ALC Game 12: Japan/Tokugawa

Yes, I agree that Fredrick is a sure thing. Mehmed would take more military adeptness. I also agree that it would be easier, and quicker, to take Munich by force rather than making the Germans very jealous of your theatres and your geisha. On a sidebar, if civs were to ever have two UUs geisha should really be Japan’s second – they could be gifted to other civs to improve diplomatic relations (just imagine the look on Cyrus’ face), or, alternately, they could be used to lure Great Generals from other civs to Japan. There should also be a dangerously inappropriate movie clip that goes along with their actions.

I suppose what I didn’t make clear was that taking out Mehmed early on gives an immediate advantage on probably the rest of the world and for the rest of the game. Right now, I would hazard a guess that another powerful civ is acquiring some other mediocre civ much like the case with Sis & Fredrick. If Sis takes over Fred then S will be neck-and-neck with that other civ until S takes down Mehmed, and that would probably put him in decent situation to win. So I have no problems with an attack on Freddie-boy, that way to win is a pretty safe bet. It is a good move, but it is fairly by-the-book. However, taking out Mehmed now, facilitates an out-and-out dominating victory, one which could see S rule this continent early, and allow S to launch serious naval attacks on other civs (which I always find exciting and might allow for a variant on the strategy I suggested in the pre-game show – that’s my not-so-hidden agenda). I would make the most of my UU and take down Mehmed. But that’s me and sounds like the group is not swayed.

Seipheroth said:

I would make the most of my UU and take down Mehmed. But that’s me and sounds like the group is not swayed.

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I thought the general plan would be best summed up as:

Fred ASAP with cats/elephants.
Mehmed next with samurai/cats.
Caesar third with samurai/grenadiers and cats/cannon (will depend how quickly Mehmed can be subdued).

The start looking overseas.

I played the next round last night and will post it tonight. I'm in the middle of a war. With whom? Let's just say I've decided not to play it safe in this game.

so cavalier..maybe we should demand an emperor lvl ALC for the next game.

i knew the early warring was going to be fun in this one. can't wait to see who's eating crow. any bets that Sisiutil's trying to pull a war on two fronts?

LosBlack said:

so cavalier..maybe we should demand an emperor lvl ALC for the next game.

i knew the early warring was going to be fun in this one. can't wait to see who's eating crow. any bets that Sisiutil's trying to pull a war on two fronts?

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There's cavalier, and then there's crazy. Just one front.

either that one front is yours against everyone else or you're pushing your luck leaving single warriors for garrison duty and attacking multiple cities with 3 unit stacks at 45% odds..

Sisiutil said:

I played the next round last night and will post it tonight. I'm in the middle of a war. With whom? Let's just say I've decided not to play it safe in this game.

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Can't wait to see how the is going.

LosBlack said:

either that one front is yours against everyone else or you're pushing your luck leaving single warriors for garrison duty and attacking multiple cities with 3 unit stacks at 45% odds..

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Your second theory is not too terribly far from the truth. Give me a handful of hours to get home and post the update and you'll see.

On a broader note, we may need to discuss bumping up the challenge after this game or the next one. I may be counting chickens, but I'm starting to feel like it may be time to move up another level--especially now that aelf has graciously vacated Emperor for Immortal. Either that, or start playing with Blake's improved AI.

Let's count the chickens when we have them
But if you feel Monarch isn't enough, I'd like to see Blake's AI more than Emperor level. But that'll be subject for next pre-game thread - for now I'm waiting to see what's this dangerous attack you're trying to pull off

Sisiutil said:

Your second theory is not too terribly far from the truth. Give me a handful of hours to get home and post the update and you'll see.

On a broader note, we may need to discuss bumping up the challenge after this game or the next one. I may be counting chickens, but I'm starting to feel like it may be time to move up another level--especially now that aelf has graciously vacated Emperor for Immortal. Either that, or start playing with Blake's improved AI.

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there's crazy..and there's cavalier.. once i started to get a good feel for the game (Vanilla 1.61 no improved AI by any means) i felt the same way after my first two monarch games. then i realized it was time to mix it up a little and try something other than standard continents with 7 civs.. so whitebread, so pedestrian. but this being the ALC, you need the standardized settings to some degree; this discussion has been beaten into the ground in past threads. so bump it up if you need to, but i would shadow this game offline on emperor first with Toku, then with somebody else before i made that decision if i were you.

is that standard hours or relativistic ones?

Elandal said:

Let's count the chickens when we have them
But if you feel Monarch isn't enough, I'd like to see Blake's AI more than Emperor level. But that'll be subject for next pre-game thread - for now I'm waiting to see what's this dangerous attack you're trying to pull off

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awwwww i'd not like that. i use the HoF mod so i can't use blake's. i learn a LOT from these games but that would make a bunch of things not apply.

and yes i'm waiting!!!!! it's tonight! oh wait i'm on the other coast from you.

Sisiutil said:

On a broader note, we may need to discuss bumping up the challenge after this game or the next one. I may be counting chickens, but I'm starting to feel like it may be time to move up another level--especially now that aelf has graciously vacated Emperor for Immortal. Either that, or start playing with Blake's improved AI.

