ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

I would say in a normal situation to go Alphabet, then IW (possibly trading for HBR prior to this. Of course, this may prove difficult (the AI makes you pay through the nose for HBR for some reason).

But since you're set on getting NCs, let's go HBR first, then alphabet, maybe picking up IW with it.

VoiceOfUnreason said:

First in land area, at the bottom everywhere else...

Other things Sisiutil does just to upset my stomach

1. Splitting his workers
2. Failing to grow

Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm doing that just to TICK YOU OFF. Just to give you something to be all curmudgeonly about.

Seriously, though, I don't combine Workers until later, when I (a) have enough of them and (b) have some basic tile improvements around each city--in other words, when I'm improving in anticipation of growth, rather than just trying to catch up with the existing population. Failing to grow? It's always a challenge to balance that against use of the whip. But I would like Carthage to grow from this point on, so I can work the cottages I'm about to lay down and run a scientist or two once I have a library.

Back to the big picture: it sounds like we're facing a choice between either continued expansion or imminent warfare.

Another argument in favour of expansion, besides snagging marble, is that there are more good coastal sites on the opposite side of the continent, with fish available. Expansion would mean researching iron working to deal with all that jungle. We'd then be relying on Financial and cottages to pull the economy out of the doldrums.

Imminent warfare would mean going after HBR next to highlight the UU. As has been suggested, we'd then attempt to jump down Shaka's throat before he gets iron for his Impis. I'll send my exploring Warrior into Zululand to reconnoiter the potential opposition.

So, which should it be? Ironworking for westward expansion, or HBR for war against Shaka?

One other consideration: Shaka hasn't converted to Buddhism yet, but since he's so close to Japan, the religion will surely spread to him soon. So if we want to avoid a -1 diplomatic demerit for "declaring war against our friend" from Toku, we may have to act fast, before we have HBR, and fight a phony/defensive campaign until we have enough units to attack.

on techs: "And IW would tell us if Shaka has any, since he can build his Impis with it. Hmmm..."

that is something i'd never even considered! that if i'm curious about a resource, research the tech to be able to spy via trade screen. doh on me!

even considering that tho, i favor researching HBR. particularly if we can invest time/hammers/citizens in a stable or two, it'll be fun to watch the nums attack them, and we do want some use of the UU in the ALCs. and early is the time to hit shaka for a number of reasons...one is that toku's religion hasn't spread to him yet, so you'd not get negatives with him if we do it before that happens. if he does have iron, we'll know it as soon as we run into impis. maybe we'd get lucky and see a mine on flatlands to give us a clue where it is, even if we don't have IW yet ourselves, and help us decide whether to raze or capture that city.

"In addition, are we still agreed on 1S of the gold for Golden Clam? 1NE of the gold means we could work the clams immediately, without a border pop, especially since there'll be a Work Boat already there."

blueco has changed my mind on that one, to 1NE instead of 1S. my original thinking was that 1S is spaced so nicely, and we can expand north as the game goes further, but having hills to work is a mighty handy thing. and the clams without a border pop would be nifty keen. clearly here shaka is gonna be a close-border pain when he does finally get some culture, we definitely want to be able to kill his impis quickly (altho they're sooooo cute), which means we need hammers to produce 'em. one of (perhaps the biggest?) factor in how early warmongering doesn't come naturally to me at all is that i look at 'well what will happen in the future, ladida i want my cities to be lovely'. so yup, y'all are teaching me how to focus my thinking and improve my game, thanks!!!

"Alphabet (21 turns): Enables tech trading, leads to Literature for the Great Library. 'nuff said. (I'll need Polytheism for Literature, but maybe I'll be able to trade for it.)"

how successful do we predict that we'll be able to trade with these neighbors? i don't remember ever getting toku to even open borders with me, he's stingy as all get out IME, but i've never gotten him to pleased this early. in another thread i found out he's programmed to never ever do PAs, even if you have a DP with him forever and +1000 modifiers. kublai i don't remember, i get him so mixed up with genghis (and huayna).

looking at the leaderheadinfo.xml, i found that NoTechTradeThreshold is 5 and iTechTradeKnownPercent is 100 for toku. they're 10 and 30 for kublai. checking mansa (trader-extraordinaire) as a reference, he's 20 and 0. so if i'm translating that right, KK is more likely to trade techs than toku is. i don't know the difference between the 2 things, but included them both. i'm wondering about real game experiences folks have had.

