" sparking tensions, and I got evidence of that a few turns later, shortly after Madras' borders popped:



If that city flips, I'll raze it. Bjorgvin, to Madras' south, is a more worthwhile city and is currently at around 10% Viking culture and dropping. (Notice how I've already stolen one of its cottages. Heh. I also took its ivory tile, so I have a monopoly on that resource now.) If it flips, I'd like to keep it, since it has rice and horses and would make a good buffer for Madras.

Ah yes, I'm researching Theology. With Ragnar happier and everybody Buddhist, I felt that I could delay contact with the other continent a little. Theocracy would be a very valuable civic to have in my back pocket against these two neighbours. And who knows, I might get Christianity out of it; a second religion wouldn't hurt. However, if the consensus is that I should be researching something else, I'm only a couple of turns into it and could switch if need be.

My first few Catapults finally made it over to Istanbul. Over several turns, I wore down the cultural defense, while bringing over more offensive units and additional Catapults. Finally I was ready to attack. I lost one Catapult and one Swordsman, but captured the city:



I razed it, but look at that! 3 Fast Workers. Sweet!

And as a result of this battle, I got my very first Great General!



Sweeter still! I have a Combat I Chariot sitting in Basra--I plan to play match-maker with these two next turn and get my Medic III unit.

And I had a Settler standing by right outside of Istanbul, ready to re-build near its ruins:



That Galley was worrisome, since it was threatening to pillage all those lovely fishing boats. Mehmed was now down to one city, Edirne, to the southwest of Calcutta. Ragnar was back to being "Pleased" with me, but is ahead of me technically, so though he has Currency and Feudalism on me, I only have Code of Laws now to offer him in return. So I decided to see if I could extort any techs from Mehmed:



He wouldn't give up Horseback Riding as well, but getting Monarchy was, I figured, worth it. It's going to take me a few turns to get my stack down to Edirne anyway, even though declaring war again may earn me negatives with my other two neighbours.

So that's where the turn ended. Since things are progressing and getting more complicated, I'll follow up this post with a "State of the World" report shortly.

The State of the World, 640 AD

For starters, he's a look at the map. With resource indicators...



And without.



So I now pretty much own the northern third of my continent. Ragnar has the the midwest while Tokugawa owns the southeast. I have most of the best city sites, I think, and Ragnar may lose a couple of his cities to Madras' cultural force before too long. Tokugawa has been forced to build cities down in the ice and tundra--still, it's best not to underestimate him.

Here is how I stand in terms of technology, first vis-a-vis Ragnar,



Tokugawa,



And Mehmed.



Okay, the fact that Toku and Ragnar have Literature is troubling. Cuman is not exactly a production powerhouse, and while I have marble, I have no forests to chop-rush the Great Library. And I have another big competitor out there, as you'll see. I would not be surprised if I get beaten to it this game. That would be quite an adjustment for me; I can't recall the last time I didn't build the GL. I rely on it not just for the extra research points from the two free scientists; I also rely on its ability to produce Great Scientists. We should expect the worst and start planning for ways to compensate for its absence. Cuman has two banana and one rice tile, so it could run several science specialists.

I'm 1 GPT away from breaking even or better on research at 50%, so that's not too bad after a war. I can start building courthouses soon, and if I can get Currency soon I can get markets going. Hmmm... maybe I should switch from researching Theology to Currency, since Ragnar is not going to trade the latter to me for Code of Laws?

And yes, Ragnar and Toku both have Feudalism for Longbowmen now. Troublesome. I will not be turning around and attacking either of them after I'm done with Mehmed. I'll need Macemen and probably Trebuchets before I can even think of that. So again, maybe a switch in my research priorities is in order--Machinery? Civil Service?

