ALC Game 11: Carthage/Hannibal

KMadCandy said:

if S is at war with khan but toku and shaka are not, then khan can't become a vassal to them unless S and khan are at a peace treaty, is that how it works? so that's why it's a particular concern here? if they're in on it, khan might cap to them not to us, and it might be a bad thing.

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If Sisiutil is the only one at war with Khan then Khan can either capitulate to Sisiutil or become a voluntary vassal of another (say Toku). If the former happens then everyone is at peace. If the latter happens then Sisuitil will be at war with both Khan and Toku.

If there are more than one civ at war with another then if the common enemy decides to capitulate to either then both are forced into peace. So for example if Sisuitil and Toku are fighting Khan, and Khan capitulates to Toku then Sisuitil also ends up automatically declaring peace with Khan.

Hope that clarifies it.

KMadCandy said:

i play with vassal states off since i get confused enough as it is. but i want to be sure i understand this. voluntarily becoming one and capitulating are different, i know that much.

if S is at war with khan but toku and shaka are not, then khan can't become a vassal to them unless S and khan are at a peace treaty, is that how it works? so that's why it's a particular concern here? if they're in on it, khan might cap to them not to us, and it might be a bad thing.

in the asoka game, mehmed became ragnar's vassal before S had finished him off, which irritated me to no end! but i think that was only possible because all parties were at peace at the time. mehmed knew he was toast so he wanted a protector (there hadn't been a ragnar vs. mehmed fight that i recall).

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A civ can voluntarily capitulate to another civ while the former is at war. I believe the mechanics depend upon your status vis-a-vis the third civ. Correct me if I'm wrong:

I'm at war with Civ A. Civ A capitulates to Civ B.

If I'm at peace with Civ B, and Civ B is "Pleased" or less with me, but we have no other special relationship, Civ B ends up at war with me as a result of becoming Civ A's master.

If Civ B and I are allies against Civ A, however, I become automatically at peace with Civ A.

I think that's how it works, based upon my experience thus far playing the game. Whether Civ B accepts the capitulation offer depends very much on your relationship with them. If Civ B is Friendly with you but not an ally, I don't think it will accept the offer, as it does not want to go to war with you. If Civ B is Pleased or less with you, then it certainly may accept the offer.

That's the concern here--at what point would Kublai Khan capitulate, would he do so to one of my southern neighbours, would they accept, and if they do and I'm at war to my south, what do I do then?

In my off-line games, when this has happened, I've often finished off the vassal while fending off the master. Once the vassal is gone, I make peace with the master. Usually the master's attempt at a war with me are half-hearted at best. Then again, in those games the master was often further away geographically, and was not a crazy jerk like Toku or Shaka.

I think what I'll have to do is once Kublai is close to being finished, I will have to reinforce my southern cities. It should be easy enough--if Kublai is finally weakened, I should be able to peel off some units from the stack and shift them south. We'll see.

yeah but in the new patch, unless they were going to attack you anyway they wont accept your enemy as a vassal

flamingzaroc121 said:

yeah but in the new patch, unless they were going to attack you anyway they wont accept your enemy as a vassal

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Considering the leaders in question are Toku and Shaka, that's cold comfort!

(to Sisiutil)

Sisiutil said:

Correct me if I'm wrong:

I'm at war with Civ A. Civ A capitulates to Civ B.

If I'm at peace with Civ B, and Civ B is "Pleased" or less with me, but we have no other special relationship, Civ B ends up at war with me as a result of becoming Civ A's master.

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I don't think this is quite right. First of all a civ can no capitulate to a civ that it is not at war with, it can only offer to become a voluntary vassal.

When a civ that your at war with enters a voluntary vassal relationship with another I don't think you're diplomatic standing with the new master has any impact on whether you are at war or not (you always end up at war).

The 2.08 patch was supposed to make the prospective new master consider whether it wants to be at war before it accepts the offer of vassalage. So in theory friendly (or pleased?) civs should not end up at war as a result of this process. I don't know if the patch really fixed the problem though.

Sisiutil: looking through the game to date I'm kind of surprised you skipped Tokugawa as your proposed strategy (expand peaceful, beat cr*p out of neighbours, settle down to admire the cherry blossom) would have fitted Tok very nicely.

oh gosh that whole vassal thing is a more confusing mess than i thought! i'm glad you guys are here to bravely face it, and to explain it to me. i'm thankful both to y'all for your help, and to firaxis for making it an optional checkbox *giggle*.

pigswill said:

Sisiutil: looking through the game to date I'm kind of surprised you skipped Tokugawa as your proposed strategy (expand peaceful, beat cr*p out of neighbours, settle down to admire the cherry blossom) would have fitted Tok very nicely.

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I agree, however, everything changed when Kublai founded Christianity and converted. It seemed more likely that fellow Buddhists Toku and Shaka would stay out of my way with Kublai than Kublai not joining in if I warred on Japan. Plus Kublai had the leading score, and I always prefer to take down the leader, if possible.

I want to finish off Kublai one way or another in the next round. That may take some time. After that, we'll need to discuss what to do with Tokugawa and Shaka, let alone everyone else.

