ALC Game 12: Japan/Tokugawa

Warrior NW. Unless he sees Gold, settle in place. Pottery-Hunting-Mining-BW, unless other resources demand worker techs. Worker-warrior-settler. Cottage-cottage-camp-camp-cottage-cottage. We're going to want to be working the flood plains early for growth, so the first couple of cottages come before the camps. That many flood plains will provide plenty of food, so there's no need for farms. The capital can provide enough commerce for the whole empire, allowing you to target other cities for production, or specialists, or whatever.

peace,
lilnev

Fierabras said:

I like to play a shadow game. Can we have the download for the starting position soon?

Click to expand...

Oops. Thanks for catching that and pointing it out. I'll post the saved game file tonight. I'll also move the Warrior 1N (seems like the best compromise) and post the results. I think I'll end up settling in place, as many of you are advocating.

We'll base the first tech goal upon what is revealed by the Warrior and by the initial city borders. I'm leaning towards Hunting, though, to make those elephant tiles productive and maybe to build a Scout for exploration. And I prefer building a Warrior first while the city grows to 2 pop. The Worker (2nd build) comes out faster when there are 2 citizens.

lilnev,

I like your worker task order better than what I proposed and will use it in similar situations if I encounter them. since sisuitil will be working flood plains regardless it would be better to take advantage of those cottages. so maybe go

pottery, hunting, archery, mining, bronze, ah, writing ??

build:

worker, warrior, settler, barracks, archer, settler, archer, worker, archer

by then copper should be up??

NaZ

Elandal said:

@Eggolas
Camped plains elephant is a grass hill mine with extra coin, so mines are lower priority than camps.

Click to expand...

With Warlords, I like to get mines up and running so that they have the possibility of producing a random strategic resource later. Also, aside from the initial camp/elephant, I prefer to cottage the second elephant. I'm not going to trade ivory and give an AI neighbor war elephants.

Those are just my preferences and I see the validity in your approach. However, it may simply be anectodal evidence, but since Warlords most recent patch, mines sure seem like they produce gems, gold, silver, iron and copper with greater frequency.

Wow this is really calling for CE if futurehermit says cottage! I think this is great, with some early production to get up to a few cities, and enough cottageable terrain at the capital to support your empire well into the age of Samurai. (read bureaucracy)

The only thing about random resources popping up with mines is it's so random. Certainly getting gold or silver would make up for not having a cottage, and popping copper in the BFC would be nice, but it's not guaranteed to already be there and my experience is it usually takes a while for a random strategic resource to pop in a simple mine.

NaZdReG has a tech order I think is ideal to start with, although it can be adjusted as land is explored. I'd be tempted to push Mining and BW ahead of Archery if Sisutil opts to build a Barracks in his capital, so he has Archers with additional promotions, as I'd imagine he could have all three by the time the Barracks is finished, and would know earlier where Copper is.

Sisiutil said:

And I prefer building a Warrior first while the city grows to 2 pop. The Worker (2nd build) comes out faster when there are 2 citizens.

Click to expand...

Maybe it's just me, but I just tried a few random starts going either worker first or growing to size 2 and then building a worker and city 2 always came online slower the second way. Am I missing something here?

Worker first is dumb if he's got nothing to do because you're pursuing religions, but if you hit the worker techs early then it generally seems beneficial. VoU's normally good at evaluating this sort of thing...

Sisiutil said:

I'll also move the Warrior 1N (seems like the best compromise)

Click to expand...

If moving the settler NW before settling is still a possibility, then moving the warrior N doesn't really makes sense to me. You'll only reveal 3 tiles by moving there, while moving NW allows you to reveal 5 tiles including 2 of the tiles you'll reveal by moving N. The only tile you'll reveal by moving N but not NW is going to be in the BFC of your capital regardless of which site you choose so revealing it doesn't help make the decision. Moving NW gives you knowledge of 4 tiles that will be in the BFC for the NW location but not the settle-in-place location. I'm not sure what you'd have to see in those 4 tiles to make you decide not to settle in place, but you might as well find out what's there before settling.


Before deciding on your early research I think you need to consider how much whipping you plan to do in your capital. If the previous ALC games are any indication it will be a significant amount . In that case you need farms on a couple of the FPs before starting on cottages. So Hunting then Agriculture seems like a good research start. Your capital can then build worker followed by scout (if you're going to build a scout it needs to be built ASAP).

Of course if a food resource does show up on the other side of the hills that would change things.