Now for the diplomatic picture. Here's how everyone views Ragnar, with an emphasis on Tokugawa:



How Mehmed is viewed:



Tokugawa's diplomatic relations:



And finally, my own:







The fact that Ragnar and Tokugawa are all cuddly is worrisome. Maybe I should have given Construction to Ragnar, though I'm still pretty sure I'd still only have him "Pleased" with me. I think it's likely that if I attack one, he'll bribe the other to come after me. Still more reason to go into a period of peaceful building once Mehmed is done. Part of my thinking behind Theology was to found Christianity and spread it to one of these two, hope he converts, and let that drive a wedge between them.

The power chart:



Ragnar has a lead on me, Toku more so. Mind you, some of that is from techs--Toku has Feudalism for Longbows (a defensive unit), while Ragnar has that and Horseback Riding. Even so, such distinctions may not matter to the AI. Even if I go into a building period, I'm going to have to build a lot of units just to keep these two wolves at bay. I don't have any Spearmen and should build a few, along with more War Elephants and Catapults, my own best defensive units.

And one last thing. Someone out there is scarfin' down wonders like there's no tomorrow:



Look at that: the Pyramids, Great Wall, Parthenon, and Chichen Itza all in the same damn city. There just has to be an industrial civ on that other continent. The betting pool on who it is starts now.

At this point, as I've said, I think the plan will be to live in peace until I'm more of a match for Ragnar and Toku. You can certainly debate whether I should have taken peace and that tech from Mehmed or just finished him. Again, my past experience has been that if you can get a worthwhile tech for peace, do it. A few turns to regroup is not a bad thing. If Mehmed somehow gets Feudalism and ends up someone's vassal, I probably won't finish him off just yet. I also still have to build my NW fishing village before the AI beats me there.

Input and recommendations are, as always, welcome.

Here's slightly Silly Idea That Might Work, IF you Found Christianity and the Holy City Ends up in a Junk City Or A City Your willing to Sacrifice near the broader near Either Toku or Ragnar. Gift That Holy City to them and hopefully they'll convert and become Enemies with each other lol and play the Dipolmacy Game your Spiritual afterall.

With One being Christian and the Other Buddist it won't be Very Hard to go to war with them even with their UU because you'll have an Ally with the Same Religous Faith.

If your up to taking a Risk of Founding Christianity and Risking the Hope of Getting the Holy City Found in the Right Place.

Found a City here


Try to found the City Before another AI and try to Research Theology ASAP and hope you get it First and Hope your holy City ends up there.

Yes I know it's very risky but it's worth a Shot if you want to make the game more interesting.

Note: 6 out of your 8 cities already have a religion in them, try to get your last 2 recently founded Cities have religons before you found Christianity.

kniteowl's devilish plan is really interesting.
But you could put the wanabee holy city further south (depends on how fast you can build it!).
Anyway, even without those machiavelic plans, you should go all the way with theology. Spare money for it! (you'll end up with money when you will miss the GL anyway )
You will be able to trade theology for currency AND money anyway.

Hmm...looks like Mehmed has another city by the gold.

If you build a city in the "Holy-City" spot, then for optimila city-ing, I'd raze Edirne and Mehmed's other city, and build another one of yours NW of the gold.

if you want toku and ragnar to be unfriendly, you can make them have border tensions.
For this, you need holy city to be further south, and gift it to ragnar.

To be true, I wouldn't do it.
They have open borders, ragnar can send missionaries to toku. You could be in a tough isolated situation there!

Part of the reason for those 4 wonders in one city could well be the 3 GE points from the Pyramids and Great Wall. Bear in mind that part of the reason for the gap in power between yourself and Toku/Ragnar will also be the massive gap in population.

The new AI actually grows its cities large, develops the land and builds and works cottages. Take a look at your GNP - it's hideous.

This is about to turn into the sort of post UncleJJ really specialises in, so apologies to him for not doing it as well as he does.

