Department of Stranger Affairs

I calculated about 4.9 turns if we went to bureaucracy and relayed that to General W it would take 6 turns (5 + 1 anarchy), so I guess I was in the ballpark; also affecting this is currency acquisition and trade routes and scientists, difficult calculations. They have at least 2 votes to do the following deal:

Josh says:
Epsilon Gives: Monarchy, currency, Polytheism, Literature and construction (=total 1,350 beakers)
Piffle Gives: Calendar, machinery, and archery (= total 1,110 beakers)

Josh says:
and all is square. no one owes anyone anything


Problems: 1) Does having any of these techs influence our GS picking philosophy? 2) We cant revolt to bureaucracy for another couple of turns due to the recent revolution, right?

We also discussed letting the other teams see that we are actively trading. We can do the transfers discreetly.

Epsilon knows Innovia.

woot

dunno answers to your problems though..

killercane said:

Josh says:
Epsilon Gives: Monarchy, currency, Polytheism, Literature and construction (=total 1,350 beakers)
Piffle Gives: Calendar, machinery, and archery (= total 1,110 beakers)


Problems: 1) Does having any of these techs influence our GS picking philosophy? 2) We cant revolt to bureaucracy for another couple of turns due to the recent revolution, right?

Click to expand...

To answer your questions:
(1) Our GS will offer Math before Philo, so we would need to get that out of the way.
(2) You are correct. We can research Machinery before we would be allowed to revolt. Plus, I don't know that I would want to risk losing Philo with another revolt to bureau anyway.

also:

(3) We cannot accept Currency, Lit, or Construction without getting Math first.
(4) We don't have Calendar to give to them. Do we still plan on asking Aloha for a Calendar-Currency trade? If so, they will know we are trading with Epsilon and all of the secrecy is for naught ...

And finally, if we are going to truly partner with Epsilon, what about using our GM for a trade mission and splitting the bounty with Epsilon in exchange for CS instead of lightbulbing CS?

Great Sci list from top

Writing
Mathematics
Scientific Method
Physics
Education
Printing Press
Fiber Optics
Computers
The Wheel
Philosophy

So no problem there.

GM list

Currency
Banking
Economics
Corporation
Metal Casting
Code of Laws
Mining
Constitution
Wheel
Pottery
Sailing
Paper
Railroad
Industrialism
Monarchy
Civil Service
Guilds
Fascism
Mass Media
Agriculture
Writing
Mathematics
Printing Press
Flight
Machinery
Replaceable Parts
Satellites
Mysticism
Priesthood
Divine Right
Nationalism
Calendar
Scientific Method
Medicine
Horseback Riding
Compass
Steam Power
Future Tech

We could use him for paper, or for the gold. Im thinking gold looks pretty good right now. Edit: woops, cross post.

killercane said:

Epsilon knows Innovia.

Click to expand...

I assumed that they knew Loco, as well. What is their "nearly iron-clad evidence" that Innovia and Loco are in bed together if they only know 1 party?

(3) We cannot accept Currency, Lit, or Construction without getting Math first.
(4) We don't have Calendar to give to them. Do we still plan on asking Aloha for a Calendar-Currency trade? If so, they will know we are trading with Epsilon and all of the secrecy is for naught ...

And finally, if we are going to truly partner with Epsilon, what about using our GM for a trade mission and splitting the bounty with Epsilon in exchange for CS instead of lightbulbing CS?

Click to expand...

We are getting math and CS this turn from Aloha. Then calendar next turn from them. Epsilon is sending us currency as soon as we have math, and we send calendar to them on turn 2 from now. We send currency on to them when we get it.

Once machinery is researched we send to Epsilon and Aloha. Epsilon doesnt know Aloha so they cant see that we sent it to them. Epsilon hasnt mentioned exclusivity on machinery at all so no big deal.

Epsilon has construction and will send it 10-14 turns from now or whenever we ask for it. The only interest in delay is to hide our deal. We send construction to Aloha.

When do we want monarchy and polytheism? I would guess we would want monarchy when we revolt to bureaucracy so we can do both and grow the capital.

Conroe said:

I assumed that they knew Loco, as well. What is their "nearly iron-clad evidence" that Innovia and Loco are in bed together if they only know 1 party?

Click to expand...

I dont know. We could probably get this information in an exchange.

Another thought: Aloha is researching Music. Epsilon doesnt have too many research choices and may do the same. We could sell information to both of them for something (good will?) on who is going to get there first.

Wow!

I could have swore I was sober when I got up this morning ... but after reading your trade deal ... I feel like I've got a hangover!

Ok ... Epsilon says we are square after this. What about Aloha? Are we square with them or do we still owe them something or vice versa?

We are square with Aloha after we send construction. We have to send it within 20 turns.