"When the Archer was one turn from completion, I whipped so the overflow would go towards an Axeman"

oh is that how to do it, time the whip so that you get the most overflow possible for the next build, which you plan as a hammer-intensive thing? as i've said a zillion times i'm the world's worst pop whipper and that's part of what i'm trying to improve on, so thanks for showing that detail, it helps me

Hadrumetum should indeed be growing, so working rice. As charismatic, you aren't easily happy-starved in the beginning, and quick growth will let you work a second tile quickly.
Monuments provide added happiness for charismatic leaders, but with the sugar you're going to go for early calendar and thus it might not really be much of an issue. Gold will also provide more happiness - overall I think you're set for fairly big cities early on.

The multiple choice research question is a very hard one.
As you skipped the religious path, you should be able to get Alphabet a bit earlier than when pursuing Oracle (the beakers of the religious path have gone for other things and you probably haven't used all of them yet, so going for Alpha now would mean you probably have Alpha early).
But if you get Alpha early, does the AI have something to trade for it? Probably IW, possibly HBR (Khan should be going HBR early, and at least Toku for IW early - but Toku won't trade techs until you're the last one without the tech iirc). Still, if Khan has monopoly on HBR, he won't trade it, and unless all three have IW, Toku at least won't trade it. Shaka, not having copper, might have gone IW and thus you might be able to get HBR and IW for Alpha.
But, assuming I'm right in that by going for Alpha now you would be getting early Alpha, it's not as appealing (to me) anymore due to being hard to get good trades out of it. If I had eg. Mansa and Mehmed here, I would know that they have and and willing to trade techs, but with the neighbourhood I'm not sure.

So, I would go for either HBR or IW. The problem is: which one? IW would allow you to continue expansion westwards, possibly blocking Toku. But how much room does Khan have in the north? It might be a bit hard if you block Toku and Shaka, only to find that Khan has been able to settle lots of good cities in the north.. Still, appeal of seeing Iron (and settling for it if not within your empire already) is strong.

If you want to go after Shaka now (as opposed to after 50 more turns), then HBR sounds good. Numidians, Axes, Spears - yes, you would have all it takes to go that route.

I think I would go for IW then Alpha myself, so that I would see the iron, have ability to clear jungle allowing expansion westwards, then see how the others are doing techwise and if the trading can commence.

An interesting point though is that if you block Toku from expanding northwards and maintain a reasonable military (so to not be an easy target), as you're buddhist buddies Toku might decide to expand east, by war with Shaka. Maybe. Would it be good? Or, if Toku was successfull in that, would it make him too powerful? Could you work out a joint operation towards the effect? And if Toku and you both are picking on Shaka, what will Khan be doing up in the north?

If you go for IW now, the settler will be done in a turn or few after IW completes, so you would have the option of delaying golden clams for a while while settling for iron.

And.. How about a war of Numidians versus Keshiks - rarely would we see two UUs with same base facing eachother, let alone a mobile battle like that (no, this is not a suggestion - just I've never seen Khan playing Hannibal or the other way, never seen those two units in action on the same fields)

but then again shaka already has the "Our close borders spark tension" penalty with toku so they probably wont be all buddy buddy

A revised dotmap, with a new location for Golden Clam (or Pearl Earring, as VoU calls it) and a proposed site for Marble Arch.



Wow, that's a lot of jungle to clear around Marble Arch! 14, not counting the city tile itself, of course.

This is one potential problem with expanding--we'll need Workers, lots of them, especially to team them to work faster as VoU advocates. That conflicts with military builds.

UNLESS, of course, we expect to capture several Workers from someone like Shaka--though how many can we really expect him to have at this point?

Now, if we go for Iron Working next, this dotmap may definitely be subject to revision, depending on the location of iron.