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Move up to Emperor if you like, but I vote against using Blake's mod, for the same reasons KMadCandy mentioned -- we should keep these games as "vanilla" as possible.

Round 4, Part 1: 20 AD to 575 AD

As I started the round, I had to decide who to attack: Germany or the Ottomans? As everyone pointed out, taking on Germany looked like a sure thing. Well, something about that bugged me, along with Mehmed's place atop the score chart. I moved my War Elephants, Swordsmen, and Catapults into position on Kyoto's northern border. An Ottoman worker was there, laying down a road, blissfully unaware of the danger just across the river from the pastoral setting of the banana plantation...



A free Worker... how could I resist? Not to mention Konya's meagre garrison of 2 Archers, whom my War Elephants would totally pwn.



I incurred a -1 diplo hit from Freddy and Julius, but they both remained "Pleased". As my forces moved in on Konya, I got some good news in my capital:



Hah! Take that, Mehmed! Beat you to the GL!

With that feat accomplished, I switched civics:



While in anarchy, I captured Konya using Catapults, Elephants, and Swordsmen:



That cleared a path to Ottoman territory to the north.

A few turns later, someone beat me to the Hanging Gardens. Oh well. I got a handful of gold for my trouble, and didn't waste any forests on it. I finished researching Metal Casting and went to see what I could get for it:





A pretty good couple of trades, I thought; I usually sell Literature on the cheap once the GL is done. And as you can see, I then started researching Code of Laws. Not only am I going to need courthouses, it's also on the path to Civil Service and Samurai. Once I get Machinery, watch out.

I then got my first Great Scientist a little while later:



I debated waiting a couple of turns to use him for Philosophy, or using him for an Academy. Since the UU is a priority, more so that founding Taoism, building Angkor Wat, or winning the Liberalism race, I went for the Academy to rush it along as much as I could. That trimmed 1 turn off CoL right away, so I felt pleased with the decision. I can always use the next GS, who will follow pretty quickly on this one's heels, for Philosophy.

My meagre stack of 2 Elephants, 2 Swordsmen, 4 Catapults, and 1 Axeman (my upgraded Woodsman II Warrior) kept making progress:



Konya was merely necessary. Ankara, with its gems, is a definite prize--not to mention over 200 gold, which allowed me to keep researching at 60% even though the slider's in the red.

I quickly dispatched a War Elephant to pillage that horse pasture you see to the city's north. I'm pretty sure it's Mehmed's only source of horses. He was starting to send Horse Archers at Kyoto, so I wanted to put paid to that. I then started marching my stack and reinforcements towards Istanbul.

I left a Protective Archer and a War Elephant in each captured city; a bit risky, but it proved sufficient... for now.

Several turns later, I finished the penultimate piece in my UU's puzzle:



I switched civics to Bureaucracy right away, and started researching Machinery. We're so close! Woo hoo!

And none too soon. In the north, things were getting dicey. Mehmed, as I fully expected, bee-lined to Feudalism and upgraded every Archer he had to a Longbowman. Istanbul had three of the cursed things, along with a Catapult and a Swordsman. I stripped the city of its cultural defense; then, in a desperate gamble, I threw all 4 of my catapults at the defenders. My newest City Raider I Cat died. The first of my three precious CRI/Accuracy Cats met with the same fate; I fully expected to lose all of them. But I got lucky; the last two CRI/Acc Cats both killed enemy Longbowmen against odds in the 30-35% range! My Swordsmen and finally my Axeman were able to finish the job:



Disappointingly, though Mehmed has build several wonders, none of them are in his former capital:



Oh well, I now own the Hindu holy city (though it doesn't have a shrine yet--darn). That gave me instant visibility into the other Hindu cities. Here, for example, is the garrison of the nearest Ottoman city (and new capital), Edirne:



I decided to stop there. Below is the saved game file. I'll follow this round summary post with a "state of the world" update and a discussion of several decision points.

Ankara ,as i said, will be a SUPER CITY becuase you have enough food to work everthing and some Production, AND some great commerce

Damn, that stack in Edirne is murder. I'd say let up for the moment, until you have Samurai. Then finish him and move on to Germany...

Round 4, Part 2: The State of the World, 575 AD

So, first things first. The Ottoman cities I've captured are poorly defended. I don't have Feudalism for Longbowmen nor Machinery for Samurai. Mehmed now has Longbows, and I'll bet he's researching Civil Service for Macemen right now (he already has Machinery, and Music as well--in fact, he built Notre Dame!). Just out of curiosity, I went to see what Mehmed would be willing to offer for 10 turns of peace:



Hmmm, no techs, but a nice amount of gold. Not that I need it in a big way. My concern is defending my captured cities until I can build better units and move them north, and/or upgrade existing ones. But declaring war on Mehmed again will earn me another diplomatic demerit with Frederick and Julius. So, first discussion point: make peace with Mehmed, or keep going despite the risk?

Perhaps the tech situation will enlighten us...