I would go for build in place. I would also put an emphasis on getting hunting and pottery early either to make this a commerce monster or for a granary and severe whipping with some agriculture being done. I would tend for the former myself, with some use of the whip, but not in a dependant way, but then I'm new to Monarch. I'm in for a shadow game too. I'm glad there is a new ALC starting right now as I've wanted to shadow one to improve my game.

Interesting question of which way to move the warrior. Would you want to reveal tiles that come into play only if you move the settler NW or tiles that would be part of the current fat cross (by moving 1 NE). It's unlikely that move resources (other than ivory) would be revealed adjacent to the current ivory, but the tile 2N, 1E might be a food resource causing some debate about whether or not to move the settler 1 NW.

So, I'd vote for moving 1 NE with the warrior first.

funny how people disagree with me but then lilnev says the same thing pretty much and gets general support

anyways, yes worker comes out faster at 2 pop but your tiles get developed faster if worker first, which is something I prefer. if you don't do worker first then at size 2 you're working 2 undeveloped tiles.

Eggolas said:

Interesting question of which way to move the warrior. Would you want to reveal tiles that come into play only if you move the settler NW or tiles that would be part of the current fat cross (by moving 1 NE). It's unlikely that move resources (other than ivory) would be revealed adjacent to the current ivory, but the tile 2N, 1E might be a food resource causing some debate about whether or not to move the settler 1 NW.

So, I'd vote for moving 1 NE with the warrior first.

Click to expand...

This is a rather insignificant topic to warrant such debate, but I'm still not seeing the logic of moving the warrior either N or NE. If the tile 2N1E is a food resource its going to be within the BFC regardless of the capital's location, so I don't see how that would be a reason to settle 1 NW of the starting location. I agree that its very unlikely there will be a cluster of resources revealed to the NW, but I see no reason not to check it out before settling.

Sisuitil, After giving it a little more thought I think you might want to consider moving the warrior NW and if you don't find anything worthwhile go ahead and settle in place before posting the next update. My reason for suggesting this is that it seems there's a near consensus on settling in place at the moment, and knowing if there are any food resources on the other side of the hills (which we'll know after settling) will be important when discussing the initial research and build orders.

Starting Position - Continued

I agree with Validator. We're getting into territory where angels dance upon pin heads.

I moved the Warrior 1NE:



The main thing that this reveals is an agriculture resource (irrigated, too!) within the BFC if we settle in place, which supports that idea, and it seems to be the general consensus anyway. Is everyone agreed on that?

I'm all for trying to do things a little differently, so I'm getting sold on the idea of building a Worker first while researching Pottery. It's a variation I haven't tried before. Unless you folks now think Agriculture should come first to get the wheat on-line ASAP and reduce the research cost of Pottery? I think Hunting should follow those two techs to get the Elephants and their +1 going to support what I expect to be rapid growth in the capital.

I'll try to play the next round tomorrow night, but I'm going out of town for a business day trip and may not be able to, so it may have to wait until the weekend.

An agreeing nod from me for settling in place and for the worker first. I am normally a patient waiter for the jump to size 2 before my worker, but it intrigues me how much of a headstart those nice cottages will have.

Niiiiice. I guess our growth issues are solved.

Worker First is always a good strategy if he's got lots of stuff to do, and your worker will be VERY busy for a long time -- at least three FPs to cottage (the rest can come later), two elephants to camp, wheat to farm, some hills to mine, and roads to build connecting everything. Ideally, you want your worker improving tiles before your city needs them, and already you'll be playing catch-up -- if you let the city grow to size 2 before building the worker, you'll be working unimproved tiles for quite some time, not very efficient. Also, improving flood plains takes forever on Epic speed (8 turns for a cottage, 10 for a farm!)

Definitely Agri then Pottery, though you might want to put Hunting first so you can build a Scout immediately after the worker. Things are looking good -- who knows, maybe there's cows on the other side of those hills? Then the city will truly be über.

Can you post the starting save?

jerVL/kg said:

Things are looking good -- who knows, maybe there's cows on the other side of those hills? Then the city will truly be über.

Click to expand...

What I'm really hoping for is to have copper, horses, or iron show up over there. I'll trade cows for any of those.

Cabledawg said:

Can you post the starting save?

Click to expand...

D'OH!!!!!!!!

I can't believe I keep forgetting to do that!

Give me a minute or two and I'll put it in the first post, where it belongs.

Riverside weed what is the random generator smoking. Now for some iron in them hills and horses on the grass plains to the right and you are set. Or are we asking for too much This game is going to be crazy I can just feel it. The start is perfect.

A very promising start.

I would research Agriculture before Pottery. My worker workorder would be: farm resource, build a cottage, build camp, build camp.

This is going to be another interesting ALC game.

Rob.