Great stuff there Sisiutil, denying Shaka's most valuable strategic resource

My gut feeling for the continuation would be:
- Research HBR next and churn out a fair number of NCs (don't go overboard of course) I'd mainly promote them with Flanking II and, um, the terrain movement reduction one, forgot the name there. Make sure to include a couple of medics though.
- Bribe Toku into war with Shaka ASAP. There's another unclaimed copper source back there and although it's next to Toku's borders Shaka could still claim it. Toku is an awful trading partner - tech-wise at least - but makes for a good war buddy and should thus be easy to bribe.
- Send in your fast NCs into Shaka's lands and plunder & raze whatever isn't worth keeping. I suspect there's little to be had in Shaka's lands, unless you're willing to accept severe cultural pressure from Toku. The Mutual Struggle bonus combined with religion should get Toku up to Pleased at least, I reckon.
- Meanwhile, expand to the north and let Toku grab the land to your west. I reckon you should be OK in both health and happy resources for a while (keeping in mind Hannibal has a bonus in the happiness department, and you already have a religion as well) You can trade resources with Toku later for a further bonus. He won't part with techs for the death of him but will gladly trade any resoures as far as I've experienced.
The main idea there is to deny KK as much land as possible. If let loose, he can be a serious REXer from what I've seen, so you want to combine both your own and Toku's efforts into preventing that. Be wary of his Creative trait though.
- Beeline for Optics, then Guilds. This will grant you nicely promotable Knights (from your NC's) and a boost to your economy. Seek out new trading partners on the other continents quickly. A detour for Alphabet, Currency and Construction are worth it, but I wouldn't go for much more than that.
Remember that Toku probably won't trade anything worthwhile with you, and after Shaka's demise there will be a single potential trading partner left, KK. It's doubtful he'll part with many techs so you need to seek out other civs early IMO.
- Finally, pit Toku against KK and either assist or backstab Toku, whichever of them makes the more likely target. Clean up the remainder of your continent

They're both Aggressive, netting the aggressor bonus of +1. Maybe the close borders are enough to drop them to Cautious, which means they both would like Khan more than eachother.

On tech trading, I'm not sure what the first value is but the second tells you how many other civs need to know the tech before the leader is willing to trade. It's percentages, so how large part of the other civs.
Mansa is the only one with 0 - he's the only one who will (for the right price) trade out a tech nobody else knows.
Toku is the only one with 100 - he's the only one who will trade tech to you only when everyone else he knows has it.
All others are somewhere in the grey area - Kublai at 30, Shaka at 50. So Shaka will trade a tech when half the people he knows (excluding the one who's asking for the trade) know it. Kublai's 30 means that 30% of the people he knows (again excluding you - the one wanting to trade) knows it.
When you have 4 civs total on this continent, the relevant values are 0, 100, and "anything in between", meaning that Toku will trade a tech when Shaka AND Kublai know it, while Shaka and Kublai both will trade for as long as Toku OR the other one knows it. Of course post-Optics when there's contact with more civs, the percentages mean more.. Kublai will trade a tech earlier than Shaka.

that explanation helps a lot elandal. and i don't think that i'd have figured that the 100% only includes the civs they've already met, altho of course it makes sense, you'd be quite stuck otherwise on maps with lots of civs way spread out. thanks tons!

You don't need to clear the full fat cross, just enough to have tiles you want. As you have two (and Marble Arch would grab third) crop - the full set if you go there - doubled by granary, the unhealthiness from the jungles shouldn't be a problem.

The choices, the choices..
If you settle Golden Clams and go for HBR -> Alpha, trading for IW then, and send NCs to Shaka's territory (possibly with Toku - it's good to get the MMS diplo with him unless you're going for him very soon) to pillage, possibly take a city (depends on what he has built for you), you may end up with coastal empire in that you have a long border with whoever expands to the jungles west of you. And as you want the marble anyway, whoever claimed the site will be your next target. You'll be set to warring a lot that way.

Going IW -> Alpha (trade for HBR if possible) and settling for iron and/or marble (depends on where iron is found), you are set for a bit longer peaceful builder period, but all the time spent not warring is time out of NCs useful lifespan - not that that'd come to end very soon, they should be OK for quite a while still (just check who has ivory - 'phants will be eating NCs alive).

The builder in me is calling for IW -> Alpha route, settling a bit more, building cottages and letting the coin flow in, but OTOH watching the warring is fun as well. If this would just have been a Mansa / FDR / Gandhi -type builder paradise, things would be so different.