A few things worth thinking about:

1. You've just fought a war to gain three cities, two of which are brand new ones you built yourself and one of which is small with only a barracks (so far) in terms of infrastructure. Was the hit that research and infrastructure development across the rest of your empire's taken worth it?
2. Would it have been better to keep Mehmed's cities and use those two settlers on new ones of your own?
3. Grow your cities! They're all massively under the happy and health caps which translates to a lot of lost productivity. Remedying this is the quickest way to raise your power and GNP to make you more competitive with the neighbours.
4. On a related note, you need more workers. You may have just captured a few from Mehmed, but you could do with at least 4 more. There are still a lot of undeveloped tiles around your core cities, which needs to be changed quickly if population growth is to be of much immediate benefit.
5. Delhi and Bombay both have cottaged grassland and uncottaged floodplains. Why?
6. Delhi's still running a Priest specialist, stunting growth. Why? Now you've got the Buddhist shrine, do you need another GP?
7. You've built the Colossus, which is good, but you have no lighthouses and are only working two water tiles, which is bad. You're organized and get cheap lighthouses so put that right fast!

Apologies if that all comes across as being pedantic. Militarily the war against Mehmed was as successful as you'd expect. The cities you razed and rebuilt will be better in 1000 years time, but by then your empire will be much larger and they'll be less important individually. If you'd kept them (unfortunately it's a lottery which buildings survive the capture, but since he didn't have any units or wonders, they were likely to have been well-developed) and used those 2 settlers to fill in gaps in your empire, you'd be in a stronger position for a peaceful growth/development phase now.

The Great Library may be a long-shot as you said, because it's already 640AD! Speaking of which, I'm amazed Christianity and Taoism haven't been founded yet. Confucianism's the dominant religion on the other continent, with HinJewdaism being tied at 1/3 of that, making me think there's probably a Confucian alliance beating up on another civ. Techwise, I think Civil Service will be of greatest benefit. It's 24 turns at your current rate, but that will improve and gives Delhi the chance to grow and develop ready to take real advantage of Bureaucracy. Don't worry about it's increased civic cost - with a decent capital (and let's face it, it's rare that they're not) you still benefit fairly significantly.

It's probably worth checking whether an AI civ that lacks Feudalism can become a vassal of one that has it, because Mehmed's much more friendly with Toku and Ragnar than either of them are with you. If you declare on him and he becomes a vassal of one of them, you may end up in a fairly unpleasant situation.

On a more positive note, you've got lots of granaries this game, which is a big step in the right direction from previous ALCs

Hans Lemurson said:

Hmm...looks like Mehmed has another city by the gold.

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That will be Konya (look at the city list when peace was bought for Monarchy).

cabert said:

if you want toku and ragnar to be unfriendly, you can make them have border tensions.
For this, you need holy city to be further south, and gift it to ragnar.

To be true, I wouldn't do it.
They have open borders, ragnar can send missionaries to toku. You could be in a tough isolated situation there!

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Once Ragnar converts, I believe Toku will close broaders so Missionaries can't convert him, If all else Fails, Gift or trade Toku Theology and get him to Switch to theocracy before Ragnar Converts him.

But who says Sisiutil is gonna gift Ragnar the holy city, he could gift it to Toku, Depends on who will make a better ally or who will become more of a threat in the future.

Persoanlly Short term, I'd gift it to Toku, he has less cities with religion in them therefore more likely to convert sooner, I havn't seen Toku Speard Religon with missionaries before

Long term wise I'd gift it to Ragnar, he's Financial and there more of a Threat as he'll be able to keep up in tech. There;s also a chance he may not convert for quite a long time as some of his cities alredy hav Buddist Religon therefore he wouldn't convert unless he has more advantage over the Religois civics under Christianity.

you lost me there kniteowl.
Why would you gift it to ragnar if he's a bigger threat???
+ I'm not sure that Toku would accept this gift.
A test with a close city before deciding what to do would be good.

cabert said:

you lost me there kniteowl.
Why would you gift it to ragnar if he's a bigger threat???
+ I'm not sure that Toku would accept this gift.
A test with a close city before deciding what to do would be good.

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Assuming Toku becomes more friendlier with an increasing number of Positive Religious Modifiers.

If you gift the Holy City To Ragnar you Could Declare War on Raganr, Weaken or eliminate him from the Coninent with the Aid of Toku (assuming he's freindlier), you also get More Positive modifiers from Military Struggle. Assuming that Ragnar Decides to Convert to Christianity.