By the way, Validator, thanks for your very insightful commentary. It's always good to have a new voice chipping in. And welcome to CFC!!!



P.S.: KMad, you're cute when you giggle.

P.P.S.: Don't tell your husband I said that.

Sisiutil said:

I agree, however, everything changed when Kublai founded Christianity and converted. It seemed more likely that fellow Buddhists Toku and Shaka would stay out of my way with Kublai than Kublai not joining in if I warred on Japan. Plus Kublai had the leading score, and I always prefer to take down the leader, if possible.

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I think she meant that Toku was next to play in the ALC series if you'd kept order, and he would have been good for a peaceful game.

Round 6: 1400 to 1550 AD

Back to a shorter round, and no, I didn't finish Kublai off that quickly. Far from it.

I opened the round feeling pretty good about my prospects. I fended off Mongolian counter-attacks at both Beshbalik and Hippo, and continued to make use of the Numidian Cavalry for clean-up. See below for a face-off between the Carthaginian and Mongolian UUs (of course the Keshik is not at full strength, but I loathe fair fights):



I even earned my next Great General, whom I settled in Utica as a military instructor for the additional XPs:



And then, look what showed up across the border:



Well, dang. The cavalry--just in the nick of frickin' time. I knew Kublai had Nationalism, I should have realized he'd bee-line to a military tech, especially one that enabled the next generation of mounted units of which the AI is so bloody fond.

He quickly upgraded a bunch of his Keshiks and Knights and took out some of my Macemen that were poised to attack Tiflis. I had no effective counter to Cavalry, so I did the only thing I could do:



All things considered, I think I came out of that rather well. Kublai was going crazy upgrading his mounted units and he could have overrun both Beshbalik and Hippo if I'd let things go on. Nevertheless, I had to end the war with my big objective--Kublai gone or vassalized--unaccomplished.

So I settled back for a few turns to rebuild my economy, and to do some tech trading.



A few turns later, I finished researching a valuable tech for trading:



And went around seeing what I could get for it:







And I even managed to pull another switcheroo with the techs:



Also, as a result of those trades, Shaka and Huayna are now "Friendly" with me. Tokugawa, now that he has contact with everyone but Cyrus, has become less useful as a trading partner--however, he is willing to sign a defensive pact with me!

A pity Huayna wouldn't trade Liberalism before. He will now, but I have nothing to offer him for it. I'd like to change to Free Religion to see if that loosens Mehmed's grip on his techs.

So, an interesting round with interesting developments. I'll follow this with a "state of the world" post. The saved game file is below.

The State of the World, 1550 AD

First off, the Domestic Advisor:



As you can see, several civilian builds, but I'm changing back over to military ones. Related to that idea are the civics:



Why related? I'm thinking of building up several Grenadiers, Cavalry, Cannon, and eventually Riflemen in the queues, then switching to Vassalage and Theocracy for a few turns to churn them out. With that done, we'll have a choice: go after Kublai again, or settle back and exist peacefully with a strong military.

Foreign Relations:



Two friendlies, two pleased, two annoyed. I dunno--maybe I should turn peaceful and chase a diplomatic win?

Technologies:



Yeah, I'm still making up for lost ground, though I am keeping up on my own continent. I felt I had no choice but to research Rifling, even though several of the other civs have it. I need a counter to those Cavalry just to be on the safe side. After Rifling, what next? I'd like to research a good trading tech to see what else I can get.

Trade deals:



I had to put plantations on all the sugar tiles--turns out I have a monopoly!

Power:



Seeing Toku jump above me like that makes me nervous. I'm also hoping to be able to delete some old, obsolete units once I have some modern replacements for them.

Demographics:



Yes, I still suck. Thank you.

And the map:



Including, thanks to the peace deal with Kublai, the other continent:



So the real question for the next round is simple: war or peace? We could get some defensive pacts to ensure we remain at peace, then bee-line to the UN and try for a diplomatic victory. The other option is to finish Rifling, build up the military, and go after Kublai again. He'll be less formidable if I have Cannon and Riflemen to counter his Cavalry. He still doesn't have Chemistry or Rifling himself. That, I think, would lead more to a Space Race win, though diplomatic might still be viable, depending on who's chummy with Kublai.

The dark horse victory condition is domination, which I say based upon the map. That other continent is a heckuva lot smaller than mine. I might be able to claim a domination win just by conquering my own continent. Anyone wanna do the math for me there? Failing that, most of Mehmed's cities are coastal. Syrian doctrine, anyone?

This is important--I need to commit to and pursue a victory condition in this next round. So which one should it be? I myself am inclined to give diplomatic a whirl. I've only had one diplomatic win in the ALC series (as the Incas), and at this stage, it seems like the "easiest" victory to pursue. Or maybe that should read "quickest". I feel I made some mistakes in the very early going of this game, which is why I'm so far behind. I'm kind of anxious to wrap it up and move on to the next one.