This REALY looks like its going to help me a lot.

Thanks for setting this up!

Elandal said:

You don't need to clear the full fat cross, just enough to have tiles you want. As you have two (and Marble Arch would grab third) crop - the full set if you go there - doubled by granary, the unhealthiness from the jungles shouldn't be a problem.

The choices, the choices..
If you settle Golden Clams and go for HBR -> Alpha, trading for IW then, and send NCs to Shaka's territory (possibly with Toku - it's good to get the MMS diplo with him unless you're going for him very soon) to pillage, possibly take a city (depends on what he has built for you), you may end up with coastal empire in that you have a long border with whoever expands to the jungles west of you. And as you want the marble anyway, whoever claimed the site will be your next target. You'll be set to warring a lot that way.

Going IW -> Alpha (trade for HBR if possible) and settling for iron and/or marble (depends on where iron is found), you are set for a bit longer peaceful builder period, but all the time spent not warring is time out of NCs useful lifespan - not that that'd come to end very soon, they should be OK for quite a while still (just check who has ivory - 'phants will be eating NCs alive).

The builder in me is calling for IW -> Alpha route, settling a bit more, building cottages and letting the coin flow in, but OTOH watching the warring is fun as well. If this would just have been a Mansa / FDR / Gandhi -type builder paradise, things would be so different.

Click to expand...

I actually already have all three grains--Hadrumetum has rice, Carthage corn, Utica wheat. Though I still have to hook up the corn with a road. Marble Arch would eventually claim bananas for me, though.

I haven't seen any ivory yet so I think it's on the other continent. I don't think War Elephants will be a factor.

Keep in mind the research times will be longer than specified, as I'm hemorrhaging gold at a rate of -4 GPT with 38 in the treasury, so my research rate is going have to drop substantially in 10 turns or so. I hope to compensate for that with cottages around--and a library in--Carthage.

I'm leaning towards IW, as it will reveal information vital to further decision-making, whereas HBR will do no more than enable the UU--which, as has been pointed out, has a pretty good lifespan. HBR will tie up research a lot longer, so it would be better to go after it once the library is in place in the capital.

The next round may be short--just up until the research is completed and we see where Iron is.

VoU, if the AI is holding true to form, Shaka is building Archers and Workers, along with that cheap UB. Maybe some Chariots, if there's Horses down there somewhere. I don't recall Shaka being all that crazy about Monuments, but he hasn't been very free with the OBs in my games.

I wouldn't get too hopeful about religious strife on the other continent, Sisiutil-- IME, the founder of Hinduism just keeps following the religious tech path. I'd say this is so about 8 or 9 times out of 10, but as the Seahawks found out last night, sometimes flukes happen.

I believe there's a strong case for going with HBR and a Numidian rush ASAP. As Voice of Unreason noted, those cultural borders aren't expanding, which means all those cities won't have a defensive bonus. If you can raze three of Shaka's four cities right away, he won't be a factor for the rest of the game-- you might even get Tokugawa to help with the coup de grace later, as the AI seems willing to beat up on low powered opponents given the chance. Why the rush? Because, IMO, Shaka is only one (small!) step behind Monty as a threat for war. Would you even think twice about taking out the Aztec? I'm arguing that you should take the same attitude toward the Zulu. Why fight on his terms when you can fight on yours?

OTOH, if you're really intent on playing this fairly peacefully, IW does get you started on the "naval" techs that allow your UB and the wonders that make it better. With different neighbors, that would probably be the better choice . . but there aren't many civs ahead of the Zulu when it comes to warring on the next civ over. But I fear I'm repeating an earlier point.

I agree with the Take-Shaka-Down-Now strategy. You've denied him the copper, so if you can knock him down a few pegs before he gets iron, then you don't have to worry about your NC fighting his Impis. Also, since the NC have the -10% city attack, taking down his cities before the big defensive bonuses kick in is important.

Sisuitil,

nice work in the early expansion. but right now I would vote with the pack on HBR asap. you will be able to maximize your leverage of this unit if you can hit shaka before he ever gets access to the only counter unit that will save his ass. the gold coming in from city capture or raze will fuel research, and your cottaging will help pay upkeep.

instead of worring about expanding west you could just take the eastern coast for yourself, effectively giving you 1/2 the continent in the long run. personally I'd take toku next before he ever gets access to his UU.