I checked, and Julius will trade Machinery to me for Civil Service, just as Frederick will trade Feudalism to me for it. I'm loathe to part with a powerful tech like CS, however. In 5 turns I'll have my next Great Scientist in Kyoto, and I could use him for Philosophy, which could be used as trading fodder instead; I'd pretty much have Machinery in the bag by then, but I could probably get Feudalism for it from Freddy, and maybe Music from Julius along with a couple of spare turns for Machinery. The temptation, however, is to get Feudalism and Machinery for Longbowmen and Samurai now, not in 5 turns. Whaddya think?

Just to give you a complete picture, here's a look at the existing trades:



I canceled the Open Borders agreement with Frederick. I saw no reason to make things easy for him. He added another city just south of the wine down there, so I'm inclined to make it difficult for him to do anything with those cities.

The domestic advisor:



Yeah, pretty much oriented towards military!

The power graph:



Demographics:



Well, it wouldn't be an ALC if I wasn't dead friggin' last in GNP, now, would it?

And, finally, the map, with resources...



...and without.



Here I went with a fractal map to try to get away from the typical continents map, and look at what I wound up with!

I myself think it makes sense to keep the war with Mehmed going. He's down to three cities; all I have to do is hold on to the existing ones, and if I can rush War Elephants to them, I think I can do that. He has Longbowmen, granted, but those aren't offensive units. He'll soon have Macemen, I think, but they don't have any advantages versus WEs other than equal strength. I may have to tolerate some pillaging before I'm ready to take him on.

This also, I think, argues against trading CS to anyone--I mean, both Julie and Freddy are friendly with Mehmed, so who says they wouldn't trade it to him, and cheap, if he's already partly researched it? No, it would be far better to trade Philosophy to them. Maybe one of them will even build Angkor Wat for me.

So at this stage it looks like I'll finish off Mehmed once I have Samurai. What next? Turn about-face and swing back over Frederick? Or turn right against Rome?

What about techs? After Machinery, I think Engineering for Pikemen and especially Trebuchets, not to mention 3 moves on roads, makes the most sense for warring. Then Optics, perhaps? If we're thinking of invading other civs on whatever other continents exist, an extra movement point for our ships from the circumnavigation race will be helpful. Then, and only then, do I think a crack at the Liberalism prize would make sense.

My economy needs help, obviously. I've had to focus on military builds and will have to continue to do so--then I've got to get some courthouses and a few markets going.

I also need to generate a Great Prophet somehow to put a money-making shrine in Istanbul (which will likely be the Wall Street city). Confucianism has spread to some of my cities, and if I get Taoism from Philosophy, I could spread those faiths, build their temples in one city, and run three priests to generate a GP. It'll obviously have to be a city with mucho food.

I'm tempted to try this in my capital, but the GS points from the Great Library make a GP less than certain. I haven't built the National Epic yet, which could figure into this. I'd prefer to put the NE in Kyoto, but perhaps I should think about a GP farm for a change. Maybe in Istanbul once it's out of revolt?

I look forward to everyone's responses!

Lance of Llanwy said:

Damn, that stack in Edirne is murder. I'd say let up for the moment, until you have Samurai. Then finish him and move on to Germany...

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You think so? A Longbowman, a Horse Archer, 2 Cats, an Axe, and a Spear? I think the AI is likely to keep most of them at home for defense. He may let loose the HA for pillaging, and maybe send a Cat along. Hardly an imposing counter-offensive.

Granted, I don't want to try to take that city until I have reinforcements, but I think I could do it just with a bunch of Catapults and War Elephants, which I'm building. Not to mention my 2 CRII Swordsmen (who will be upgraded to Samurai, natch).

Another thing I think I will do once I have Machinery and Feudalism is get several Samurai in my cities' build queues, along with a few Catapults and WEs, then switch to Feudalism to pump them out with the additional XPs.

Scuicide your samurais when you get them. You don't need them anymore after Chemistry

aelf said:

Scuicide your samurais when you get them. You don't need them anymore after Chemistry

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You sure about that? What about the ones with CRIII, promotions that Grenadiers can't get? Were you maybe thinking of Steel and Cannons instead?

I'd see if you can get tech from Mehmed first to get peace before deciding whether or not you'll continue the war. True, you'd get another hit from Freddy and Julius for another declaration of war on Mehmed, but if you can get Mehmed to part with some tech, that could balance it out. If you can't get tech, then forget peace with Mehmed and just finish him off.

I'd definitely not trade Civil Service. In fact, when you do lightbulb Philosophy with your GS, you may want to avoid trading that to Caesar, since he's doing pretty well for himself in terms of tech, and wait to see if Freddy gets some gold before offering it to him. It would be good to get at least some gold along with Feudalism.

After Machinery, Engineering should be next, and if you do get Feudalism in trade, don't forget Guilds. Knights can be very useful for dealing with pillaging units and can attack cities with weakened defenses.

As far as whether Freddy or Caesar comes next, I'd analyze that situation after Mehmed is gone and you've rebuilt your economy a bit. Right now, Caesar is ahead in terms of power and tech but Freddy is ahead in terms of overall score, but given how Caesar is doing, he could pass Freddy in the score department.

More than likely, you may want to target Caesar next... but again, that depends on the situation after Mehmed is gone.