2 cents about Toku.
I'm playing a game as Gandhi on Noble. In my continent, it was only me, Toku and Churchill. I had to get rid of Churchill early. Luckily, Toku got Buddhism spread to him and converted. A lot later, I got +1 for years of peace and +4 for sharing religion. I got Open Borders with him to try leaving him pleased and traded some techs. Well, as soon as our borders grew closer (and he managed to settle on the ONLY tundra tile that wasn't on my cultural borders), he canceled the open Borders and got Cautious with me.
My point is: Toku really isn't that reliable, even as a pet dog. I trust him less than I trust Monty!

I'd not found christianity. I do not like the plan of gifting the city away.
So whoever founds christianity, it will be better if it's not you. If anyone on your continent founds it, its good. And if other continent founds it, that could be good too.

I agree that peaceful build-phase is in order now. Your fishing city NW will pay for itself very quick, mabye at once, at least at size two. Have the workboat and missionary standing by as you found. Each of your new cities are +1 commerce (center plot) + 1 gold (rel. shrine) + whatever else. Coast tile for +3 and you are close to breaking even there.

However "peaceful" building should very definately include lots of military, for defense against potential counterattack.

You have aquired a lot of land, and your forces are thinly spread out. If Either Toku or Ragnar had a competent council like in this ALC, they would all be screaming to attack the you ASAP before you can consolidate your foothold and build up.

I believe your elephants with str 8 can supstitute for macemen. You just need a little more catapults per city, but they are kinda cheap as well.

So build as many catapults you can, and then some. Also elephants as your general purpose melee units

General - is medic III so great? I understand that the xp help with national epic, but won't your big war (against Toku. or Toku&Ragnar) generate a 17 xp unit for you if you nurse one unit carefully? And regular medics might work allright anyway? Rest up right after city capture is quick enough.

Better long-term value from directly adding him to the city. Also somewhat decent short-value, as you now can get 2 promotions out of the box without theocracy. 2 settled generals + theo. + vassal + barrack = 3 promotions, instant city raider III can be a big boon, both to macemen (to be upgraded to gunpowder later) and catapults/cannon/trebuchet. Now tell me you gonna throw all that oomph away for a measly nursing unit?

Sisiutil said:

Okay, the fact that Toku and Ragnar have Literature is troubling. Cuman is not exactly a production powerhouse, and while I have marble, I have no forests to chop-rush the Great Library. And I have another big competitor out there, as you'll see. I would not be surprised if I get beaten to it this game.

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Wow. Just Wow.

You are wondering if, in 640 AD, you still have time to build the Great Library in a size three commerce city; at the same time, I'm wondering if the entire game is beyond salvage.

Are you sure you uploaded the right save? Cuz I'm pretty sure we aren't seeing the same things on the demographics screens.

Steps I would recommend
1) Get yourself off the idea that your game is decent. This may be the hard part, but here's a hint: running breakeven at 50% science with the worst economy on the planet is a bad place.

2) Get rid of the Forges. You are just kidding yourself. You are paying 34/gpt in city maintenance and you've built NO courthouses. Have you forgotten that you are Organized?

3) Get rid of Theology. You aren't going to war so soon if you can possibly help it, and helping your neighbors find a different god is not going to make your life any easier. An extra traderoute in every city looks to be another 15? commerce per turn.

4) Stop screwing around with your workers. You've unimproved flood plains in your two oldest cities ???? My recommendation would be to stack all of your workers together, and start dropping cottages everywhere. It's not terribly original, but it might recover in time.

5) Grow grow grow! It may hit you in the pocketbook a little, but you need the bodies. If you like, think of it as accumulating hammers for when you have to whip an army to repell the warmongers to your south, but get the bread in the basket.

6) Watch those borders like a hawk - you really don't want to let anyone beat you to the NW corner. You should be thinking about whether that site is more important to you than the open borders bonus, because you should know now what you are going to do when the settler in Uppsala starts sailing north.