Kublai will be a good tech trading partner since he is unlikely to be toku's friend.

I would go for alpha after that. if you beat kublai to it you can trade away HBR for IW+ usually since he values that tech soo highly.

NaZ

Round 3: 1200 BC to 775 BC

Hmm, I don't think I've ever posted two rounds on the same day before. Well, this was a pretty short round. And it'll give us all something to do tomorrow at work, right? 'Cause heaven forbid we should actually perform the jobs they pay us to do...

In the last round, I went with the group consensus and it turned out well. This round, I went against it, and, well, we can debate the results, though many of them haven't played out yet. I think I made the right decision, but we'll see.

While I understood why several of you were pushing for Horseback Riding, when I added up the turns required to (a) research the tech, (b) build barracks and stables, and (c) build Numidian Cavalry, I kind of cringed. That math didn't add up to a quick take-down of Shaka, which was what everyone thought could be achieved by going that route.

I looked back over the posts and wound up agreeing with myself. Iron Working was just going to reveal so much strategic information that could be vital to know very soon: the location of iron, if Shaka has any for Impis, and the flexibility to expand into the west for a commerce site and the marble. And within about 13 or 14 turns, unlike the 30 or more it would probably take to have NCs available.

So...



Don't despair; I didn't completely ignore everyone's advice. Wanting to relieve VoU's indigestion, I switched Hadrumetum to working the rice:



Once the Archer was done I started building a Worker. I also made the Work Boat do an about-face and explore the Zulu coast a little before turning back to the north and the clams.

Once I had an archer in that city, I sent its Warrior out to explore the north. (Another Warrior survived a hilltop battle with his barb counterpart. I have him a Woodsman I promotion, but his exploration was delayed by having to heal for a few turns.) The Warrior came across a tribal village, of all things:



Guarded by a Warrior, too. I dispatched an Axeman to take care of this while the Warrior continued exploring.

Meanwhile, Shaka saw the light and converted:



I checked, and Tokugawa was "Pleased" with him before the conversion, so even if I'd started a phony war with Shaka, I still would have received the demerit with Toku. Best to wait, then, until I'm ready.

My Axeman arrived to take on the Warrior guarding the goody hut, and it popped for a Scout.



Better than a kick in the teeth, and I denied it to the AI. I need to explore the north anyway, right? Besides, the Scout may just prove his worth shortly, as you'll see.

In 775 BC, I finally finished researching Iron Working, after a bit of a delay when the gold ran out.



I had inserted an Archer into Carthage's queue to delay the Settler and provide a protector for whatever city I found. I wanted to know where iron was before deciding on the city site.

So where is the nearest iron?



Pretty close by. The bad news, though, is that there's no way a city can work both the iron and the gold. Can't be done. So I'll need two more cities here on the coast--neither of them commercial powerhouses. Dang. I think the position of the Iron (and more darn peaks nearby) means that Golden Clam should go 1S of the gold as originally planned. I was thinking along those lines anyway in order to allow more options to place a city to claim the cow tile, which is why I chopped the forest on the tile.

Oh, don't worry too much about that barb Axeman. Once I sent my own Axeman on his hut-popping excursion, I built another anti-barb unit in Utica and sent him up there. So I have a Chariot just south of Hadrumetum that will deal with Barbie-boy.

Meanwhile, I discovered that Shaka does indeed have a source of iron:



A city that close to a rival's borders, right on top of a strategic resource, just cannot be a coincidence. Shaka must have Iron Working. This means he can build Impis, of course, counters to my UU. I'm going to cross my fingers and hope Bulawayo flips to Japan, but I can't count on it, so it will be the first target in the upcoming war.

As for the Scout, lookee what he found on his way up the mountainous east coast:



Another tribal village! Kublai, old boy--you're slippin' in your old age. The Scout will pop that on the next turn. Cross your fingers and hope for a tech. Gold wouldn't suck, but a map or experience kind of would. Oh well, at least, once again, we deny a hut to the AI.

Now here's a look at the cities and their builds:







And the map:





So... did I do the right thing? I think I did, frankly. I now have a better idea about potential opposition Shaka can mount, what units I should bring, and what my primary objective should be.