"All things considered, I think I came out of that rather well. Kublai was going crazy upgrading his mounted units and he could have overrun both Beshbalik and Hippo if I'd let things go on. Nevertheless, I had to end the war with my big objective--Kublai gone or vassalized--unaccomplished."

you came out of it fine. he paid you to not kick his butt after all!

"So I settled back for a few turns to rebuild my economy, and to do some tech trading."

i love seeing the trade switcheroos, like military tradition in this case.

"This is important--I need to commit to and pursue a victory condition in this next round. So which one should it be? I myself am inclined to give diplomatic a whirl. I've only had one diplomatic win in the ALC series (as the Incas), and at this stage, it seems like the "easiest" victory to pursue. Or maybe that should read "quickest". I feel I made some mistakes in the very early going of this game, which is why I'm so far behind. I'm kind of anxious to wrap it up and move on to the next one."

i love these threads, but i know they'll only be around for as long as they're fun for you to play/post/read and write. maybe one time we should try to see how stunningly we can pull off a spectacular defeat? but of course, i'm the newbiest one here, i never offer words of wisdom just questions and babbling. i leave that useful stuff to the people who actually, like, know what they're talking about.

p.s. my hubby agrees with your p.s.

Sisuitil,

Well didn't that take an ugly turn.

One key correction to your recap of the situation. Khan does have Chemistry (and just to prove it he's positioned a grenadier on your northern border ). The only tech you have on Khan at this point is Steel. And given that Khan has a GNP advantage on you I wouldn't be surprised if he get's rifling rather quickly.

I'm not a big fan of diplo wins. IMO the way Firaxis chose to implement it makes it something you almost have to fall into instead of a victory you can actually play for. Of course maybe you know something I don't.

Seige still rules. Concentrate on building cannon while heading towards artillery tech-wise.

Edit: Had a look at the save. Not sure about diplomatic as it stands; you've only got 12% of population; Cyrus would be your rival; you'd probably get some votes from your continent but probably some abstentions so its not worth aiming for UN.

In fact there's no obvious win as it stands. Space may be an option but you need a lot more territory which means more war. Stacks of cannon seems the only way forwards (but what do I know).

The more I think about it the more I see that the early buildup phase from Round 4: 775 BC to 620 AD was a mistake.

From my experience, if you have got decent city sites for all purposes go for a peaceful buildup instead of war. In your case with one city in the jungle and one in the desert it seems that you fell an awful lot behind there staying peaceful.


Nevertheless nothing to do but soldier on, no? You still got an awfully big army lying around but with the diplomatic situation being so nice, it might be a good idea, to keep a low profile till you got cannons and then deliver another hopefully fatal blow to Kublai. But imo, only do so if the diplomatic situation permits (No mali for you declared war on our friends).


I don´t think staying peaceful is the way to go, as you still haven´t got better or more land then your enemies.

I'm 100% with pigswill.
In this situation you want a domestic advisor showing
canon
canon
canon
canon
canon
canon
canon
canon
+ draftee riflemen.

Is physics still a good research? (meaning tradable, + a free GS)
I'd go for biology first if the GS is gone.

Hi Sis,

Long time no see! I was delighted to see the ALC series is still going strong.

This game is pretty strange. One thing that jumps out at me: you are not playing to your strengths.

You haven't built a single cothon yet. The extra trade route seems like something that could really be leveraged, but nothing.

I don't see that you've taken much advantage of the Charismatic trait. Some battles to reap the xp bonus... well, you always have some battles anyway, right? The key point of Charismatic seems to be the happiness bonuses, and I don't see where those have come into play here.

And then of course, the Numidian Cavalry. Ahem.

-- Granted, the NumCav may be one of those inconveniently timed units: too late for an early rush, too soon for medieval war. But still. Looking back over the thread, I have the impression of you saying, "well, the NC will be good for a long time -- I'll just research a couple of more techs and then get around to it". And then, boom, it was obsolete.

It always seemed to me that part of the point of the ALCs was to discover how each leader was different and interesting, and how we could have fun playing each one. The impression I'm getting so far is that, well, Hannibal actually isn't much... he's just another Financial leader, with a weak UU and an uninteresting UB.

Now this may indeed be the case! With so many leaders, it would be surprising if one or two of them weren't duds.

Still... I wonder if I'm missing something here. Is Hannibal really that bad, or is this just the way this game evolved?

cheers,


Waldo

^^vormuir
It's true (or better said, it's also my feeling) that for the time being this game is kind of flavourless . Not meaning bad, or not well written but meaning no hard focus on the traits or UB or UU.
1) The cothon won't be obsolete, but the rewards won't be large (not a lot of coastal cities, not built early enough to really care)
2) The NC is obsolete now, but hopefully the upgrading to good units can still be useful? I would have gone for (should have said so earlier maybe )
- mass NC
- cavalry slingshot
- great merchant
= massive upgrade to flanking cavalries.

Too late now. But it's still early enough to make good use of charismatic and financial! Go for it sisiutil!

I would at least make Hippo another research power-house by working more cottages there instead of mines. And I think, building an observatory instead of a bank would be more beneficial as long as you leave the science slider high enough.

Lost Crumb