Trade Recap:

• Aloha gives us: CS(800), Math(250), Calendar(350) = 1400 Beakers
• Epsilon gives us: Monarchy(300), Currency(400), Polytheism(100), Literature(200), Construction(350) = 1350 Beakers
• We give Aloha: Machinery(700), Currency(400), Construction(350) = 1450 Beakers
• We give Epsilon: Machinery(700), Calendar(350), Archery(60) = 1110 Beakers
• Aloha gives Innovia: Machinery(700) = 700 Beakers

Wow! Killercane!

It looks like Aloha comes out 50 beakers ahead in the deal, but they did "gift" us a turn off of CoL.

I vote we accept the deal.

I'll play the turn and set our research to Machinery as soon as a few more folks chime in and vote.

Awesome! Do it. 'Kane you rock.

killer remind me to never negotiate against you

Sublime, Killercane.

I take it we are agreed. Epsilon said that they would like Archery right away. Do we want monarchy right away as well?

We have wines so monarchy would be most useful I'd think.

Whomp said:

We have wines so monarchy would be most useful I'd think.

Click to expand...

Indeed it would! Unfortunately, your turnplayer assumed that Monarchy would be delayed and dispatched the Workers (we really do need more!) in the wrong direction ...

I did this because of this note ...

killercane said:

Epsilon has construction and will send it 10-14 turns from now or whenever we ask for it. The only interest in delay is to hide our deal. We send construction to Aloha.

When do we want monarchy and polytheism? I would guess we would want monarchy when we revolt to bureaucracy so we can do both and grow the capital.

Click to expand...

I rather extrapolated a bit, I'm afraid ... I figured the Workers would not be needed back in TC for at least another 5 turns.



Which brings me to a question ... How much of our dealings with Epsilon are we trying to hide from Aloha? Are we also trying to be secretive with Epsilon concerning our Aloha trades?

No probs Boss. Having monarchy will still help us down the road.

Explaining to Aloha is easily explained. They backed us into a corner by forcing us to trade with Epsilon. Simple as that.

Epsilon is should only be a conversation when they ask who we know and then the real negotiations begin. They may pull their 20% deal off the table. We'll see how much they want a friend.

Dear KillerCane and all of Piffledom,

The Leader, may he live forever, sends you his warmest regards. We are most pleased to be engaged in such sweeping trade with your glorious people. However, despite the fact that our current deal will leap both of our teams ahead over 1,000 beakers (!) - we hope that this is only the beginning.

As this deal will conclude shortly after you discover Machinery, we have begun to study where our teams might go after that – and we have a proposal that we hope you'll find exciting.

We propose the following:
After Machinery, Piffle studies Paper(600 ), then Philosophy(800 - and founds a religion), and then Printing Press(1,600 ).

Meanwhile, Epsilon learns Compass(400 ) and Optics(600 ) and then Education(1,800 ).

The trades could work like this.
Phase 1
Epsilon gives Compass & Optics(1,000 )
Piffle gives Paper(600 )

Phase 2
Epsilon gives Theology(500 )
Piffle gives Philosophy(800 )

Phase 3
Epsilon gives Education(1,800 )
Piffle gives Printing Press(1,600 )

Epsilon gives = 3,300
Piffle gives = 3,000

Then – for the final show-stopping act, one of our teams goes for Liberalism(1,400 ) while the other team gets another key tech – and then we swap Liberalism + Free tech for the key tech from the other team.
For example:
The stronger research team could get Nationalism (1,800) while the other team gets Liberalism (1,400)– then both teams choose to grab Military Tradition (2,000) as our shared Free tech, resulting in both teams getting all 3 techs as the reward for this trusting trading arrangement.

This last part may sound a bit vague, but we thought it might be best to leave it more open to change based on whatever the world situation happens to be… ie, if we want a military route or a peaceful route.

What do you think of this proposal?
We are, of course, open to negotiation if you have a better idea!

Your Brothers to the North,

By the hand of Foreign Minister General_W
Servant of the Leader
Epsilon Team!

as much as I despise the past deals of Epsilon.. they are starting to grow on me like a bad foot fungus.

To be honest, Epsilon's plan does have merit. Although, the choices of techs to research leads me to believe that they want the circumnav bonus. From a tech standpoint alone, though, I do think it is a fair deal. However, consumating this plan does require us to crawl into bed with Epsilon.

I know some folks have wanted for us to come up with a way to be friendly with both Epsilon and Aloha. Choosing sides only at some point in the distant future. Would that still be possible if we accept this plan (or a plan along these lines)?

I also think we need to send a reply back to them PDQ. Even if it is only that we are thinking about it. Or we could tell them that we are tinkering with a counter proposal -- something along the lines of we are anxious to get access to Harbors for our Great Lighthouse? It would also be nice to get them to tell us what they are researching while we are on Machinery. My guess is they are half-way through Compass at the moment.