I have a Settler almost ready in Carthage which I think I should send west to found Marble Arch, which I can do now thanks to IW and the ability to chop jungle. Iron Hoof and Golden Clam can be founded a little later, in that order. With Charismatic and Buddhism, happiness is not a big issue, so gold is not a high priority; with three grains on line, health is also a non-issue for now and so the clams, like the gold, can wait. I am worried about Toku getting the marble before me and Kublai claiming the Iron if I wait too long.

As for techs--Horseback Riding or Alphabet? We might be able to get HBR from Kublai, you know, so I'm leaning towards Alphabet; even if he won't, I should have several cottages and a library in Carthage on-line by then, so it should be much cheaper to research. Also, Shaka likes me for now because of the shared faith, so if I stay peaceful until after Alphabet, I should be able to tech trade with the neighbours quite a bit.

So we may continue REXing and building before taking on Shaka. I think Carthage should build a Libarary and maybe a Granary after the Settler and Archer are done. The other cities should build some Workers, a couple more Settlers, barracks, and units.

And it looks like Axemen and maybe Swordsmen will play a greater role in the Zulu war than the Numidian Cavalry. Don't worry, I think it would be a good idea to turn right around and take down Tokugawa after that, so the NCs will have their day. After that, I could see myself settling back quite happily to the peaceful game we had discussed in the pre-game thread. I'd control around 2/3 of my continent and I think I could share the remainder with Kublai quite admirably.

Sound like a plan?

Not to be the pessimist here, but if you do war against Shaka, you might want to keep in mind the fact that razing cities = room for Toku to move in, whereas conquering cities that far = hefty maintenance costs. Since it looks like your economy is already dropping a tad, I'd suggest setting up a way to continue research so that you can conquer some of Shaka's cities instead of having to raze them (library scientists, code of laws, or currency being the three outs I'd think of - cottages might take too long to grow to the size necessary to offset distance costs).

With buddhism taking on, peace may be kept for a while indeed. Maybe early war isn't required so much. And thus the builder in me rejoices - let there be new cities and many cottages to fill the coffers and fuel the research

Now that you did go for IW, I don't think delaying Alphabet is an option anymore. That simply has to be the next tech, with HBR traded for or researched after that, or maybe other options present themselves. As much as I'd like to see Numidians in action, I would play Hannibal's Financial trait for the maximum when allowed. Just make sure you build at least a token unit to serve as mascot before getting to guilds and knights

I do agree on the city order: first the lush jungles, then Iron (but make it fast - library then settler maybe), and finally the golden clams to fill the lands.


Small voices in my head are starting to get through to me though, asking why has Shaka been designated as the first target already?
I would go through full situational evaluation before launching the First Zuluan Wars, as I'm not really sure if that's the best way to go. Then again, my abilities in the warfronts are largely untested.

First I'd point that while Toku, when warmed up, is not a bad guy to hang with, he still will trade out only such techs that everyone but you knows. Both Kublai and Shaka are more willing on the tech trades, with Kublai requiring a third and Shaka half of the civs they have contact with to have a tech before they will part with it. Basically, for a friendly buddy techup we're all going to space game, anyone but Toku is preferable.

Next, when are these guys at their most dangerous? Well, Shaka's UU is there already, and is the natural counter to yours. Kublai might be training Keshiks already. Toku, however, will have to bide his time and wait for maces - but when the Samurai march out of the barracks, he's very dangerous.
If that is the case - Shaka now at the peak of his power, Kublai for the same time as your Numidians, then isn't it better to give Toku a kick or two so that when the era of Samurai arrives, he's small enough to not be able to threaten you with the sharp edge of katana?

When looking at the map to see the current power and potential of the three, it seems to me that Shaka is surrounded, hemmed in, with little land and nowhere to go. His claim over the iron is culturally weak - if he doesn't do something about the culture then Bulawayo will eventually flip - to the Holy Buddhist Kyoto. This means that he IS dangerous, like a cornered rat: there's nowhere to go, so he will bare his teeth and sharpen the spears and axes (and build some chariots to go I guess). He WILL go somewhere, by force. And he can only go north (marching towards the magnificient Carthage) or west (the Holy Kyoto).

Toku has claimed a nice chunk of land. He can continue expanding northwards, and has space in the icy south for fisheries (we don't even know much of what there is). Not only does the Holy Japanese Empire look (on the map) stronger than the Zuluan Empire, but it also has more potential in growth.

In the north, there are vast areas of land for Kublai to claim. Not to say that he can't expand southwards as well. The Mongol Hordes can grow and settle a lot, although the land may be a bit harsh. I can't see much of his lands on the map, but the potential to expand a lot definitelly exists.

Thinking about the expansion potential the three empires have, I find Shaka to be the one most likely to go to war early, as he's the only one who has no other method of expansion left. So, should his small empire be crushed early on? Or, if he looks a bit weak and already at the height of his power (by the timing of UUs), maybe we should side with him against Tokugawa? There's no way Shaka can take Kyoto this early, nor can we. The Holy City is highly cultured, and cats will be required before it can be taken. But maybe Shaka could send his hordes there and spend himself in a few centuries of war that he can't win? Maybe he could take a city on the southern coast, reducing the Japanes Empire a bit? Maybe we could profit by taking the city whose borders we barely see, north of the Holy Kyoto, in the jungles - a city that seems to slot nicely with Marble Arch?

With shared religion and mutual military struggle, Shaka might be an agreeable partner for quite a while. Just for as long as he won't, by accident, actually claim some valuable land from Japan.

If this would happen - us first settling Marble Arch, then Iron Hoof, filling in with Golden Clams, then siding with the underdog Shaka against the Holy Emperor (err, wait, the Shogun who's hiding the Holy Emperor somewhere within the palaces of Kyoto) and reducing his influence in the lush (to be, after a few hundred worker turns) jungles, would Japan's power come middle ages be low enough to not worry us much, to allow us to march to Kyoto and claim the Holy City for ourselves? Or would Shaka prove to be more talk than teeth, get crushed by the Japanese, further fueling their strength? And what would the Khan, alone in the North, do in the meantime? Would he find favourites to side with, would he find weaknesses in the Carthagian defenses there?

The intrigue, the suspense - there's so much to think about, so much that could come to be.

I dont see Shaka as being a threat at all. His production is minimal. I see Kubla as being a huge threat because of the land that he can settle. If you war with Shaka, youll get a negative with Toky and Kubla will expand even more building settlers while youre building military for Shaka. I dont think youll be able to match Kublas production once he gets his land. Attacking Kubla and cutting a swath through the center of the landmass with Swords and axes, keeping a few towns there that block Toky from expanding north, and razing his northern cities might be the ticket.
After that, youll be 3 civs sharing the same religion trading techs peacefully with you having the larger land. Yummy!

Elandal said:

If that is the case - Shaka now at the peak of his power, Kublai for the same time as your Numidians, then isn't it better to give Toku a kick or two so that when the era of Samurai arrives, he's small enough to not be able to threaten you with the sharp edge of katana?

Click to expand...

Actually I think we don't need to worry about the Japanese UU so much because the Numidian Cavalry is a good counter to the Japanese Sumarai... given a couple of promotions from the barracks and stables, that and there's also the fact that the leader we're playing is charismatic, needing 25% Less Experience to gain a promotion and their immune to first strikes so the extra first strikes from the sumarai are useless.

The Japanese Sumarai isn't that much of a threat, We dont have to make a beeline to Machinery to counter them with crossbowmen. Our UU will take care of that. Their basically an older version of the Spanish UU, without the extra 1st strikes but has a higher withdrawal chance and can take out Seige units. Their Cheaper too compared to crossbowmen (50H < 60H)

I can reasonably say tha you could basically replace Crossbowmen with your Numidian Cavalry against axes, swords, spears and maces with the appropriate Promotion, they have double movement and have a withdrawal chance, so why not use them in place of your crossbowmen?

Numidian Cavalry+Combat 1 and Shock = 5str + 10% + 75% vs Melee = 9.25

I believe the Numidian Cavalry has quite a reasonable lifespan... you can reasonably use them all the way up till half way through the Middle ages once Knights replace them and pikes can more then counter them so there's no need to rush and beeline to HBR... play the game like usual as if They were like normal Horse Archers (techwise) if there's something more important, do that first.

Well.. that's just my opinion...